List Mgmt. Collingwood Trade Talk 2016 part 2 - see Mod Warning p 281

[Apex36]

Yeah was about to post that same article, one of the more detailed assessments I've seen.

I don't agree with all of it but he does hit the nail on the head that we haven't recruited any quality key position players outside of Moore and Grundy in the past few years.

Buckennara obviously has list management experience and it shows, some other so called journalists (ex players) could learn from an article like this.

I also like that he doesn't write off getting Dal Santo or Wells completely. We shouldn't, as long as it's for the right price and length.

Calling Treloar a B grader and Sidebottom an A grader was bizarre. As was his call that Broomhead is a terrible kick.

 

[TW Sherrin]

I'm expecting Hine/Club are looking at trading in a key forward. There seems to be value with key defenders 20-30 range so I reckon that will be our idea.

 

[good4footy]

what was I told this at a breakfast this morning by a my source. (take it however you like)

Daniel Wells is a Pie lock it in, told Collingwood he'll accept the deal. Likely he'll be announced first day of open Free Agency as a Pie.
WHE situation has been same, wants to come back to Melbourne wants to be a Pie.
Gubby really really wants James Stewart at the club because lack of KPF. Blues should get him.
Mayne also a lock agreed to a deal, apparently not on as much money as some say..
Marley Williams is keen on a trade but not home....wants to stay in Melbourne and Richmond are keen watch this space.
Goodyear & Gault were told yesterday they would not be offered another deal.

Thanks for passing that on. Regards Wells I'm keen for him to come to us but not sure why he is waiting to announce it if a done deal. Doesn't rely on a trade so as a free agent nothing stopping him doing so.

 

[RupetFan]

Thanks for Sharing that Info RupetFan

No worries, eveyone was a bit rowdy for some info and had the opportunity.

 

[mattys123]

Calling Treloar a B grader and Sidebottom an A grader was bizarre. As was his call that Broomhead is a terrible kick.

Yeah those parts I didn't agree with. Reckon he hasn't seen much of Broomy otherwise he wouldn't be calling him a poor kick by any means.

Still not a perfect assessment but for sure way better then most out there in the media.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[NT.Thunder]

If Mayne can find his 2012/13 form and we get him at a good price that RupertFan mentioned, why not.

 

[Roverjg]

The Hawks kicked 53-54 less goals than they did last year. Breust kicked 5 less goals than last year, but more points so his shot on goals were the same

 

[orion21]

Yeah was about to post that same article, one of the more detailed assessments I've seen.

I don't agree with all of it but he does hit the nail on the head that we haven't recruited any quality key position players outside of Moore and Grundy in the past few years.

Buckennara obviously has list management experience and it shows, some other so called journalists (ex players) could learn from an article like this.

I also like that he doesn't write off getting Dal Santo or Wells completely. We shouldn't, as long as it's for the right price and length.

Yes he is one the few people I really take notice when analysing other teams football lists. Agreed that I didn't agree with everything he said. But he is on the money I think with our lack of KPP and to may of inside players. Bucks talks about being a GRUNT team and one main area is our contested ball. Just think we have too many inside payers and perhaps that's hurt the development of JDG. And seems why Wells (I would like) Dal Santo are linked to us as free agents due to nothing to give up and would add to our outside run...

 

[TradeDraft]

Yes he is one the few people I really take notice when analysing other teams football lists. Agreed that I didn't agree with everything he said. But he is on the money I think with our lack of KPP and to may of inside players. Bucks talks about being a GRUNT team and one main area is our contested ball. Just think we have too many inside payers and perhaps that's hurt the development of JDG. And seems why Wells (I would like) Dal Santo are linked to us as free agents due to nothing to give up and would add to our outside run...

Quite Obvious we don't have enough KPP and Too Many Inside Mids

 

[TheSierBear]

I think it is overload to bring Breust in.
We, fingers crossed will get Elliott back. We are bringing in Wells and Mayne as FA. We might even recruit a crumming forward and word is that that is what the club is targeting at the draft, no I'm not saying that player is going to produce equal to Breust. You also need to consider we will have to trade for him, and he won't come cheap, I just think we'd be trading overs for someone coming out as a FA next year.

Buckenara is right, we lack KPF's and KPD's. We need Keeffe to come back strong, Marsh to come on, and Reid to stay injury free, White to play like he did in 2016, Moore to improve. Moore is the big concern, holding up the forward line at such a young age.

KPF is our biggest target, throw the kitchen sink at Lynch or Wright next year and we are on our way. Who knows, Smith, Thomas and a lesser extent Keeffe could improve and be a juicy part of that trade to make that happen.

 

[FuManchu]

That seems to be the general consensus on here but imo he does have a football brain, not sure which is of better value.

Once Grundy improved (after been given a number of opportunities), seems the idea of two rucks went out of consideration.

Still think he will be a good pickup for a team, that doesn't require a mongrel ruckman.

Every team requires a ruck with mongrel. We got one. But Witts will just be a lumbering butterfly who can't impose his huge physical presence.

 

[orion21]

Quite Obvious we don't have enough KPP and Too Many Inside Mids

Not obvious to enough people Dave.......

 

[Quicky]

If we want Breust (doesn't excite me a lot) then speak to him and get him to hold on for one more year and the financial compo will be worth it. Get him for 'free' via FA and pay the cost via higher wage rather than high pick.

