List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

 

[The_Steadier]

Should have heard what we were saying about it last year after round 6 when we were 5-1!

Some of us at that time were saying it was a mirage and we were about to fall off a cliff because we were unconvinving in those wins and about to come up against proper challenging teams.

Which of course is how it panned out.

Very different now though- we have beaten good teams in very convincing fashion and with a mountain of key injuries.
Not reliant on max kicking bags and/or playing 3 crap quarters and 1 incredible quarter etc.

 

[bird_man]

People conveniently forget that we turned 1 pick into Hill, Howard and Ryder.

I can't believe people watch Brad Hill play & regret that we have him on our list. It's not a blunder in any stretch.. he is a star now that he has a fair dinkum coach!

Dayne Beams for 2 x 1st rounders, Bryce Gibbs for the same... hell even Stocker for a future 1st... now they're blunders!

Except that’s not quite true

We had to also give up a 2nd round pick, Blake Acres and another late pick for Hill.

It was a massive trade for a player that I’ll admit is performing better now, but no where near as well as he should for what was given up.

We got Howard/Ryder for what was essentially an early 2nd once we did the pick swap. That tells me we could have got that deal done without moving on pick 6.

There’s no way in the world I’d do that Hill trade if we had our time again.

 

[Joffaboy]

Except that’s not quite true

We had to also give up a 2nd round pick, Blake Acres and another late pick for Hill.

It was a massive trade for a player that I’ll admit is performing better now, but no where near as well as he should for what was given up.

We got Howard/Ryder for what was essentially an early 2nd once we did the pick swap. That tells me we could have got that deal done without moving on pick 6.

There’s no way in the world I’d do that Hill trade if we had our time again.

there were 5 players nominate us, we needed to swap pick to accommodate all, we needed to use pick 6 to do it. And I would still do the Hill deal, under Lyon he is showing what he was brought in for.

5 of the 7 players from 2019/20 were in the side on Saturday, all playing great football. Byrnes was there as well playing great football.

I know it is inconvenient that this happened but that is what happened.

 

[bird_man]

there were 5 players nominate us, we needed to swap pick to accommodate all, we needed to use pick 6 to do it. And I would still do the Hill deal, under Lyon he is showing what he was brought in for.

5 of the 7 players from 2019/20 were in the side on Saturday, all playing great football. Byrnes was there as well playing great football.

I know it is inconvenient that this happened but that is what happened.

I doubt we would have had to have done that deal if not for Hill.

Hill was the only one that was going to cost us big.

Nothing inconvenient about it, I just see it as a mistake that we didn’t have to make.

Butler was a nothing pick, Jones pick 30 something and Howard/Ryder essentially an early 2nd.

All those deal could have got done without giving up 6 if Hill wasn’t involved. It may have meant a bit more shuffling around which may be the inconvenient part you are talking about but it would have gotten done.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I think it's a fair argument. Probably should have built through the draft first. It's 3 years into their St Kilda careers and we have been disappointing. I think even the club has acknowledged they were on the wrong track. It's worked out to get us a few wins but it might take us longer to get to a top of the ladder sustainable side because of it.

It is what it is and you can't change it but you can acknowledge it. There is a reason that clubs build up through the draft and then top up with established talent for needs. If you don't have the old guys keeping you middling you get better access to the prime picks so you make the rebuild quicker.

Higgins you aren't buying a finished article at least, that makes more sense where you get a young player who hasn't got anywhere near their peak who isn't getting opportunity.

I reckon the club was expecting a lot more from the kids they had at that time.
Coff, Clark, Clav, Pato, King, Bytel looked a pretty appealing group when you think Gresh and JB were also young.
There was nothing wrong with the plan except that the kids got utterly smashed with serious injuries and the appeal of Moorabbin to the top end player market was ZERO.
And whilst we can say that building from the draft may have been preferable, we made the mistake of investing in compromised drafts before and the whole covid mess largely screwed 2 of the 3 drafts during the period you're talking about.
The 2019 draft has not been a great year and I'm not sure we'd be better off since we don't know who the club would have picked (McAsey??). We got Byrnes and still hopes for Leo.
2020 was utter dig shit and we rightly sat out but still have some ongoing prospects.
2021 was absolutely stellar.
2022 is also looking a bumper crop
2018 also worked out ok-ish in hindsight

