Review Cats beat Lions by 10 points.

[iameviljez]

Hawkins' biggest haul is 7 goals. Riewoldt has only kicked more than that on 4 occasions. Kennedy has kicked more than that on 5 occasions.

You're suggesting that something that Kennedy and Riewoldt have done only a handful of times each anyway is what makes "the difference" between them and Hawk? Maybe if Riewoldt and Kennedy were booting 8+ goal bags once or twice a season on average I'd agree with you, but this is something they do once every three or four seasons.

When we are talking about the difference between being one of the best tall forwards of their generation, or one of the best players of their era, those really dominant, memorable performances matter.

Ablett Sr would not be seen the same way without those three 14-goal hauls.

I do think that the big Hawk is at least better than Riewoldt, but if he was to go down as “best of his era”, he probably needed a few really big bags.

 

[PhatBoy]

When we are talking about the difference between being one of the best tall forwards of their generation, or one of the best players of their era, those really dominant, memorable performances matter.

Ablett Sr would not be seen the same way without those three 14-goal hauls.

I do think that the big Hawk is at least better than Riewoldt, but if he was to go down as “best of his era”, he probably needed a few really big bags.

Not the most quotable or reliable source but Garry Lyon certainly thinks he is (behind Buddy)

 

[Pollywaffle]

One game does stick in the memory, against the Dogs at KP, I think mid-season 2017 when the dogs were the premiers, they brought incredible heat in that game and we more than matched them. Just incredible tackling pressure from both sides. I felt like that game sort of broke them that year. They threw everything at us and came off second best. I do agree to some extent that we've gone into our shells a bit in finals. Players tend to revert to habit when the pressure is on and we haven't been quite well-drilled enough in a system to make it second-nature.

Many of the players from our dominant era (07-11ish) relished the fight. Pressure brought out their best. Was that nature or nurture?
We are told that Bomber put a lot of emphasis on ‘one on one’ drills and was careful not to pit certain players against one another in case they ‘killed’ each other. A lot of our current players are like choirboys in comparison, and seem to go into their shells a bit when blowtorch is to the belly. Can that be coached out ? I don't know, but from what I have seen this year there does seem to be a harder edge to our playing which isn't a bad sign. Maybe just my imagination.

 

[Partridge]

Many of the players from our dominant era (07-11ish) relished the fight. Pressure brought out their best. Was that nature or nurture?
We are told that Bomber put a lot of emphasis on ‘one on one’ drills and was careful not to pit certain players against one another in case they ‘killed’ each other. A lot of our current players are like choirboys in comparison, and seem to go into their shells a bit when blowtorch is to the belly. Can that be coached out ? I don't know, but from what I have seen this year there does seem to be a harder edge to our playing which isn't a bad sign. Maybe just my imagination.

Like it's been for the last 5-6 years, we're not going to know for sure until September.

 

[iameviljez]

Not the most quotable or reliable source but Garry Lyon certainly thinks he is (behind Buddy)

Yeah, but he is still a step behind Buddy and on par with Kennedy IMO. One of the best key forwards of his specific generation, but not in the same echelon as Riewoldt or Franklin.

 

[catempire]

Yeah, but he is still a step behind Buddy and on par with Kennedy IMO. One of the best key forwards of his specific generation, but not in the same echelon as Riewoldt or Franklin.

Hopefully you’re talking about Nick.

 

[catempire]

Hawkins' biggest haul is 7 goals. Riewoldt has only kicked more than that on 4 occasions. Kennedy has kicked more than that on 5 occasions.

You're suggesting that something that Kennedy and Riewoldt have done only a handful of times each anyway is what makes "the difference" between them and Hawk? Maybe if Riewoldt and Kennedy were booting 8+ goal bags once or twice a season on average I'd agree with you, but this is something they do once every three or four seasons.

And to put into perspective how good Buddy is, he has done it 12 times.

 

[iameviljez]

Hopefully you’re talking about Nick.

Sure am

 

[Gunf]

Picking a stat from any type of player and ordering them is the wrong way to do it.

Goals for forwards are the most important yes but many other things need to be included in assessing players.