Bit of brinkmanship. I like it.

 

[Quicky]

Can someone please cut and paste the Buckanara article?

 

[shizzle]

Can,aomeone please cut and paste the Buckanara article?

From the Herald Sun article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...n/news-story/3631ba9b2313598986b1a314c615a3f9


COLLINGWOOD was a big disappointment this year.

I wrote in last year’s column it was finals or bust for the Pies because the club believed the list was a genuine flag contender and there would be no excuses for missing finals in 2016.

As it has turned out the Pies’ list was unable to cope with injuries and the imbalance of playing types created by those injuries. Injuries illustrate the depth quality you have to cover them.

The Pies have recruited far too many similar types — big-bodied inside midfielders — so the list management and recruiting has for some reason been either done on a playing style instruction from coaches to recruit those types, or it has been just taking the best ranked player at their draft picks, which can create an imbalance in recruiting if the best ranked player at every pick you have is a midfielder type.

What has happened, in my opinion, is Collingwood’s list is poorly balanced in player types and now the types of players they are desperate for are the hardest to find — key-position players — which will hurt them unless they can boost their stocks via free agency or during the trade period.

Questions list managers and recruiters should be asking themselves are:

WHAT are our positional needs?

HOW many players have we got capable of playing in various positions?

WHERE are we short and need to invest in to give our list a better balance?


That’s where the Pies have fallen down and because of that, they haven’t been able to cover certain injuries. Instead, they’ve tried to turn these inside midfielders into high half-forwards or rebound defenders and it hasn’t suited the players’ style of football.

If the Pies had a better balance to their list management and recruiting in looking for different types, then there wouldn’t be this bulk of inside mids who do their best work at stoppages rather than outside players with speed who can use the ball extremely well.

When you go through a list management process you need 12-14 A and B-grade players to compete as well as a good depth of C-grade players. At the Pies, while they have some potentially good young players, their depth isn’t what they think it is.

Scott Pendlebury and Steele Sidebottom are A-graders, Ben Reid, Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Jamie Elliott, Brodie Grundy and Jordan De Goey are B-graders, as is Travis Varcoe at a stretch. Darcy Moore is developing and is coming on at speed and will be an A-grader soon.

James Aish is still developing but I think he can become a B-grader and there’s big raps on Tom Langdon but I think he’s a C-grader because he’s not a great kick, it’s too slow and gets intercepted.

Treloar and Adams are very good players but they’re similar and I’m not sure that was taken into consideration when the club was targeting them in trades. Were they an actual desperate need given where the side is at.
I’d throw Aish into that equation as well, although he really started to turn his form around at the back end of the year to show he can be a very capable league footballer. And then there’s Levi Greenwood as well.

De Goey also plays his best footy as an inside midfielder and Ben Crocker can play inside but they’ve used him more as a tall utility.

​

If I was at Collingwood I would only accept a second-round draft pick for Cloke if they are willing to pay most or all of his salary.

​

The forward line is an area of concern. Elliott was sorely missed obviously but if they’re going into next season with Jesse White as the only tall flanking Moore — who is going to be a star — that’s not going to fill defenders with fear.

You can’t rely on White for a consistent effort week in, week out. He makes far too many mistakes and floats in and out of games.

Mason Cox can help Grundy in the ruck and go forward but he’s still got a lot to learn and you can’t be banking on him to be the game-breaker tall.

On a more positive note, Grundy’s development and improvement has continued and he’s become one of the best ruckmen in the league. Varcoe is a good rebound defender but has been forced forward and I like Brayden Maynard — I think he can turn into a really good rebound defender.

Alex Fasolo is a very dangerous player and he showed why this year with his marking and ground-level skills before being cut down by injury.

Reid is key to Collingwood and he played most of this year but whether he can back it up next year will be a critical question. The Pies need him because the defence also has gaps in it in terms of talls.

Travis Cloke has requested a trade and it looks like the Bulldogs is his likely destination. If they came to me and I was at Collingwood I would only accept their second-round draft pick if they were willing to pay most or all of his salary. If not then the trade would need to be more than that.

If they’re not going to get that sort of a deal then the Pies would be better off keeping him and possibly trying to turn him into a defender if they believe he no longer has much to offer as a forward.

Jarrod Witts is behind Grundy in the ruck and is looking elsewhere by all reports so the Pies could use him to try and bring in a key-position player. Ruckmen are hard to find so that will elevate his price.

Would they be interested in Brent Harvey or Nick Dal Santo? I think they would because both would offer something, particularly Dal Santo across halfback with his good kicking skills.

Daniel Wells would be a good fit because his ball use is elite and he’s got pace but the query is on his body.

Will Hoskin-Elliott has been linked to Collingwood but he’s not an elite ball user. He’s an average to good kick and a bit of a playmaker, he can make things happen and is tough, hard and takes a good mark for his size. He’s a utility but he’s another player similar to what they have and the Pies are probably better off trying to get into deals for a key defender.

Bulldog Lin Jong toured the club’s facilities and he’s a tallish utility who can play midfield and forward and has a good leap, so he can be handy around the ground as a third-man up. But again, he’s not a key-position player.

When you look at Hawthorn, they went out and recruited Josh Gibson, James Frawley, Brian Lake, Ben McEvoy, Jack Gunston and David Hale — all players who became very important players in premiership years.