I honestly think the plan was just to keep the fans engaged whilst they rebuilt the club's revenue base and then football dpt over 4-5 years.
The lack of 30+ year olds on the list and the influx of youth in the last 2 years says to me that the list build is roughly where it was intended to be and the disconnect is the club knew fans wouldn't cop a 5 year timeline and so it wasn't advertised.
Ratts, although they would have hoped for the best, was just the rebound boyfriend after the long sour marriage and before the next marriage. He kept us distracted for a time.

Whilst the club acknowledged they had not managed to execute the list strategy in full, that was restricted to the inability to attract top end FA's and with the understanding that that is a fixed reality they have pivoted somewhat to a focus on bayside bread targets whilst still perusing the previous options.

I know I'm in the minority on this but l just don't see failure. I see evolution, and a disconnect in expectations V's deliverables.

 

[ScrappyDo]

All I know is the list looks better than it has in a long time. Someone did something right to get us there.

No, no no. It happened miraculously over night, some time between when Gags was fired and round 1. No one really has any idea though because our drafting was non existent and trading terrible.
It just happened ok.

 

[Sully111]

No, no no. It happened miraculously over night, some time between when Gags was fired and round 1. No one really has any idea though because our drafting was non existent and trading terrible.
It just happened ok.

Oh....

Ok

 

[sammm]

Stocker was a lazy fat campaigner with a smoking hot rich girlfriend while he was with us. He needed a kick up the ass. Nobody ever doubted his ability to play but it wasn't going to be at Carlton. Good for the kid for putting some work in over the pre season to get fitter.

Caminiti we were planning on picking up but couldn't offer him a spot on our AFL list as we already have a good group of tall forwards. Good player from the looks of it and good work by the Saints for swooping in to nab him before we could.

And when you have gun players on every line but still carrying blokes like Obrien, Martin, Silvagni etc I'd have to disagree. Players like Acres, Hewett etc are on low coin but are clear upgrades on players we had without being match winning superstars.

o adoubt Acres is on low money. if so he would have stayed at Freo

 

[Joffaboy]

I doubt we would have had to have done that deal if not for Hill.

Hill was the only one that was going to cost us big.

Nothing inconvenient about it, I just see it as a mistake that we didn’t have to make.

Butler was a nothing pick, Jones pick 30 something and Howard/Ryder essentially an early 2nd.

All those deal could have got done without giving up 6 if Hill wasn’t involved. It may have meant a bit more shuffling around which may be the inconvenient part you are talking about but it would have gotten done.

Good points, however Hill was involved and for me he would be the only one that in hindsight was not the greatest value. 3 of 5 years not performing the way we would have liked, hopefully with Lyon as coach we get the very best out of Hill.

This is not a sniping question, but were you at the game? I have seen Hill run hard before, but his running on Saturday night was as elite as it gets, it stretched the Essendon zone and structure to breaking point time and time again. He looks even better now he has a whole team of gut runners. Even with this group of gut running endurance beasts he still looks head and shoulders above anyone else in the team.

The game was over, 3 or 4 minutes to go, Hill had run about 500ks during the course of the game, runs forty metres at full tilt to effect an OOB spoil on the Essendon player. that is elite buyin.

 

[John2010362340]

NAS has resigned… Not sure on the details or how long but he’s locked away.

 

[#gosaintas]

Nas has signed on apparently

 

[sammm]

Ryder cost us no draft capital. He was basically thrown into that trade for nothing.
Howard was 23 when we got him. Still very young for a key position player. We could have taken the chances of grabbing a key defender in the draft and not taken him, but why?

He's been a servicible player and it's probably a 50-50 at best you'd find a better player in the draft.

We could have developed a kid in the role and come out 3 years later with another Hugh Goddard.

Our defence has been really good over the last 12 months, no complaints from me. And we also have a couple of key defenders developing below them.

