List Mgmt. Contracts, trades, draft - 2022 superstar edition

[Keys]

Link to contract status of all players -

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

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[WCE_phil]

Yeah Ginbey looks very good. Mundy vibes.

Ginbey is a blunt instrument. Not that I don't think he's a worthy second round pick. For our second rounders i'd be looking at either a couple of the SA talls, Kobe Ryan or a couple of the Vic Country mids.

 

[ROYAL EAGLE]

Ginbey, Gilbey the potential second round picks from WA for the draft. Cleaver maybe a 3rd or fourth round pick. Busslinger, Hagan late.

Hewett not looking a top 5 pick.

Busslinger easily looks best top ager talent on ground for me.

So maybe 7 wa players taken in the draft.

Two west perth boy Julian and Bevan i think will get drafted
and Jordan baker

 

[WCE_phil]

Two west perth boy Julian and Bevan i think will get drafted
and Jordan baker

Baker as a rookie, same thoughts with bevan and Julian.

Also my god the skills this champs have been horrendous. Not even just the kicking but can someone please, anyone provide releasing handballs or even just 5 metre handballs that actually make the distance or hit the target......

 

[BartBart]

No.1 pick still not out of reach.

 

[Keys]

Ginbey sounds very much like a Sydney swans pick based on descriptions in this thread

They also have two late first round picks (theirs and Melbourne)

 

[plays tall 1]

Geez Hewett was ordinary, couldn’t get into it at any stage. Looked to be copping some close attention but, even so, would like to see more effort. Looked uninterested at times.

Ginbey, Gilbey, Jones and the under age ruckman looked good. Hagan used it well but seemed to be where the ball wasn’t for the most part. Busslinger some nice intercepts.

 

[WCE_phil]

Ginbey sounds very much like a Sydney swans pick based on descriptions in this thread

They also have two late first round picks (theirs and Melbourne)

Would be a reach imo in saying that there is very little separating pick 12-40 imo.

As a club for us I would happily be selecting the minimum number of players and if the players fit the age and needs profile from other clubs and are AFL quality, even just as B graders i'd happily use our second rounders in trades.

 

[Mattman93]

Ginbey is a blunt instrument.

How so?

 

[Keys]

Would be a reach imo in saying that there is very little separating pick 12-40 imo.

As a club for us I would happily be selecting the minimum number of players and if the players fit the age and needs profile from other clubs and are AFL quality, even just as B graders i'd happily use our second rounders in trades.

Using one of our 2nd round picks, even ours rather than Ports, for Baker not sounding so bad after all

 

[WCE_phil]

How so?

He's hard at the ball and man but not amazing skills, reading of play or marking. Also very physically developed in comparison to some of his contemporaries. Or he's just naturally very strong. Definite AFL level prospect but anyone thinking for anything more than a B grade or defensive mid/defender out of him I think is kidding themselves.

 

[WCE_phil]

Using one of our 2nd round picks, even ours rather than Ports, for Baker not sounding so bad after all

TBH I'm completely open to using pick 2 in a trade for a player. Even if its pick 2 and our 2 seconds for a great young player and a late first back as we have to use one.

The more I watch week to week the more disappointed I am with this years draft crop.

 

[mattyc75]

Hmm let me guess is this because he done his AFL Academy pre training with WCE and had lunch with Shuey and Hurn ..


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If anything those things would make us less likely to take him . Being right under our nose is no indication
I think he showed his wares the other week playing against his peers in his preferred position, which happens to be what we're after
He's played other positions against men and done well too,out of position

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[Keys]

Hmm let me guess is this because he done his AFL Academy pre training with WCE and had lunch with Shuey and Hurn ..


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Shuey and Hurn with the subtle reminder not to play too well has been taken onboard by the sounds of it

 

[WCE1698]

Pick 2 on Wardlaw/Phillipou/Sheezel

Second rounders on Baker/Georgiadies

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

TBH I'm completely open to using pick 2 in a trade for a player. Even if its pick 2 and our 2 seconds for a great young player and a late first back as we have to use one.