Collingwood keeps going after midfielders.

If I was at the Pies I’d be taking a gamble on Eagle Mitch Brown, Nathan’s brother, to add that key-position depth despite his injury concerns because he’s a restricted free agent so he wouldn’t cost them anything.

WHAT THEY NEED

The Pies are desperate for key-position players forward and back and the loss of Cloke only exacerbates that. It’s a critical need.

As I’ve mentioned already, Moore is a star but outside him there isn’t much in the way of key-position depth on the list so they’re in a bit of a conundrum in how they improve their list and get it into a position to be regular finals contenders and become a premiership chance.

Players with elite ball use is also a critical need at Collingwood as well as players with outside speed, so that’s running defenders with speed and endurance with good kicking skills and wingers who bring the same attributes. I just don’t think there are enough good kicks on the list.

Collingwood could also use a developing young ruckman if Witts is traded.

WHO’S UNDER THE PUMP?

Players I believe are under the pump are Matthew Goodyear, Tim Broomhead, Brayden Sier, Lachie Keeffe, Josh Thomas and Corey Gault.

Broomhead shows potential but he’s never on the park, whether it’s injury or illness he has missed a lot of footy and he needs to put consecutive games together to show he can be a player otherwise his time might be up. He needs to work on his kicking as well.

Sier was drafted last year in a surprise from the Pies and had an injury interrupted year, but in a season in which the Pies used nearly every player on their list, he didn’t get a look in and wasn’t really close at all.

Then there’s Keeffe and Thomas who will return next season from two-year drug bans. There is a lot of pressure on those two to repay the faith the club has shown in them. They must make an impact next year. Both have senior experience so should be putting together a huge pre-season to show they’re as committed to Collingwood as Collingwood has been committed to them.

WHO SHOULD GO

Dane Swan, Alan Toovey and Brent Macaffer have already retired but I don’t think there’s a place for Gault, he just hasn’t shown enough. He has been given a couple of opportunities at senior level but hasn’t taken them. Goodyear is another one, he’s been on the list for a few years and Broomhead I would move on because you need to make room on your list and the Pies need to refresh. He’s never out there and his kicking is terrible.

CRYSTAL BALL

I wrote last year it was finals or bust and according to the messages coming out of the club that’s the expectation again next year — but then there was also talk of development and being in a development phase during the year. So what is it?

Did the club get it wrong at the start of the season? Or was it just bad luck with injuries but also poor list management and recruiting?

The list to me as it currently sits can compete for finals. I think they’re a side in the fifth-10th bracket and if they can add a bit of quality they should be a top eight side knocking on the door of top four if everything goes right with injuries and form.

 

[Anzacday]

What the??
Surely he's playing mind games...
Meanwhile, Connors confirmed Collingwood key forward Travis Cloke will seek to depart the club with the Magpies keen to free up their salary cap. It is expected Cloke will sign a two-year deal with the Western Bulldogs.
Connors said Cloke has a healthy relationship with Pies coach Nathan Buckley but the pair saw his game differently, and that a deal would likely take an exchange of a later draft pick.
"Collingwood's after a lot of players in this year's trade period and I think they need some salary cap room. I think you'll find both parties come together in a few weeks and work it out," Connors said.
"I think Collingwood wants his money out. It's very mutual, there's a lot of respect. I think Travis has spoken really well – that he's loved the club and really likes 'Bucks' but they're probably just not on the same wavelength from a football perspective.
"I don't think you're going to see pick 35 jump out of any club's pocket into Collingwood's [for Cloke], it's more a free agency type model."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-20/lion-hanley-a-long-way-from-being-traded-says-manager

 

[Apex36]

What the??
Surely he's playing mind games...
Meanwhile, Connors confirmed Collingwood key forward Travis Cloke will seek to depart the club with the Magpies keen to free up their salary cap. It is expected Cloke will sign a two-year deal with the Western Bulldogs.
Connors said Cloke has a healthy relationship with Pies coach Nathan Buckley but the pair saw his game differently, and that a deal would likely take an exchange of a later draft pick.
"Collingwood's after a lot of players in this year's trade period and I think they need some salary cap room. I think you'll find both parties come together in a few weeks and work it out," Connors said.
"I think Collingwood wants his money out. It's very mutual, there's a lot of respect. I think Travis has spoken really well – that he's loved the club and really likes 'Bucks' but they're probably just not on the same wavelength from a football perspective.
"I don't think you're going to see pick 35 jump out of any club's pocket into Collingwood's [for Cloke], it's more a free agency type model."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-20/lion-hanley-a-long-way-from-being-traded-says-manager

This is the same guy who said last year that Nathan Freeman was concerned he wasn't going to get senior time because we had too many mids and Aish wasn't coming to us because of it.

He's one of, if not the biggest shit talker in sports management. I never believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

 

[Maggie5]

Every team requires a ruck with mongrel. We got one. But Witts will just be a lumbering butterfly who can't impose his huge physical presence.

Maybe you haven' watched him as closely as I have.
I would rather a football brain, knowing where to run, good at hitouts, never lets his opponent get too far away and drops back to support his forwards and backs.

