List Mgmt. Contract, Trade and Draft Discussions - 2024 Post Season

[Keys]

Quick links

• Player contract status
• Draft prospect video highlights (thanks to noobermensch)
• AFL retirements and delistings

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Trade period
In: 12, F1, F2, F3, 73, Baker, Owies, Graham*
Out: 3, 63, F4, Barrass, Darling

*Free agent

Done deals

• Tom Barrass traded to Hawthorn
  • In: F1, F2, F3 (HAW)
  • Out: Barrass, F4

• Liam Baker and Matt Owies join West Coast in Pick 3 trade
  • In: Baker, Owies, 12, 73
  • Out: 3, 63, 68

• Jack Darling traded to North Melbourne for Pick 67

• Jack Graham joins West Coast as UFA

• Jake Waterman re-signs with West Coast until at least 2029

• Zane Trew, Jamaine Jones
  31

  Jamaine Jones

  Age

  26

  Ht

  180cm

  Wt

  80kg

  Pos.

  D/F

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  9.0

  2star

  K

  4.8

  2star

  HB

  4.2

  3star

  M

  2.1

  2star

  T

  3.8

  5star

  MG

  159.6

  3star

  D

  10.5

  3star

  K

  6.5

  3star

  HB

  4.0

  3star

  M

  2.5

  3star

  T

  4.0

  5star

  MG

  196.5

  3star

  D

  9.0

  3star

  K

  4.2

  2star

  HB

  4.8

  4star

  M

  2.4

  3star

  T

  4.2

  5star

  MG

  166.0

  3star

  and Jordyn Baker delisted

• Archer Reid (2027), Loch Rawlinson (2025), and Coen Livingstone (2025) sign extensions

 

[JoshWoodenSpoon]

I once worked for a company that had all the techniques skills at the top, but poor leadership. There was a change at sole upper levels, good leaders but no where close to the skills required, but guess what? After 12 months business doubled, then doubled again after 24 months

 

[Ruben Grubarb]

Here’s something to ponder

The Kelly trade was 14,F1,24,37 with 57 and a F3 (Geelong) coming back

Carlton just gave up 11,F1,F2 (and Owies) to get pick 3

That’s not far short of the farm traded away for Kelly

They need pick 3 to be a pretty good player

Carlton are assuming they will be pushing top 4 next season. So to them, their F1 is maybe 14. So it's roughly 2x #14 and chicken feed. When you think you've pretty much got your list, chicken feed doesn't matter. It's a good trade for them. The risk is worth it. It's got to be all about a flag for them. Picking some kid up at #38 who probably won't play 30 games, let alone be an premiership jigsaw piece, is a low percentage play.

 

[BartBart]

But the "we traded in Baker/traded out #3 because we're thinking the long game (Warner)" is a myth. I've seen it said in the media multiple times and it doesn't make sense.

We traded Barrass for an F1. We'll need 2x Firsts for Warner. The Baker deal has nothing to do with it. We traded Barrass to put us in a position to get Warner. Warner isn't going to be thing, "Baker is at West Coast, let's go!". He's going to be thinking, "Harley and Draper are at West Coast, this could get real big".

I'm all for Warner, but we've left ourselves short with the Baker deal. We need to pick someone at the top of the draft this year, take Warner next year, then go to the draft again where if we're bottom 5, go another mid, if we're 5-10, we can choose SF, maybe gun KPD, maybe gun HBF etc.

I feel we're likely leaving ourselves short.

We will have 2 first & a future 1st.

Not recommending we necessarily use them all.

 

[bzparkes]

See ya Tom, you didn't want to play for us anymore. Not giving you anymore pats on the back. Surely Simmo gave you enough.

Hmm..

'ToastieBoy'

'Toastie Boy'

'TB'...


Aha!, ToastieBoy = Tom Browne.

Surprised he didn't break the news of Tom Barrass stuff before anyone else. Lost his touch since moving to Sydney?

 

[CountryLad]

The success, or otherwise, of our trade period will hinge primarily on the fortunes of Hawthorn in 2025

Miss the 8 and finish say 10th, we have picks 9,27,45

If they make a prelim, those picks become 15,33,51 at best.

(We will also be hoping Carlton finish above Hawthorn)

To a lesser extent the impact of Baker will also be a determinant given we gave away a very useful pick for him

Personally think we will see Baker at his best next year. New fresh start at a club he grew up following, he has a point to prove to I think with the backlash about his value in a trade, he comes across as one that loves to prove a point.

 

[Wedgetailed Westerner]

Need to set ourselves up to get Rodriguez next year too.
If we can do that, nab Curtin junior, get Warner and all our NGA's, that will ne some of season!!!