The more I watch week to week the more disappointed I am with this years draft crop.

WA have a weak draft this year but SA seem to have their best in years.

 

[Monocle]

He's hard at the ball and man but not amazing skills, reading of play or marking. Also very physically developed in comparison to some of his contemporaries. Or he's just naturally very strong. Definite AFL level prospect but anyone thinking for anything more than a B grade or defensive mid/defender out of him I think is kidding themselves.

I don't actually mind that and given that he always puts his head over the ball and commits to the contest ( not something we are strong on ).
I would be more than happy to take him with our second.
As you say there is a real evenness with picks 12-40 so unless there is a no brainer slider he would be high on my grouping for our second pick.

Nothing wrong with picking up a solid B grader with a second round pick.

What a conundrum it is at the minute deciding who we take with our first rounder.

Hewett was terribly disappointing today........ and with Wardlaw having been out of action for the championships it's difficult to work out the rankings.

For me I still very much like the kid, that the South Australians are doing their best to hide away deep in a forward pocket, when he should be in the midfield.

 

[Coasters7]

Disregarding the logistics it would take to actually get a deal done (moving to Perth and a fat chance of North ever willingly letting him go), what do we reckon LDUs value is? Feel like he could become very good at a club not named North

 

[WCE_phil]

Disregarding the logistics it would take to actually get a deal done (moving to Perth and a fat chance of North ever willingly letting him go), what do we reckon LDUs value is? Feel like he could become very good at a club not named North

I actually think he's worth what he was drafted at considering the shitness he's been playing with. On talent i'd say he's on par with any mid in this years draft and we 100% know he can play.

 

[Coasters7]

I actually think he's worth what he was drafted at considering the shitness he's been playing with. On talent i'd say he's on par with any mid in this years draft and we 100% know he can play.

Interesting that he only signed a 2 year deal last extension. Wonder which party initiated that length

 

[Scotland]

You have parts of things that matter, and parts of things that are neither here nor there. Priority picks have nothing to do with anything. The mere fact you think they are important concerns me. From memory Rance might have been a priority pick. He only had a small influence.

You mention my view is simplistic. Sure, it's simplistic because the mechanics of building a list to win a flag is simplistic. The hard bit is making the right decisions, then the game plan on top and then the coaching ability etc. But the underlying mechanics of a list build - it's simple to understand but hard to do.

Contrary, you're view is jumbled and you place importance on things that aren't really important, and underrate the things that really do matter.


Let's have a look how Richmond built a list that won 3 flags;


2017, 2019, 2020 Premiership Teams
3 flags
Cotchin
Martin
Riewoldt
Prestia
Edwards
Grimes
Vlastuin
Broad
Rioli
Lambert
Castagna
Houli
Astbury
Nankervis

2 flags
Lynch
Ellis
Mcintosh
Caddy
Bolton
Graham
Short
Baker
Pickett

1 flag
Rance
Butler
Townsend
Grigg
Soldo
Balta

Draft Pick Distribution

Top 5 picks
2007 Cotchin #02
2009 Martin #03

Picks #6 - #13
2012 Vlastuin #09
2006 Riewoldt #13

First round trades
2017 Prestia #06
2019 Lynch #03 (#03 is not what Richmond paid, rather the compensation GC received)

Picks #14 - #26
2011 Ellis #15
2015 Rioli #15
2007 Rance #18
2017 Balta #25
2006 Edwards #26

Picks #27 - #67
2016 Bolton #29
2012 Mcintosh #32
2009 Astbury #35
2016 Graham #53
2014 Butler #67
2015 Broad #67

Trades for 2nd - 5th rounders
2017 Caddy 2nd rounder
2017 Nankervis 3rd rounder
2011 Houli 3rd rounder
2016 Townsend 4th rounder
2011 Grigg Swap for a guy no one's ever heard of