The Hill trade us the only one I really look back on with regrets. Unfortunately it's a decent sized blunder. If we had have used that draft capital on bringing in a star at pick 6 things look a lot different.

the Hannerbry trade was worse than Hill. i just don't think Ratts knew how to play him.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Except that’s not quite true

We had to also give up a 2nd round pick, Blake Acres and another late pick for Hill.

It was a massive trade for a player that I’ll admit is performing better now, but no where near as well as he should for what was given up.

We got Howard/Ryder for what was essentially an early 2nd once we did the pick swap. That tells me we could have got that deal done without moving on pick 6.

There’s no way in the world I’d do that Hill trade if we had our time again.

Well I suppose it's an opinion based business & I'm wrapt that Hilly is in RWB.

We split #6 when Freo wanted more for Hill... got back draft capital that got us Howard too... no guarantee we get Doug for that 2nd rounder. Blacres was a crowd fave but have we really missed him?

We keep that pick & take McAsey or Serong & we may or may not have another promising kid... probably more likely that their development is stunted just like Hunter & Coff due to injury & sh1thouse standards across the club.

IMO a massive trade is 2 x firsts for single player. Not a 1st, 2nd, fringe player & junk pick for two best 22 players who are critically important plus a vet who was a fantastic influence for the 3 seasons he was with us (I find it amazing that some people are now denigrating what Paddy did with us).

Who knows, maybe Hilly's influence will help us keep Nas in RWB too.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

o adoubt Acres is on low money. if so he would have stayed at Freo

Acres is reported as being on 300-350k. Freo offered him something putrid like 150-200k similar to a 3rd year player.

‘Steal of the trade period’: How Blues pounced on ‘lowballed’ Docker in trade heist

‘Steal of the trade period’: How Blues pounced on ‘lowballed’ Docker in trade heist

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[sammm]

Should have heard what we were saying about it last year after round 6 when we were 5-1!

yes very true, however the wins were paper thin, if you really looked at our wins last year they were based on 1 quarter or 2 quarters of good football and the rest rubbish.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Well I suppose it's an opinion based business & I'm wrapt that Hilly is in RWB.

We split #6 when Freo wanted more for Hill... got back draft capital that got us Howard too... no guarantee we get Doug for that 2nd rounder. Blacres was a crowd fave but have we really missed him?

We keep that pick & take McAsey or Serong & we may or may not have another promising kid... probably more likely that their development is stunted just like Hunter & Coff due to injury & sh1thouse standards across the club.

IMO a massive trade is 2 x firsts for single player. Not a 1st, 2nd, fringe player & junk pick for two best 22 players who are critically important plus a vet who was a fantastic influence for the 3 seasons he was with us (I find it amazing that some people are now denigrating what Paddy did with us).

Who knows, maybe Hilly's influence will help us keep Nas in RWB too.

Yes pick 6 in an average to poor 2019 draft, and pick 40 (2nd round!) In the most compromised draft ever.
For Hill, Doogs and Paddy.
That's a very good result IMO.

 

[botts]

Nas has signed on apparently

Hook it to my veins. Love this

 

[botts]

https://t.co/tTgHyI8stx

Can anyone get this article up

 

[bird_man]

the Hannerbry trade was worse than Hill. i just don't think Ratts knew how to play him.

Hannebery cost us bugger all in a trade though, mostly the money

 

[bird_man]

Well I suppose it's an opinion based business & I'm wrapt that Hilly is in RWB.

We split #6 when Freo wanted more for Hill... got back draft capital that got us Howard too... no guarantee we get Doug for that 2nd rounder. Blacres was a crowd fave but have we really missed him?

We keep that pick & take McAsey or Serong & we may or may not have another promising kid... probably more likely that their development is stunted just like Hunter & Coff due to injury & sh1thouse standards across the club.

IMO a massive trade is 2 x firsts for single player. Not a 1st, 2nd, fringe player & junk pick for two best 22 players who are critically important plus a vet who was a fantastic influence for the 3 seasons he was with us (I find it amazing that some people are now denigrating what Paddy did with us).

Who knows, maybe Hilly's influence will help us keep Nas in RWB too.