 

[DaVe86]

What the??
Surely he's playing mind games...
Meanwhile, Connors confirmed Collingwood key forward Travis Cloke will seek to depart the club with the Magpies keen to free up their salary cap. It is expected Cloke will sign a two-year deal with the Western Bulldogs.
Connors said Cloke has a healthy relationship with Pies coach Nathan Buckley but the pair saw his game differently, and that a deal would likely take an exchange of a later draft pick.
"Collingwood's after a lot of players in this year's trade period and I think they need some salary cap room. I think you'll find both parties come together in a few weeks and work it out," Connors said.
"I think Collingwood wants his money out. It's very mutual, there's a lot of respect. I think Travis has spoken really well – that he's loved the club and really likes 'Bucks' but they're probably just not on the same wavelength from a football perspective.
"I don't think you're going to see pick 35 jump out of any club's pocket into Collingwood's [for Cloke], it's more a free agency type model."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-20/lion-hanley-a-long-way-from-being-traded-says-manager

I just don't get it. Sure we can look to free up some salary cap room, but it also doesn't mean we need to let him walk without a fair trade.

Obviously his value is sceptical, but if we work in a few clubs then we could make something happen. It seems both Witts and Jong have attracted the Gold Coast, so if they are willing to offer some picks out then it should help the situation.

At the end of the day, the Dogs are recruiting him to be a top 22 forward in a side that is in the prelims. I think he is more than just insurance. If they value what he can add, then they would at least have to cough up a top 40 pick I would've thought.

 

[Maggie5]

From the Herald Sun article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...n/news-story/3631ba9b2313598986b1a314c615a3f9


COLLINGWOOD was a big disappointment this year.

I wrote in last year’s column it was finals or bust for the Pies because the club believed the list was a genuine flag contender and there would be no excuses for missing finals in 2016.

As it has turned out the Pies’ list was unable to cope with injuries and the imbalance of playing types created by those injuries. Injuries illustrate the depth quality you have to cover them.

The Pies have recruited far too many similar types — big-bodied inside midfielders — so the list management and recruiting has for some reason been either done on a playing style instruction from coaches to recruit those types, or it has been just taking the best ranked player at their draft picks, which can create an imbalance in recruiting if the best ranked player at every pick you have is a midfielder type.

What has happened, in my opinion, is Collingwood’s list is poorly balanced in player types and now the types of players they are desperate for are the hardest to find — key-position players — which will hurt them unless they can boost their stocks via free agency or during the trade period.

Questions list managers and recruiters should be asking themselves are:

WHAT are our positional needs?

HOW many players have we got capable of playing in various positions?

WHERE are we short and need to invest in to give our list a better balance?


That’s where the Pies have fallen down and because of that, they haven’t been able to cover certain injuries. Instead, they’ve tried to turn these inside midfielders into high half-forwards or rebound defenders and it hasn’t suited the players’ style of football.

If the Pies had a better balance to their list management and recruiting in looking for different types, then there wouldn’t be this bulk of inside mids who do their best work at stoppages rather than outside players with speed who can use the ball extremely well.

When you go through a list management process you need 12-14 A and B-grade players to compete as well as a good depth of C-grade players. At the Pies, while they have some potentially good young players, their depth isn’t what they think it is.

Scott Pendlebury and Steele Sidebottom are A-graders, Ben Reid, Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Jamie Elliott, Brodie Grundy and Jordan De Goey are B-graders, as is Travis Varcoe at a stretch. Darcy Moore is developing and is coming on at speed and will be an A-grader soon.

James Aish is still developing but I think he can become a B-grader and there’s big raps on Tom Langdon but I think he’s a C-grader because he’s not a great kick, it’s too slow and gets intercepted.

Treloar and Adams are very good players but they’re similar and I’m not sure that was taken into consideration when the club was targeting them in trades. Were they an actual desperate need given where the side is at.
I’d throw Aish into that equation as well, although he really started to turn his form around at the back end of the year to show he can be a very capable league footballer. And then there’s Levi Greenwood as well.

De Goey also plays his best footy as an inside midfielder and Ben Crocker can play inside but they’ve used him more as a tall utility.

​

If I was at Collingwood I would only accept a second-round draft pick for Cloke if they are willing to pay most or all of his salary.

​

The forward line is an area of concern. Elliott was sorely missed obviously but if they’re going into next season with Jesse White as the only tall flanking Moore — who is going to be a star — that’s not going to fill defenders with fear.

You can’t rely on White for a consistent effort week in, week out. He makes far too many mistakes and floats in and out of games.

Mason Cox can help Grundy in the ruck and go forward but he’s still got a lot to learn and you can’t be banking on him to be the game-breaker tall.

On a more positive note, Grundy’s development and improvement has continued and he’s become one of the best ruckmen in the league. Varcoe is a good rebound defender but has been forced forward and I like Brayden Maynard — I think he can turn into a really good rebound defender.

Alex Fasolo is a very dangerous player and he showed why this year with his marking and ground-level skills before being cut down by injury.

Reid is key to Collingwood and he played most of this year but whether he can back it up next year will be a critical question. The Pies need him because the defence also has gaps in it in terms of talls.

Travis Cloke has requested a trade and it looks like the Bulldogs is his likely destination. If they came to me and I was at Collingwood I would only accept their second-round draft pick if they were willing to pay most or all of his salary. If not then the trade would need to be more than that.

If they’re not going to get that sort of a deal then the Pies would be better off keeping him and possibly trying to turn him into a defender if they believe he no longer has much to offer as a forward.