Rookie Draft, Pre-season Draft, Pre-season Rookie Draft
2010 Grimes PSD
2015 Short RD
2015 Castagna RD
2015 Lambert RD
2015 Soldo RD
2018 Baker RD
2019 Pickett MSRD

Where did they get their midfield from?
2007 Cotchin #02
2009 Martin #03
2017 Prestia #06
2006 Edwards #26
2016 Bolton #29

Where did they get their KPFs from?
2019 Lynch Trade
2006 Riewoldt #13

Where did they get their defensive unit from?
2012 Vlastuin #09
2007 Rance #18
2009 Astbury #35
2015 Broad #67
2011 Houli 3rd rounder
2010 Grimes PSD

Where did they get their ruck division from?
2017 Nankervis 3rd rounder
2015 Soldo RD
2011 Grigg Swap for a guy no one's ever heard of

Drafting timeline

2006
#13 Riewoldt
#26 Edwards

2007
#02 Cotchin
#18 Rance

2009
#03 Martin
#35 Astbury

2010
PSD Grimes

2011
#15 Ellis
Trade Houli - effectively a 3rd rounder
Trade Grigg - swap for a guy no one's ever heard of

2012
#09 Vlastuin
#32 Mcintosh

2014
#67 Butler

2015
#15 Rioli
#67 Broad
RD Short
RD Castagna
RD Lambert
RD Soldo

2016
#29 Bolton
#53 Graham
Trade Townsend - 4th round pick

2017
#25 Balta
Trade Prestia 1st rounder
Trade Caddy 2nd rounder
Trade Nankervis 3rd rounder

2018
RD Baker

2019
Trade Lynch 1st rounder
MSRD Pickett


What are the take-aways from this?

1 One quarter of their players are players who were not seen to be good enough to be drafted. This fits with the “80% of AFL players are soldiers” theory where their performance is largely determined by the team they are part of. They play like a million bucks in a top 4 side, ok in a middling side, and like dogshit in a bad side.
2 Midfielders and KPFs win flags. Most of their top players in the these positions are high draft picks - Dusty, Cotch, Prestia are top 5, Reiwoldt is 13, and Lynch was a free agent worth #3.
3 Your backline doesn’t have to be top draft picks. Grimes is the big dog and was a PSD. Vlastuin went #09, Rance #18, and the rest are late picks and rookie drafts.
4 You don’t need to spend top picks on ruck divisions. Nankers was an average player at the Swans. Richmond picked him up as he was entering his prime. It cost a 3rd rounder.
5 The key to this team is Dusty and Cotch. Without them (or players equivalent to them), those flags don’t happen. The team is built around them and to a lesser degree Reiwoldt. They got those two players in place early and that allowed Hardwick to bring in all sorts of soldiers to play roles. Interestingly, this profile has some similarities to most flag sides, including Melbourne. They had Viney and Brayshaw. Viney is as hard as nails and Brayshaw was runner up in the Brownlow. But it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t until Petracca and Oliver hit their straps that it all happened for them.


How did Melbourne do it?

The similarity is they too drafted 2 players from top 5 picks who are superstars. They initially had Viney and Brayshaw as their top dogs. They weren't good enough. It wasn't until Oliver and Tracc hit superstardom that they were good enough. Richmond got Dusty and Cotch early and built a team around them, Melbourne built the team and it wasn't until Oliver and Tracc hit their straps that they won.

No Dusty/Cotch = no flags
No Oliver/Tracc = no flags

If you don't have a couple of players of this ilk, it's very hard to win a flag. Even if you do have them, it's far from a guarantee. But the rest of the players are a handful of A-graders and then rank and file soldiers.

#1 priority is to find those players so you shouldn't compromise it under any circumstances.

Richmond didn't play finals for 11 years in a row.

They finished last twice, second last twice and bottom 4 6 times in that time.

Everyone is obsessed with what Melbourne and Richmond have done but both those clubs were hot garbage for a long time.