Hill for 10, future 2nd, and Blake Acres is what I’d consider a very big price for an outside player

Not many players get traded for 2 x firsts. Usually there is something coming back so not far off what we paid for him really.

There’s always a way to look at something with rose coloured glasses but I just can’t see how this one was a win for us.

Each to their own I guess

 

[bergholt]

Acres is reported as being on 300-350k. Freo offered him something putrid like 150-200k similar to a 3rd year player.

‘Steal of the trade period’: How Blues pounced on ‘lowballed’ Docker in trade heist

‘Steal of the trade period’: How Blues pounced on ‘lowballed’ Docker in trade heist

www.foxsports.com.au

Lots on here still have a soft spot for Blacres I reckon, happy to see him doing well in blue personally

 

[CursingFijian]

Naz signing a new contract is very, very good news for the club. I think it speaks to the synergy that the youngsters are developing as they face together the injury crisis.

Hopefully the little bump in output that often comes with an announcement means he has a terrific game against the Suns.

 

[tim_saints]

I think your judgement of actual onfield performance is being clouded by you also thinking about the potential of players too.

Amon has objectively outperformed nas this year on field- and is very likely to continue to do so for the next couple of years.

Of course- the fact that nas is still so young and inexperienced means nas is the far more exciting prospect- but it's important to recognise that actual on field performances to date only make up a small part of what makes nas exciting.

Amon is a thoroughly decent player that is better than nas now- and likely to remain so for the next couple of years (especially in terms of consistency and in terms of performing in big games).


Same applies with wingard- sure he's been injured and inconsistent.
But gresham hasn't?

Wingard isnt perfect but his best is just as good (if not better?) than anything gresh has produced.

Keep in mind- i suggested amon and wingard because I reckon they would basically come for free as salary dumps.

So if nas and gresh left and we got them:
1. we effectively lose nothing in terms of on field performance in the next few years.
2. we keep our draft picks (and RFA compo for gresh, and whatever we get for nas)

That then allows us to throw draft picks at the likes of gold coast for maxs brother and/or bringing in more elite kids etc .

Amon has literally been at Hawthorn 3 games?! I just don’t get your angle of him being available haha parts of what you’re saying I understand but overall I’m not really following you in regards to amon and wingard specifically

 

[tim_saints]

Naz signing a new contract is very, very good news for the club. I think it speaks to the synergy that the youngsters are developing as they face together the injury crisis.

Hopefully the little bump in output that often comes with an announcement means he has a terrific game against the Suns.

Hang on he’s signed a new contract?!

 

[Diehard Saint]

The evidence is my eyeballs. Butler and Higgins won us the game on the weekend on the back of the best game Hill as played at the club and probably since his time at the Hawks.
Howard is our most effective kick going at 88% DE.
If you can't see the influence Paddy Ryder had on the club and the young players, I feel sorry for you.
Crouch cost us nothing and is playing excellent in an under football.
In 2019 we had holes everywhere because of terrible drafting and trading. We had to stabilise the list.
We had to start building through the draft, got King and Bytel in 2018, 5 oven ready AFL players plus Ryan Byrne in 19, Callum Wilkie in the rookie draft.
Then in 20 we got Crouch for free, Higgins a second rounder and Alisson who looks a bust.
So apart from Jones who is an injury bust and Ryder who has retired the other 5 are first 22, Wilkie is an AA, and Byrnes is playing excellent football. Alison is ordinary and Bytel has not cemented his spot.

Maybe we should have picked a kid instead of Stocker and Wood as well.

If we went down your path, we would have been bottom 4 still, terrible crowds, membership going south and Lyon wouldn't have touched us with a barge pole.
A couple of speculated picks would not have put us on the road to success, quite the opposite. And you always talk about our terrible drafting, what make you think we would have got the right kids, not a swag of Alison's?
Gallagher did his job, gave us a base and now SoS and Ross will finish the job.

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If I recall correctly, in the president’s report on the review they did, the one thing that he said he didn’t have a problem with was that drafting/trading strategy, which was necessary at the time. It was one of the few things he did not criticise.

And it has panned out pretty well with all those players, barring Zak’s injuries, especially if we get another couple of years with Hilly playing the way he has been recently.