Jarrod Witts is behind Grundy in the ruck and is looking elsewhere by all reports so the Pies could use him to try and bring in a key-position player. Ruckmen are hard to find so that will elevate his price.

Would they be interested in Brent Harvey or Nick Dal Santo? I think they would because both would offer something, particularly Dal Santo across halfback with his good kicking skills.

Daniel Wells would be a good fit because his ball use is elite and he’s got pace but the query is on his body.

Will Hoskin-Elliott has been linked to Collingwood but he’s not an elite ball user. He’s an average to good kick and a bit of a playmaker, he can make things happen and is tough, hard and takes a good mark for his size. He’s a utility but he’s another player similar to what they have and the Pies are probably better off trying to get into deals for a key defender.

Bulldog Lin Jong toured the club’s facilities and he’s a tallish utility who can play midfield and forward and has a good leap, so he can be handy around the ground as a third-man up. But again, he’s not a key-position player.

When you look at Hawthorn, they went out and recruited Josh Gibson, James Frawley, Brian Lake, Ben McEvoy, Jack Gunston and David Hale — all players who became very important players in premiership years.

Collingwood keeps going after midfielders.

If I was at the Pies I’d be taking a gamble on Eagle Mitch Brown, Nathan’s brother, to add that key-position depth despite his injury concerns because he’s a restricted free agent so he wouldn’t cost them anything.

WHAT THEY NEED

The Pies are desperate for key-position players forward and back and the loss of Cloke only exacerbates that. It’s a critical need.

As I’ve mentioned already, Moore is a star but outside him there isn’t much in the way of key-position depth on the list so they’re in a bit of a conundrum in how they improve their list and get it into a position to be regular finals contenders and become a premiership chance.

Players with elite ball use is also a critical need at Collingwood as well as players with outside speed, so that’s running defenders with speed and endurance with good kicking skills and wingers who bring the same attributes. I just don’t think there are enough good kicks on the list.

Collingwood could also use a developing young ruckman if Witts is traded.

WHO’S UNDER THE PUMP?

Players I believe are under the pump are Matthew Goodyear, Tim Broomhead, Brayden Sier, Lachie Keeffe, Josh Thomas and Corey Gault.

Broomhead shows potential but he’s never on the park, whether it’s injury or illness he has missed a lot of footy and he needs to put consecutive games together to show he can be a player otherwise his time might be up. He needs to work on his kicking as well.

Sier was drafted last year in a surprise from the Pies and had an injury interrupted year, but in a season in which the Pies used nearly every player on their list, he didn’t get a look in and wasn’t really close at all.

Then there’s Keeffe and Thomas who will return next season from two-year drug bans. There is a lot of pressure on those two to repay the faith the club has shown in them. They must make an impact next year. Both have senior experience so should be putting together a huge pre-season to show they’re as committed to Collingwood as Collingwood has been committed to them.

WHO SHOULD GO

Dane Swan, Alan Toovey and Brent Macaffer have already retired but I don’t think there’s a place for Gault, he just hasn’t shown enough. He has been given a couple of opportunities at senior level but hasn’t taken them. Goodyear is another one, he’s been on the list for a few years and Broomhead I would move on because you need to make room on your list and the Pies need to refresh. He’s never out there and his kicking is terrible.

CRYSTAL BALL

I wrote last year it was finals or bust and according to the messages coming out of the club that’s the expectation again next year — but then there was also talk of development and being in a development phase during the year. So what is it?

Did the club get it wrong at the start of the season? Or was it just bad luck with injuries but also poor list management and recruiting?

The list to me as it currently sits can compete for finals. I think they’re a side in the fifth-10th bracket and if they can add a bit of quality they should be a top eight side knocking on the door of top four if everything goes right with injuries and form.

One of the best articles and analysis I have read.

 

[Tassiepies83]

From the Herald Sun article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...n/news-story/3631ba9b2313598986b1a314c615a3f9


COLLINGWOOD was a big disappointment this year.

I wrote in last year’s column it was finals or bust for the Pies because the club believed the list was a genuine flag contender and there would be no excuses for missing finals in 2016.

As it has turned out the Pies’ list was unable to cope with injuries and the imbalance of playing types created by those injuries. Injuries illustrate the depth quality you have to cover them.

The Pies have recruited far too many similar types — big-bodied inside midfielders — so the list management and recruiting has for some reason been either done on a playing style instruction from coaches to recruit those types, or it has been just taking the best ranked player at their draft picks, which can create an imbalance in recruiting if the best ranked player at every pick you have is a midfielder type.

What has happened, in my opinion, is Collingwood’s list is poorly balanced in player types and now the types of players they are desperate for are the hardest to find — key-position players — which will hurt them unless they can boost their stocks via free agency or during the trade period.

Questions list managers and recruiters should be asking themselves are:

WHAT are our positional needs?

HOW many players have we got capable of playing in various positions?

WHERE are we short and need to invest in to give our list a better balance?


That’s where the Pies have fallen down and because of that, they haven’t been able to cover certain injuries. Instead, they’ve tried to turn these inside midfielders into high half-forwards or rebound defenders and it hasn’t suited the players’ style of football.

If the Pies had a better balance to their list management and recruiting in looking for different types, then there wouldn’t be this bulk of inside mids who do their best work at stoppages rather than outside players with speed who can use the ball extremely well.