 

[Hook461123]

Its hard to argue that we didn't massively overpay for Baker. Its not just the pick 3 swap but the fact we didn't get another pick back from the Tigers when they had a million of them. Even one of their picks in the 40's would've helped. It made no sense to include Tigers in that pick swap deal when they didn't contribute anything to it.
I hope Clarke took some lessons out of this trade period and does better next year. You don't agree to the value of a player beforehand or for a pick that you don't have yet.

Maybe we have some sort of prearranged pick swap with Tigers and thats the reason we overpaid on Baker.

At least we are trying something I guess. We've spent the last couple of seasons with no direction and it seems we had a plan and although overpaid delivered what we wanted.
We now need full preseasons for Flynn, Hewett and Long to really see some improvement.

 

[BartBart]

Hawks just traded out their entire original 2025 draft hand bar round 4 for a 29 year old fullback with back issues.

And you aren't happy with that?

Really?

Would you trade a 1st, 2nd and 3rd for a 29 year old fullback? I sure as hell wouldn't.

All this "It a crap trade if the Hawks win the flag next year". Lol.

They won't. They simply do not have the midfield nor the finals experience. Sam's nifty little game plan didn't stack up in finals against top opposition. Teams will have noticed and learned how to counter it. They will have a harder draw in 2025 and there is just as much chance of the Hawks dropping or staying the same as there is in improving.

And well, if the Hawks take a step back next year like the Crows did in 2024. Hawks 1st and 2nd rounders could juat make up the majority of the trade capital for Warner.

Are people still going to whinge with that outcome.

Hawthorn forced themselves to use the picks with their argressive recruitment of a contracted player and offering him a 4/5 year contract.

 

[RookiePick]

They definitely could but they're 2nd favourites for 2025 for a reason. Young team, 2024 form, great recruiting etc.

I just can't compute the risk/reward. I would rather have just kept Barrass. If he was so pissed off then throw some extra cash his way, not like we're tight for it.

If McGovern picks up injuries next year, we're in a spot of bother.

Barrass. Dodge back, doesn't want to be there.

Gives Harry Edwards at 24 the chance to confirm if he is our answer at FB for the next 5-6 years.

Makes room for Brazzo to see if he has the goods. A really rough start to his career but he only just turned 21. Some hope he can bloom yet.

With Jilliams starting to show a bit we can always send Oscar back if we had to as well. Jilliams, Snake up front with plenty of options at their feet is OK.

 

[ToastieBoy18]

Baker said he has a preference but happy for Freo to bid. He also said he woulnt leave if Richmond didnt trade him. Dan Houston took the exact same approach. Those two also didnt publically complain about the club, including asking the club to keep promises made by people who were not there anymore and therefore creating a narrative where the club is the bad guy and he isnt

The right way was keeping things quiet and not complaining publically and being open to other finals contending teams in Melbourne. Just like Dan Houston was

His actions were selfish. Dan Houston and Liam Bakers were not. Its kinda that simple in a weird way

Personally, I don't remember TB complaining publicly about only going to the Hawks, could be wrong however. Also, as far as I am aware Hawthorn were the only ones with serious interest. Collingwood and Bulldogs were spoken about early on, but probably knew they wouldn't be able to afford his asking price.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Personally, I don't remember TB complaining publicly about only going to the Hawks, could be wrong however. Also, as far as I am aware Hawthorn were the only ones with serious interest. Collingwood and Bulldogs were spoken about early on, but probably knew they wouldn't be able to afford his asking price.

Sydney had interest and should have been a option, 19 and 22 for Barrass was a much better deal then what we got for example

 

[DanWCE]

It made no sense to include Tigers in that pick swap deal when they didn't contribute anything to it.

I've been thinking about that. I think Tigers pushed for it to get that pick 14 before we took it to someone like Swans and swapped it for two picks and then handed one to the Tigers (19?)

Whatever has happened, the cost to secure Baker is too much. Whether that is Clarke over playing his hand and going for the quick sugar hit bringing in some known quantities to look like a genius, I'm not sure. I get the impression the deal was agreed before Mini was parachuted into the chair, but Baker would have re-signed with Tigers if Mini didn't get there.

Bakers comments about the Tigers list manager were curious. Saying he's a straight up guy, really easy to deal with, walk in and tell him where you're at and he would just accept it and say okay how can we get a deal done. I think whatever has transpired in those early conversations put us over a barrel. "We'll be sad to see you go, Bakes, and you leave us as a Vice Captain when we are on our knees as a footy club. The least we could ask is that you ensure we get fairly compensated in the process, so let's get your Manager on the phone and agree to your worth so that can be taken to the Eagles"

 

[Monocle]

I am okish about what we have done.

For me the parcel we got from The Poos and Wees, for TB was better than I had expected.
While TB was a great intercept mark he actually isn’t a particularly good defender in a one on one situation.
Can’t say I will miss he sideways and backwards kicks off one step, that don’t reach there intended team mate on the full.
Neither will I miss his flour bag punts that’s lobbed onto the heads of our forwards, or his slow ball movement.
I also suspect that he wouldn’t have transitioned well, to the fast ball movement, game style that we are supposedly changing too.

