List Mgmt. 2025 List Mismanagement and Trading

[George Kramer]

OK, but the point was he's not going to be ready for us as a lead-ruck in the next what, 5 years / 6 years / 7 years ... ?


I just don't see the develop your own from scratch option as being a better road to getting a ruck

I don't think all other clubs have success with that strategy either.



Maybe. We have a ruck right now, and a possible line to new one next year. I don't think our backup is great, would have preferred a better backup option from a trade than Strachan.



I think he's a decent option. I do see that as a better option than having a developing ruck from the draft.

Had we drafted a ruck in the last 5-7 years and we got our selection right, they’d be ready to ruck now and we wouldn’t be massively overpaying Draper.

How is that not a better strategy than what you’re ok with?

 

[baldandbroke]

No I don’t. I’m saying that we haven’t played finals because we have been a poor club and made stupid decisions.

I’m comparing that to the judgement shown by better clubs and they all have young developing rucks.

Therefore I don’t think we are smarter than the rest of the competition by basically being the only club without a young developing ruck, I consider it another stupid decision. Proof? We’ve dropped a club leader who is our lead ruck 2 years in a row and we are going in with the same 2 rucks in 2025 when we need to make finals.

That's a long bow in my eye GK.

You know I agree with you on how we have been managed as a club, how many stupid decisions we have franked.

I do not think that our ruck strategy is even on the top 20 issues that need to be addressed.

Isolating this one area and linking it to our general stupidity doesn't float with me. I don't see us having ROB for 2024 and then someone like Draper after him as a massive problem.

It would be like someone saying look at our young forward line - Rankine / Thilthorpe / Fogarty / Rachele - we are a genius club!!

 

[Redline]

From a list management perspective. We have lots of flexibility.

We can re-sign ROB/Strachan. Or we can poach

A quick 5 minute search lists these players as out of contract in 2025. Both Geelong/Carltons DeKoning's / Mason Cox / Nick Bryan / Visentini (Both Essendon & Port)/ Reidy / Stanley / Lloyd Meek / Verrall / Teakle / Maley / Soldo / Hayes Brown / Ladhams - Plus we are linked to Draper.

Easiest position on the footy field to get an adequate starter for not much capital.

I think Strachan will definetley go at season end. I think he will retire from AFL.

Wouldn't surprise me if ROB moved clubs so my guess is we will be in the market for at least two.

 

[George Kramer]

That's a long bow in my eye GK.

You know I agree with you on how we have been managed as a club, how many stupid decisions we have franked.

I do not think that our ruck strategy is even on the top 20 issues that need to be addressed.

Isolating this one area and linking it to our general stupidity doesn't float with me. I don't see us having ROB for 2024 and then someone like Draper after him as a massive problem.

It would be like someone saying look at our young forward line - Rankine / Thilthorpe / Fogarty / Rachele - we are a genius club!!

No they are just standard choices clubs are supposed to get right with low draft picks.

You’re advocating paying an ordinary ruck in Draper massive dollars to get him over and you don’t think that’s a stupid decision to go along with the stupid decisions we’ve made in that period? I think it makes my point perfectly.

 

[AFC979810]

I do not think that our ruck strategy is even on the top 20 issues that need to be addressed.

Nail. Hammer. Head.

 

[George Kramer]

Nail. Hammer. Head.

And yet you’re ok with paying Draper a big contract, contradictory isnt it?

 

[baldandbroke]

Had we drafted a ruck in the last 5-7 years and we got our selection right, they’d be ready to ruck now and we wouldn’t be massively overpaying Draper.

How is that not a better strategy than what you’re ok with?

I guess the bit that doesn't add up for me is the bit "we got our selection right" and also the development of said ruck. I know you don't think either of those things is easy or something we have been good at recently.

Look back 5 years at the rucks from the draft that were going to be the next big thing ... when it comes to rucks, I want to see the finished product before I put my money down. It just doesn't equate to better premiership outcomes from my perspective.