When you go through a list management process you need 12-14 A and B-grade players to compete as well as a good depth of C-grade players. At the Pies, while they have some potentially good young players, their depth isn’t what they think it is.

Scott Pendlebury and Steele Sidebottom are A-graders, Ben Reid, Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Jamie Elliott, Brodie Grundy and Jordan De Goey are B-graders, as is Travis Varcoe at a stretch. Darcy Moore is developing and is coming on at speed and will be an A-grader soon.

James Aish is still developing but I think he can become a B-grader and there’s big raps on Tom Langdon but I think he’s a C-grader because he’s not a great kick, it’s too slow and gets intercepted.

Treloar and Adams are very good players but they’re similar and I’m not sure that was taken into consideration when the club was targeting them in trades. Were they an actual desperate need given where the side is at.
I’d throw Aish into that equation as well, although he really started to turn his form around at the back end of the year to show he can be a very capable league footballer. And then there’s Levi Greenwood as well.

De Goey also plays his best footy as an inside midfielder and Ben Crocker can play inside but they’ve used him more as a tall utility.

​

If I was at Collingwood I would only accept a second-round draft pick for Cloke if they are willing to pay most or all of his salary.

​

The forward line is an area of concern. Elliott was sorely missed obviously but if they’re going into next season with Jesse White as the only tall flanking Moore — who is going to be a star — that’s not going to fill defenders with fear.

You can’t rely on White for a consistent effort week in, week out. He makes far too many mistakes and floats in and out of games.

Mason Cox can help Grundy in the ruck and go forward but he’s still got a lot to learn and you can’t be banking on him to be the game-breaker tall.

On a more positive note, Grundy’s development and improvement has continued and he’s become one of the best ruckmen in the league. Varcoe is a good rebound defender but has been forced forward and I like Brayden Maynard — I think he can turn into a really good rebound defender.

Alex Fasolo is a very dangerous player and he showed why this year with his marking and ground-level skills before being cut down by injury.

Reid is key to Collingwood and he played most of this year but whether he can back it up next year will be a critical question. The Pies need him because the defence also has gaps in it in terms of talls.

Travis Cloke has requested a trade and it looks like the Bulldogs is his likely destination. If they came to me and I was at Collingwood I would only accept their second-round draft pick if they were willing to pay most or all of his salary. If not then the trade would need to be more than that.

If they’re not going to get that sort of a deal then the Pies would be better off keeping him and possibly trying to turn him into a defender if they believe he no longer has much to offer as a forward.

Jarrod Witts is behind Grundy in the ruck and is looking elsewhere by all reports so the Pies could use him to try and bring in a key-position player. Ruckmen are hard to find so that will elevate his price.

Would they be interested in Brent Harvey or Nick Dal Santo? I think they would because both would offer something, particularly Dal Santo across halfback with his good kicking skills.

Daniel Wells would be a good fit because his ball use is elite and he’s got pace but the query is on his body.

Will Hoskin-Elliott has been linked to Collingwood but he’s not an elite ball user. He’s an average to good kick and a bit of a playmaker, he can make things happen and is tough, hard and takes a good mark for his size. He’s a utility but he’s another player similar to what they have and the Pies are probably better off trying to get into deals for a key defender.

Bulldog Lin Jong toured the club’s facilities and he’s a tallish utility who can play midfield and forward and has a good leap, so he can be handy around the ground as a third-man up. But again, he’s not a key-position player.

When you look at Hawthorn, they went out and recruited Josh Gibson, James Frawley, Brian Lake, Ben McEvoy, Jack Gunston and David Hale — all players who became very important players in premiership years.

Collingwood keeps going after midfielders.

If I was at the Pies I’d be taking a gamble on Eagle Mitch Brown, Nathan’s brother, to add that key-position depth despite his injury concerns because he’s a restricted free agent so he wouldn’t cost them anything.

WHAT THEY NEED

The Pies are desperate for key-position players forward and back and the loss of Cloke only exacerbates that. It’s a critical need.

As I’ve mentioned already, Moore is a star but outside him there isn’t much in the way of key-position depth on the list so they’re in a bit of a conundrum in how they improve their list and get it into a position to be regular finals contenders and become a premiership chance.

Players with elite ball use is also a critical need at Collingwood as well as players with outside speed, so that’s running defenders with speed and endurance with good kicking skills and wingers who bring the same attributes. I just don’t think there are enough good kicks on the list.

Collingwood could also use a developing young ruckman if Witts is traded.

WHO’S UNDER THE PUMP?

Players I believe are under the pump are Matthew Goodyear, Tim Broomhead, Brayden Sier, Lachie Keeffe, Josh Thomas and Corey Gault.

Broomhead shows potential but he’s never on the park, whether it’s injury or illness he has missed a lot of footy and he needs to put consecutive games together to show he can be a player otherwise his time might be up. He needs to work on his kicking as well.

Sier was drafted last year in a surprise from the Pies and had an injury interrupted year, but in a season in which the Pies used nearly every player on their list, he didn’t get a look in and wasn’t really close at all.

Then there’s Keeffe and Thomas who will return next season from two-year drug bans. There is a lot of pressure on those two to repay the faith the club has shown in them. They must make an impact next year. Both have senior experience so should be putting together a huge pre-season to show they’re as committed to Collingwood as Collingwood has been committed to them.