The same with mids you can't pick the best just from clearance numbers you need to think about the overall picture including score assists cont poss etc

In terms of forwards for Hawkins generation i would have them

1 Buddy
2 N Riewoldt
3 would be made up of multiple players like Hawkins, J Riewoldt, Kennedy, Pav etc how you want to order those depends on preference.

In the last 5 years i would have them

1 Hawkins
2 Kennedy
3 Buddy
4 J Riewoldt

 

[Seeds]

What's going on here? Were you not aware that Lincoln was playing regular games for us in the season prior to going to Brisbane? I would say the Geelong medical team got him right after so many years of his body failing him.

Also - Nakia was playing practise matches up in QLD in 2020 and they were looking to bring him into the seniors for our finals, however, it appeared that he didnt want to go too hard as he'd already organised his move to Brisbane and didnt want to risk his body. He came back for some minor surgery and because his partner was due to give birth to their child. I saw him wandering around Geelong during our finals campaign and he looked in very good nick.

That would be also our medical team who got him right.

Don't let an agenda get in the way of reality.

In the season prior to going to brisbane mccarthy played 2 senior games. In the season before that it was only 3 senior games. What is your definition of playing regular games?

 

[cats_09]

In the season prior to going to brisbane mccarthy played 2 senior games. In the season before that it was only 3 senior games. What is your definition of playing regular games?

Do VFL games not count as games played? Or is it suitable to use them as an indication of the players availablity for selection but where other reasons may be behind lack of senior appearances?

Look at another former Cat, in his last season with us, Vardy played only the 1 senior game but played 15/16 VFL games - clearly wasn't injury related why he didn't make more senior appearances that year

 

[Seeds]

Do VFL games not count as games played? Or is it suitable to use them as an indication of the players availablity for selection but where other reasons may be behind lack of senior appearances?

Look at shorte former Cat, in his last season with us, Vardy played only the 1 senior game but played 15/16 VFL games - clearly wasn't injury related why he didn't make more senior appearances that year

Cos vardys injuries had made him ordinary.

how many vfl games did mccarthy play in his final season with us? My guess is very little as well.

 

[BORIS332]

Picking a stat from any type of player and ordering them is the wrong way to do it.

Goals for forwards are the most important yes but many other things need to be included in assessing players.

The same with mids you can't pick the best just from clearance numbers you need to think about the overall picture including score assists cont poss etc

In terms of forwards for Hawkins generation i would have them

1 Buddy
2 N Riewoldt
3 would be made up of multiple players like Hawkins, J Riewoldt, Kennedy, Pav etc how you want to order those depends on preference.

In the last 5 years i would have them

1 Hawkins
2 Kennedy
3 Buddy
4 J Riewoldt

I’d have Buddy, N.Riewoldt, Pav and Tredrea all ahead of Hawkins.

 

[Gunf]

I’d have Buddy, N.Riewoldt, Pav and Tredrea all ahead of Hawkins.

I put Pav in the same tier as Hawkins some have him in front some behind could make an argument for either

Tredrea i actually have in the generation before Hawkins as he retired pretty much as Hawkins and co began

 

[PhatBoy]

I’d have Buddy, N.Riewoldt, Pav and Tredrea all ahead of Hawkins.

Tredrea’s peak was higher but there is virtually no metric across their careers where you could say he’s definitively ahead of Hawkins. In fact as far as their overall numbers go they are eerily similar

I would have Pavlich ahead as an all round footballer but not necessarily as a forward

 

[Partridge]

I put Pav in the same tier as Hawkins some have him in front some behind could make an argument for either

Tredrea i actually have in the generation before Hawkins as he retired pretty much as Hawkins and co began

I'd have Hawkins. Hawkins was thrown in as a key forward from the very beginning with zero protection.

Pavlich was allowed to be a seagull for a few seasons while he matured.

 

[00VicWard001]

In the season prior to going to brisbane mccarthy played 2 senior games. In the season before that it was only 3 senior games. What is your definition of playing regular games?

VFL.

And also those senior games were at the end of the season, meaning that his body was right for the rigours of AFL.