Happy with the out come that we came away with with the TB trade.

The three players that we have added are all reasonable players with out being top tier.
Baker has the right attitude and IF he can help lift the pressure aspect of the team that’s a real bonus.
Graham is the pick up I like the most.
Cost us nothing, he has a skill set that we are short of - ie a defensive mid, his inclusion in the side will assist HR9 and Yeo. He too brings pressure to a team that’s in need of a level of desperation to hold the ball in our forward half.
Oweis is an ok get, not a real need but he is a decent depth player, as his addition to our list will keep some heat on Ryan to hold his spot.
Ryan has been playing with the cruise control button switched on the past few years.

The cost we paid for Baker is the second biggest negative for me over the trade period.
Good sides are built around top 5 - 7 picks.
Over the past decade and a half we haven’t had many.
When we have had them, we haven’t valved them highly enough IMO:

2022 pick 2 - traded for 9 and 12 ( from memory ) got us Ginbey and Hewitt.
This trade back looks poor as it is at the moment. So I am giving it a

2023 pick 1 - kept HR9 enough said

2024 pick 3 - traded it for Baker & 12

Who we pick with 12 and how they turn out will be of the utmost importance to determine if this is another bust / plonker move, or a astute piece of list building.

But for me the most worrying aspect of the past week and it scares the shit out of me going forward is Matt Clarke’s performance.
I just shook my head in disbelief we on day one he walks into the trade period and blurts out that he thinks his number one trade target- Baker is worth a pick in the teens.

I mean FFS just how daft was that ?

Immediately the alarm bells went off inside my head.

This guy has failed Negotiating 101.

I have heard him speak several times since and let me say he has not left a good impression on me.

Then the snippet from someone close to the action, that the movement on the TB trade only moved forward after Clarke left the room.
This is hearsay but I don’t doubt it’s authenticity.

Which leads me to my biggest fear.

This is the guy that been entrusted by our management to be the pivotal player in our badly needed rebuild.

Well after this week I am thinking Holly, fu(ken molly……. we might be in a mountain of shit even bigger and deeper than I first thought.

As I have posted previously it has be an inauspicious start for Clarke IMO, and I really want my fears and concerns to be wrong and unwarranted but I can only predict how a person will perform in the future using their past performances as the yardstick.

So a challenge to all the apologists on here that always defend the Clubs decisions and defend it’s short comings, can any of you allay my fears.

Because I am struggling to see the upside of a future with this bloke managing our list and being our chief trade negotiator going forward.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Still, it’s the foundations of a midfield that won’t be the finished product but you can build around.

Even if you disregard Clark and add Holmes to the equation, the fact is it’s a full starting midfield that cost them 17, 18, 20 and some salary dump space for Bowes.

Bowes is a bit of a spud but he, Bruhn and Holmes almost made a Grand Final with some Dangerfield thrown in the mix. Can’t tell me Dangerfield carried that midfield all year, and even if he did, I would expect Smith to be able to perform at the level Danger did this year.

That’s a very cheap midfield. While we are here scratching our ass wondering whether or not we’re even going to be able to draft a midfielder this year.

Yeah, Holmes is the one. He and Smith are likely to be the formidable pairing if Geelong are to improve their midfield.

 

[Footfalcon]

And if we hold pick 3 next year Swans will demand it.

Trade it and get another couple of 1st this year. Use Hawks F1st for Warner plus our 2026 1st if need be.

Can you clarify what occurs if we don't budge? Given he's an out of contract player is it just "bad faith"

 

[squashface]

Personally, I don't remember TB complaining publicly about only going to the Hawks, could be wrong however. Also, as far as I am aware Hawthorn were the only ones with serious interest. Collingwood and Bulldogs were spoken about early on, but probably knew they wouldn't be able to afford his asking price.

Probably because Hawthorn targeted him and approached him. He didn’t request a trade to Victoria and then clubs put in their offers - Hawthorn came to him with a deal and he agreed to it.

 

[eaglevision]

If being a bumbling fool wasn’t enough Clarke is now also a hypocrite. After a train wreck trade period he has the audacity to say we shouldn’t zero in on a player. Achieved zero goals that any person with half a brain would have set. Doesn’t deserve the time or support to turn the tide, Matthew Clarke should be frog marched out of Mineral Resources Park today.

 

[ronpingwins]

If being a bumbling fool wasn’t enough Clarke is now also a hypocrite. After a train wreck trade period he has the audacity to say we shouldn’t zero in on a player. Achieved zero goals that any person with half a brain would have set for this trade period. Doesn’t deserve the time or support to turn the tide, Matthew Clarke should be matched out of Mineral Resources Park today.