WHO SHOULD GO

Dane Swan, Alan Toovey and Brent Macaffer have already retired but I don’t think there’s a place for Gault, he just hasn’t shown enough. He has been given a couple of opportunities at senior level but hasn’t taken them. Goodyear is another one, he’s been on the list for a few years and Broomhead I would move on because you need to make room on your list and the Pies need to refresh. He’s never out there and his kicking is terrible.

CRYSTAL BALL

I wrote last year it was finals or bust and according to the messages coming out of the club that’s the expectation again next year — but then there was also talk of development and being in a development phase during the year. So what is it?

Did the club get it wrong at the start of the season? Or was it just bad luck with injuries but also poor list management and recruiting?

The list to me as it currently sits can compete for finals. I think they’re a side in the fifth-10th bracket and if they can add a bit of quality they should be a top eight side knocking on the door of top four if everything goes right with injuries and form.

Wow stark contrast between whats written by an experienced list manager (Buckenara) and a poor excuse of media commentator (Lloyd)

 

[Vicky Park]

Moore is the big concern, holding up the forward line at such a young age.

We need Cox to come on too. If he can.

 

[TW Sherrin]

From the Herald Sun article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...n/news-story/3631ba9b2313598986b1a314c615a3f9


COLLINGWOOD was a big disappointment this year.

I wrote in last year’s column it was finals or bust for the Pies because the club believed the list was a genuine flag contender and there would be no excuses for missing finals in 2016.

As it has turned out the Pies’ list was unable to cope with injuries and the imbalance of playing types created by those injuries. Injuries illustrate the depth quality you have to cover them.

The Pies have recruited far too many similar types — big-bodied inside midfielders — so the list management and recruiting has for some reason been either done on a playing style instruction from coaches to recruit those types, or it has been just taking the best ranked player at their draft picks, which can create an imbalance in recruiting if the best ranked player at every pick you have is a midfielder type.

What has happened, in my opinion, is Collingwood’s list is poorly balanced in player types and now the types of players they are desperate for are the hardest to find — key-position players — which will hurt them unless they can boost their stocks via free agency or during the trade period.

Questions list managers and recruiters should be asking themselves are:

WHAT are our positional needs?

HOW many players have we got capable of playing in various positions?

WHERE are we short and need to invest in to give our list a better balance?


That’s where the Pies have fallen down and because of that, they haven’t been able to cover certain injuries. Instead, they’ve tried to turn these inside midfielders into high half-forwards or rebound defenders and it hasn’t suited the players’ style of football.

If the Pies had a better balance to their list management and recruiting in looking for different types, then there wouldn’t be this bulk of inside mids who do their best work at stoppages rather than outside players with speed who can use the ball extremely well.

When you go through a list management process you need 12-14 A and B-grade players to compete as well as a good depth of C-grade players. At the Pies, while they have some potentially good young players, their depth isn’t what they think it is.

Scott Pendlebury and Steele Sidebottom are A-graders, Ben Reid, Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Jamie Elliott, Brodie Grundy and Jordan De Goey are B-graders, as is Travis Varcoe at a stretch. Darcy Moore is developing and is coming on at speed and will be an A-grader soon.

James Aish is still developing but I think he can become a B-grader and there’s big raps on Tom Langdon but I think he’s a C-grader because he’s not a great kick, it’s too slow and gets intercepted.

Treloar and Adams are very good players but they’re similar and I’m not sure that was taken into consideration when the club was targeting them in trades. Were they an actual desperate need given where the side is at.
I’d throw Aish into that equation as well, although he really started to turn his form around at the back end of the year to show he can be a very capable league footballer. And then there’s Levi Greenwood as well.

De Goey also plays his best footy as an inside midfielder and Ben Crocker can play inside but they’ve used him more as a tall utility.

​

If I was at Collingwood I would only accept a second-round draft pick for Cloke if they are willing to pay most or all of his salary.

​

The forward line is an area of concern. Elliott was sorely missed obviously but if they’re going into next season with Jesse White as the only tall flanking Moore — who is going to be a star — that’s not going to fill defenders with fear.

You can’t rely on White for a consistent effort week in, week out. He makes far too many mistakes and floats in and out of games.

Mason Cox can help Grundy in the ruck and go forward but he’s still got a lot to learn and you can’t be banking on him to be the game-breaker tall.

On a more positive note, Grundy’s development and improvement has continued and he’s become one of the best ruckmen in the league. Varcoe is a good rebound defender but has been forced forward and I like Brayden Maynard — I think he can turn into a really good rebound defender.

Alex Fasolo is a very dangerous player and he showed why this year with his marking and ground-level skills before being cut down by injury.

Reid is key to Collingwood and he played most of this year but whether he can back it up next year will be a critical question. The Pies need him because the defence also has gaps in it in terms of talls.

Travis Cloke has requested a trade and it looks like the Bulldogs is his likely destination. If they came to me and I was at Collingwood I would only accept their second-round draft pick if they were willing to pay most or all of his salary. If not then the trade would need to be more than that.

If they’re not going to get that sort of a deal then the Pies would be better off keeping him and possibly trying to turn him into a defender if they believe he no longer has much to offer as a forward.

Jarrod Witts is behind Grundy in the ruck and is looking elsewhere by all reports so the Pies could use him to try and bring in a key-position player. Ruckmen are hard to find so that will elevate his price.