 

[Seeds]

VFL.

And also those senior games were at the end of the season, meaning that his body was right for the rigours of AFL.

After the failed groin injection Menzel played the last 6 games of the afl season before he left. His body was stuffed. 5 games in two years does not suggest hus body was right.

 

[cats_09]

After the failed groin injection Menzel played the last 6 games of the afl season before he left. His body was stuffed. 5 games in two years does not suggest hus body was right.

5 senior games, plus numerous VFL games and his own admission that he's body was right before leaving Geelong, meaning he was able to complete a full preseason with his new club

 

[Seeds]

5 senior games, plus numerous VFL games and his own admission that he's body was right before leaving Geelong, meaning he was able to complete a full preseason with his new club

Again how many vfl games?

cockatoo played lots of vfl games in his last season with us. he wasnt playing afl cos his body wasnt right.

 

[cats_09]

Again how many vfl games?

cockatoo played lots of vfl games in his last season with us. he wasnt playing afl cos his body wasnt right.

You know that's false about Cockatoo - he was match fit & could easily have been selected had he actually applied himself during the scratch matches. But as per multiple reports from across the 2020 season, he was holding something back and form wasn't warranting selection

As for Linc's and his VFL games played - difficult to find out some of the stats from previous years now that they've switched to the AFL website. But as repeatedly mentioned, he was fit for a good portion of the season and left us in the best condition he'd been in - he didn't spend his final two seasons in the medical rooms, as much as you seen to want to believe to be the case

 

[Seeds]

Tredrea’s peak was higher but there is virtually no metric across their careers where you could say he’s definitively ahead of Hawkins. In fact as far as their overall numbers go they are eerily similar

I would have Pavlich ahead as an all round footballer but not necessarily as a forward

Was it? Tredrea played in a different era And yet has a worse goal average per game then hawkins from lower games. He only kicked more than 7 goals once. That was 8 goals against a vfl level post salary capt cheating carlton. his best season was better then hawkins best season but not by a lot and he only did that once. tredrea also didnt have the supreme passing skills and dominant ruckwork skills of hawkins.

 

[Seeds]

You know that's false about Cockatoo - he was match fit & could easily have been selected had he actually applied himself during the scratch matches. But as per multiple reports from across the 2020 season, he was holding something back and form wasn't warranting selection

As for Linc's and his VFL games played - difficult to find out some of the stats from previous years now that they've switched to the AFL website. But as repeatedly mentioned, he was fit for a good portion of the season and left us in the best condition he'd been in - he didn't spend his final two seasons in the medical rooms, as much as you seen to want to believe to be the case

Oh im so sick of mods on this board attacking aboriginal players for not applying themselves. When do we call this out. narkle constantly cops it. Cockatoo, christensen, motlop and varcoe constantly copped it. The only one who doesnt is parfitt and thats only because he is the best defensive mid in the team. So sick of it.

 

[Seeds]

Yeah you post a lol. How about it being the years of wear and tear from injury that was holding him back. Yet your natural assumption was not applying himself. actually you accussed me of lying because such a view was so absolute in your mind. Cockatoo was one of the best defensive foward talents ive seen before injury curtailed him. He had incredible application defensively. The obvious assumption about not putting in as hard as he did in the past would be due to injury slowing him down. Not lack of effort. Yet you choose effort.

 

[cats_09]

Oh im so sick of mods on this board attacking aboriginal players for not applying themselves. When do we call this out. narkle constantly cops it. Cockatoo, christensen, motlop and varcoe constantly copped it. The only one who doesnt is parfitt and thats only because he is the best defensive mid in the team. So sick of it.

Seeds you seriously need to pull your head & cut the bullshit with these baseless accusations. All your doing is making some pretty damning & unfounded statements against individuals on this board

If you're so concerned about players being called "lazy" or being asked to apply themselves, why don't you show the same level of concern when it's not an indigenous player in question - like Vardy, Guthrie, Higgins, Stanley & Miers are just some of the names that quickly come to mind whom have all been called out at various times

As repeatedly shown, a players race or ethnicity has nothing to do with their attitude being called into question - the issue here seems to be with you