 

[AFC979810]

And yet you’re ok with paying Draper a big contract, contradictory isnt it?

Never said that.

 

[Dangarman]

Borlase to spend his SANFL time playing second ruck to Strachan.

 

[baldandbroke]

No they are just standard choices clubs are supposed to get right with low draft picks.

You’re advocating paying an ordinary ruck in Draper massive dollars to get him over and you don’t think that’s a stupid decision to go along with the stupid decisions we’ve made in that period? I think it makes my point perfectly.

So are you advocating spending a low draft pick on a ruck? Surely not. The rucks all went after pick 50 - even the really promising ones!

Also, we have made some good decisions in the recent period - surely you see that. We aren't 100% wrong on everything.

I don't think it is reasonable to say - "We extended our underperforming coach when we should not have, we triggered Smith's contract extension when we should have left him in the SANFL, we kept underperforming players on the list when we had a chance to pick up good talent in a super-draft - therefore everything we have done is rubbish."

 

[George Kramer]

I guess the bit that doesn't add up for me is the bit "we got our selection right" and also the development of said ruck. I know you don't think either of those things is easy or something we have been good at recently.

Look back 5 years at the rucks from the draft that were going to be the next big thing ... when it comes to rucks, I want to see the finished product before I put my money down. It just doesn't equate to better premiership outcomes from my perspective.

But you don’t want to even use an average pick on drafting rucks, you’re ok with going in with shit rucks in 2025 when we need to make finals and you’re ok with paying an average ruck a big contract.

 

[George Kramer]

So are you advocating spending a low draft pick on a ruck? Surely not. The rucks all went after pick 50 - even the really promising ones!

Also, we have made some good decisions in the recent period - surely you see that. We aren't 100% wrong on everything.

I don't think it is reasonable to say - "We extended our underperforming coach when we should not have, we triggered Smith's contract extension when we should have left him in the SANFL, we kept underperforming players on the list when we had a chance to pick up good talent in a super-draft - therefore everything we have done is rubbish."

No I have not said use a low pick on a ruck. You’re trying to claim we could be classified as geniuses for getting our low picks right, I’m saying that should just be good acceptable practise.

I’ve said for the last 5 years we should have invested in developing rucks, grab them late, I don’t care, but we have not drafted one now you’re advocating paying big money for an average one.

I’m saying that in this case I don’t think we are smarter than the rest of the competition especially when it’s been proven we aren’t smart.

 

[baldandbroke]

But you don’t want to even use an average pick on drafting rucks, you’re ok with going in with shit rucks in 2025 when we need to make finals and you’re ok with paying an average ruck a big contract.

Again GK one argument at a time.

Yes - I am in the "don't draft a ruck" camp. Not even at an average pick.

You are saying use a <EDIT> draft pick to get a young ruck and then spend 5-years developing them in the hope they become something worthwhile. (not without a significant cost attached btw)

The "big contract" stuff is just the way it works. We don't pay ROB nothing, I bet he's in our upper echelon of payments.

As far as "going in with shit rucks in 2025" - I do not believe that our rucks will be a significant contributor to the why if we don't make finals in 2025.

 

[George Kramer]

Again GK one argument at a time.

Yes - I am in the "don't draft a ruck" camp. Not even at an average pick.

You are saying use a <EDIT> draft pick to get a young ruck and then spend 5-years developing them in the hope they become something worthwhile.

The "big contract" stuff is just the way it works. We don't pay ROB nothing, I bet he's in our upper echelon of payments.

As far as "going in with shit rucks in 2025" - I do not believe that our rucks will be a significant contributor to the why if we don't make finals in 2025.

Never said use low picks.

You’re ok with paying average players big dollars instead of drafting, ok seems fair.

Even after you’ve said having an average ruck will not impact our chances of making finals in 2025 and he wasn’t average to be dropped, we copped sustained run of poor games.

Anyway, convo been done to death.