Maybe he's learnt a hard lesson about committing to a player. Or he's got no idea.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Funny, because we certainly zeroed in on Baker.

That trade shaped our entire draft hand.

 

[GWeagles]

Curiously, we are zeroing in on one player for the 2025 draft already . Admittedly he is pretty good. Especially for a pick 39.

 

[eaglesnutcase]

Monocle - well put. I posted the 2023 top 8 comparison to where I saw them landing and it pictorially makes your point.

The 2024 draft has a number of characteristics

To clarify things - I have excluded all F/S and Academy picks from both years. They are not really live picks but just points used to match bids.

1. The 2024 top end is OK but not stand out (each year all club supporters fall into the trap of loving the top 10 and thinking they are great. I see a number on our board have - Toby, FOS, Draper, etc). Most years the top ends have better top 5 than we have this year (and no stand outs like Walsh, Rowell, Rayner, McCluggage, Harley).

2. There is a very even group from 1 to 6 that are hard to separate in 2024. They in my listing would have all gone after Curtain but before Caddy.

3. Then there is another really even group from 7 to 19 that are very good and likely first rounders each year. In fact, for this group, I believe there are 13 players I would rate before Pheonix and Koltyn who were the 10 and 11th natural picks last year.

4. Not shown here but there will be good prospects available in the 3rd and 4th round this year which is why the full complement of 4th round picks is being tipped. In 2023, there were only 7 players drafted in the 4th round. I will go so far as predicting there will be clubs taking 5th and 6th round picks.

Reality
1. Excluding FA and academy, there were 22 taken in the first round last year. I have 32 players in the rankings for 2024 that I would take prior to DiMattia who was the real 19th pick in 2023. And that is how I define a deep draft.

Oh and the ranking for 2024 is a average of Twomey, HUN, my own and some other respected draft watchers.

View attachment 2145180

Now here is the kicker. I would happily trade our Hawks F1 and our own F2 for Tigers picks 20, 23 and 24 adding to our 26 for another sweet spot. That could land us 4 players I rate as late first rounder most years - 4 out of Oliver, Gross, Jacques, O'Farrell, Mraz, Barrat, Moraes and Ough.

If we walked away with Lindsay or Allan at 12, and 4 of these picks in the 20's, it would be a good draft and trade.

(PS Apologies if the spreadsheet is a bit complicated. Not compromised as I removed that, just lots going on)

Thanks Astx and Mon.Your explanations should be required reading for all the melters on here.I had always agreed on the top few but never given much thought to the depth of this draft.
I slept a bit easier last night without “seething” running through my head.
Gee whiz maybe our recruiting staff actually know what they are doing! Thanks guys!

 

[Bender_]

Funny, because we certainly zeroed in on Baker.

That trade shaped our entire draft hand.

We had to rethink our entire draft strategy when Dev said he was staying put.

 

[Dark Sharks]

We had to rethink our entire draft strategy when Dev said he was staying put.

It meant we kept our F1

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

Probably because Hawthorn targeted him and approached him. He didn’t request a trade to Victoria and then clubs put in their offers - Hawthorn came to him with a deal and he agreed to it.

TB's obviously a top tier player but there are actually not that many victorian teams who would see him as a recruiting priority, either in terms of picks or cap space.

He's of value for a side who expects to contend next year, has their midfield sorted and is a bit weak when it comes to tall defenders.

So the ladder pretty mucn narrows the list of suitors to Geelong/Hawthorn/Carlton/Bulldogs/Pies.

Of those teams, Geelong (surely) must have limited cap space and other recruiting priorities, Collingwood was focused on Houston, the Dogs look to have hit the button on a mini rebuild, and Carlton already have Weitering and the shit McGovern, so they're not going to see him as a priority.

In terms of how they finished the year and what they need I would say he would be more valuable to Hawthorn than virtually any club in the contest. Their backline is not the best part of their team and an extra stay at home defender will help free up guys like sicily to do what he does best. For a team that expects to contend next year barrass might save an extra 1-2 goals a game, and given how many games are decided by those sorts of margins, that is potentially the difference between top 8 and a top 4 finish.

Which btw is why I feel sick that we chose their future picks over Carlton. Everyone is expecting Hawthorn to slide on the back of a more difficult draw but if you look at their results over the back half of the year they beat a lot of seriously good sides. And we sent them a player who will help them win more games next year.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Can people stop dreaming that Richmond is trading us a pick

They have 8 picks and 8 free list spots. Its not happening. GWS also have 7 picks and 7 free list spots. We could give them pick 26 or 73 back but they are also not batshit insane enough to do that

The only way to get picks back is from Port and taking pick 29 which wont happen because other teams have more to offer then we do in the sense they could couple a first rounder with a better pick then 73 this year.