Freo haven't won shit but people are already praising their recruiting. They haven't played finals since 2015 and had Neale, Hill and Cerra all ask to leave. Are people advocating we go back in time and trade Shuey and Yeo when they were 25 and winning B&Fs? Should we have traded Allen at the end of last season?

 

[Chump Change]

View attachment 1442507

Richmond didn't play finals for 11 years in a row.

They finished last twice, second last twice and bottom 4 6 times in that time.

Everyone is obsessed with what Melbourne and Richmond have done but both those clubs were hot garbage for a long time.

Freo haven't won s**t but people are already praising their recruiting. They haven't played finals since 2015 and had Neale, Hill and Cerra all ask to leave. Are people advocating we go back in time and trade Shuey and Yeo when they were 25 and winning B&Fs? Should we have traded Allen at the end of last season?

Unsure what this has to do with anything? How do you read my post and think this was relevant?

Traded Shuey and Yeo? Trade Allen? No. Again, what has that got to do with anything?

I though my post was pretty simple:

You pretty much need those A+ players. They're mostly midfielders, sometimes KPFs. They are more likely to be found at the pointy end of the draft. So do everything in your power to try to find them.

The fact that Richmond were shit for a decade and a half has f-all to do with f-all.

 

[Kapowie1]

Unsure what this has to do with anything? How do you read my post and think this was relevant?

Traded Shuey and Yeo? Trade Allen? No. Again, what has that got to do with anything?

I though my post was pretty simple:

You pretty much need those A+ players. They're mostly midfielders, sometimes KPFs. They are more likely to be found at the pointy end of the draft. So do everything in your power to try to find them.

The fact that Richmond were s**t for a decade and a half has f-all to do with f-all.

Is Scotland just holding the fort until Miguel logs on?


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[Scotland]

Unsure what this has to do with anything? How do you read my post and think this was relevant?

Traded Shuey and Yeo? Trade Allen? No. Again, what has that got to do with anything?

I though my post was pretty simple:

You pretty much need those A+ players. They're mostly midfielders, sometimes KPFs. They are more likely to be found at the pointy end of the draft. So do everything in your power to try to find them.

The fact that Richmond were s**t for a decade and a half has f-all to do with f-all.

Where did those A+ players come from?

Martin pick 3, Petracca pick 2 (then Brayshaw 3), Oliver pick 4, Cotchin pick 2, Riewoldt pick 13... Etc.

We drafted Judd 3 2001, Naitanui 2 2008, Gaff 4 2010. 3 top 5 picks in 20 years. By my count Melbourne have had 12 (3 2003, 4 2007, 1 2008, 1 & 2 2009, 3 & 4 2012, 2 2013, 2 & 3 2014, 4 2015, 3 2019).

Do you do everything in your power to try to find them, or not? To date WC have not. Because we've prioritised not being terrible at football.

I'm pretty confident if WC have access to the same picks that Melbourne or Richmond had that we'll draft some quality players.

 

[ArdentEagle]

TBH I'm completely open to using pick 2 in a trade for a player. Even if its pick 2 and our 2 seconds for a great young player and a late first back as we have to use one.

The more I watch week to week the more disappointed I am with this years draft crop.

You think we should try turn pick 2 into Bruhn, Rioli and the Midget mate?

* Not much to go on but Wardlaw might be a ripper. Sheezle too.

 

[mattyc75]

Unsure what this has to do with anything? How do you read my post and think this was relevant?

Traded Shuey and Yeo? Trade Allen? No. Again, what has that got to do with anything?

I though my post was pretty simple:

You pretty much need those A+ players. They're mostly midfielders, sometimes KPFs. They are more likely to be found at the pointy end of the draft. So do everything in your power to try to find them.

The fact that Richmond were s**t for a decade and a half has f-all to do with f-all.

It has absolutely everything to do with getting access to the best players, as you say you need those high draft picks to get the cream.
The longer youre down the bottom the more access you have.

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