 

[baldandbroke]

Never said use low picks.

You’re ok with paying average players big dollars instead for drafting, ok seems fair.

Anyway, convo been done to death.

Ditto - I'm not sure which way is right either.

 

[Mutineer]

OK, but the point was he's not going to be ready for us as a lead-ruck in the next what, 5 years / 6 years / 7 years ... ?


I just don't see the develop your own from scratch option as being a better road to getting a ruck

I don't think all other clubs have success with that strategy either.



Maybe. We have a ruck right now, and a possible line to new one next year. I don't think our backup is great, would have preferred a better backup option from a trade than Strachan.



I think he's a decent option. I do see that as a better option than having a developing ruck from the draft.

Disagree re Dodson taking that long, shares a very similar draft profile (taller) to Luke Jackson who seems to handle the ruck OK when required. Sure not likely to play in 2025 but 5 years, nah. Athleticism and ball skills already better than a lot of AFL ruckman.

 

[Mutineer]

Borlase to spend his SANFL time playing second ruck to Strachan.

You mean he's not Tex's understudy at this point?

 

[Mutineer]

I'd be very surprised if we'd thought Dodson was going to go where he ended up going we wouldn't have made sure we had the pick and a list spot open.

Cannot understand why we've placed so much faith in Strachan as back up to this point but I'm pretty sure that experiment has finally been binned.

IMO we should always have a mature aged ruck as decent back up and a young developing ruck behind them. Only probably have to use a late/ rookie pick on the youngster in most cases anyhow.

 

[baldandbroke]

Disagree re Dodson taking that long, shares a very similar draft profile (taller) to Luke Jackson who seems to handle the ruck OK when required. Sure not likely to play in 2025 but 5 years, nah. Athleticism and ball skills already better than a lot of AFL ruckman.

Dodson wasn't even the first ruck chosen was he? How many games has he even played? Luke Jackson was a top-5 pick that was the #2 ruck with Gawn at his peak as the lead ruck. We do not have that luxury in our back pocket

Also, you know there a whole lot more to being a lead ruck at AFL level than athleticism and ball skills!!

 

[Mutineer]

Dodson wasn't even the first ruck chosen was he? How many games has he even played? Luke Jackson was a top-5 pick that was the #2 ruck with Gawn at his peak as the lead ruck. We do not have that luxury in our back pocket

Also, you know there a whole lot more to being a lead ruck at AFL level than athleticism and ball skills!!

Have you actually watched a lot of Dodson?

 

[baldandbroke]

Have you actually watched a lot of Dodson?

Not as much as you - that is why I asked the questions Bicks!!

He moves brilliantly from what I have seen.

 

[jackster83]

I'd be very surprised if we'd thought Dodson was going to go where he ended up going we wouldn't have made sure we had the pick and a list spot open.

Cannot understand why we've placed so much faith in Strachan as back up to this point but I'm pretty sure that experiment has finally been binned.

IMO we should always have a mature aged ruck as decent back up and a young developing ruck behind them. Only probably have to use a late/ rookie pick on the youngster in most cases anyhow.

You and I might not agree with it, but the club is clearly very content with Strachan as a backup.

 

[Cromulant]

Not as much as you - that is why I asked the questions Bicks!!

He moves brilliantly from what I have seen.

Ironically his club teammate and 2nd ruck was chosen before him

 

[Mutineer]

You and I might not agree with it, but the club is clearly very content with Strachan as a backup.

They might have been before this season but after his dismal AFL effort this year I think that changed dramatically. Hamish admitted yesterday in his interview rucks will be an area we're focusing on going forward.

 

[Punchy Bassett]

We've also got Toby Murray and Thilthorpe

I know people hate the idea that either of these guys being seen as ruckman.....but perhaps they are being seen as ruck options ? Just not pure rucks

I've got zero issues with Murray being looked at as a ruck, I honestly don't see how he makes the team otherwise. Unless the plan is to have Murray and TT float between ruck and forward.