Would they be interested in Brent Harvey or Nick Dal Santo? I think they would because both would offer something, particularly Dal Santo across halfback with his good kicking skills.

Daniel Wells would be a good fit because his ball use is elite and he’s got pace but the query is on his body.

Will Hoskin-Elliott has been linked to Collingwood but he’s not an elite ball user. He’s an average to good kick and a bit of a playmaker, he can make things happen and is tough, hard and takes a good mark for his size. He’s a utility but he’s another player similar to what they have and the Pies are probably better off trying to get into deals for a key defender.

Bulldog Lin Jong toured the club’s facilities and he’s a tallish utility who can play midfield and forward and has a good leap, so he can be handy around the ground as a third-man up. But again, he’s not a key-position player.

When you look at Hawthorn, they went out and recruited Josh Gibson, James Frawley, Brian Lake, Ben McEvoy, Jack Gunston and David Hale — all players who became very important players in premiership years.

Collingwood keeps going after midfielders.

If I was at the Pies I’d be taking a gamble on Eagle Mitch Brown, Nathan’s brother, to add that key-position depth despite his injury concerns because he’s a restricted free agent so he wouldn’t cost them anything.

WHAT THEY NEED

The Pies are desperate for key-position players forward and back and the loss of Cloke only exacerbates that. It’s a critical need.

As I’ve mentioned already, Moore is a star but outside him there isn’t much in the way of key-position depth on the list so they’re in a bit of a conundrum in how they improve their list and get it into a position to be regular finals contenders and become a premiership chance.

Players with elite ball use is also a critical need at Collingwood as well as players with outside speed, so that’s running defenders with speed and endurance with good kicking skills and wingers who bring the same attributes. I just don’t think there are enough good kicks on the list.

Collingwood could also use a developing young ruckman if Witts is traded.

WHO’S UNDER THE PUMP?

Players I believe are under the pump are Matthew Goodyear, Tim Broomhead, Brayden Sier, Lachie Keeffe, Josh Thomas and Corey Gault.

Broomhead shows potential but he’s never on the park, whether it’s injury or illness he has missed a lot of footy and he needs to put consecutive games together to show he can be a player otherwise his time might be up. He needs to work on his kicking as well.

Sier was drafted last year in a surprise from the Pies and had an injury interrupted year, but in a season in which the Pies used nearly every player on their list, he didn’t get a look in and wasn’t really close at all.

Then there’s Keeffe and Thomas who will return next season from two-year drug bans. There is a lot of pressure on those two to repay the faith the club has shown in them. They must make an impact next year. Both have senior experience so should be putting together a huge pre-season to show they’re as committed to Collingwood as Collingwood has been committed to them.

WHO SHOULD GO

Dane Swan, Alan Toovey and Brent Macaffer have already retired but I don’t think there’s a place for Gault, he just hasn’t shown enough. He has been given a couple of opportunities at senior level but hasn’t taken them. Goodyear is another one, he’s been on the list for a few years and Broomhead I would move on because you need to make room on your list and the Pies need to refresh. He’s never out there and his kicking is terrible.

CRYSTAL BALL

I wrote last year it was finals or bust and according to the messages coming out of the club that’s the expectation again next year — but then there was also talk of development and being in a development phase during the year. So what is it?

Did the club get it wrong at the start of the season? Or was it just bad luck with injuries but also poor list management and recruiting?

The list to me as it currently sits can compete for finals. I think they’re a side in the fifth-10th bracket and if they can add a bit of quality they should be a top eight side knocking on the door of top four if everything goes right with injuries and form.

hawthorn traded all those talls in. none were drafted. they were also in the "window" so id'; expect us to be doing the same in the next couple of years.

 

[CFC2010]

I just don't get it. Sure we can look to free up some salary cap room, but it also doesn't mean we need to let him walk without a fair trade.

Obviously his value is sceptical, but if we work in a few clubs then we could make something happen. It seems both Witts and Jong have attracted the Gold Coast, so if they are willing to offer some picks out then it should help the situation.

At the end of the day, the Dogs are recruiting him to be a top 22 forward in a side that is in the prelims. I think he is more than just insurance. If they value what he can add, then they would at least have to cough up a top 40 pick I would've thought.

What's not to get?

The Cloke's want more money we are not willing to give it to them.

Adios.......case closed!

 

[Pedro]

What the??
Surely he's playing mind games...

"I don't think you're going to see pick 35 jump out of any club's pocket into Collingwood's [for Cloke], it's more a free agency type model."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-09-20/lion-hanley-a-long-way-from-being-traded-says-manager

No doubt. Is he Travis' new manager? All he wants is a smooth transition to the Bulldogs. Doesn't take into account Collingwoods interests. Hine & Gubby or whoever is running the show will know exactly what they want out of this trade and no amount of talking it down in the media will change that.

That may be a late pick and salary cap relief. But everyone seems to be angling towards us just giving him away which I hope doesn't happen. In the same breath they talk about 2nd round compo picks for geriatrics like Wells and battlers like Chris Mayne. "Its more a free agency model" No its not. He's contracted and although he says he's going to relinquish his current contract, I assume Collingwood need to agree on the terms of that happening.

Doesn't seem right to just bend over to all and sundry for the sake of freeing up $400-$450K in the salary cap. We need to demand adequate compensation.