NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[travelli]

Cyril was Hawthorns highest paid player, 800k per year by reports. Would be at least 4x Burt’s wage.

Cyril is a legend and Burt is coming across like an idiot. Clarko is clearly better resourced than the other families.

I don’t have a problem with the families asking for money. They said in their letter they never did. Contradicted one day later by this report from the Age

Ex-Hawks star Cyril Rioli sought ‘compensation’ during racism inquiry

Cyril Rioli and his wife Shannyn accused former club president Jeff Kennett of fuelling a campaign of “psychological and spiritual warfare” against them.

www.theage.com.au

Think it’s dangerous to assume everything is clear cut in this whole debacle

Why would they make yesterday's statement if it can be proven to be incorrect so easily? Who's advising them here? It immediately takes down their credibility...if it is true.

The leaks are coming thick and fast now.

 

[corporal]

If the racism allegations are true Cyril is well within his rights to demand compensation. However this whole narrative that there is no financial motive at all is incorrect.

 

[Engimal v3]

Cyril was Hawthorns highest paid player, 800k per year by reports. Would be at least 4x Burt’s wage.

Cyril is a legend and Burt is coming across like an idiot. Clarko is clearly better resourced than the other families.

I don’t have a problem with the families asking for money. They said in their letter they never did. Contradicted one day later by this report from the Age

Ex-Hawks star Cyril Rioli sought ‘compensation’ during racism inquiry

Cyril Rioli and his wife Shannyn accused former club president Jeff Kennett of fuelling a campaign of “psychological and spiritual warfare” against them.

www.theage.com.au

Think it’s dangerous to assume everything is clear cut in this whole debacle

Can you copy the article? Paywalled

 

[Econopower]

Cyril was Hawthorns highest paid player, 800k per year by reports. Would be at least 4x Burt’s wage.

Cyril is a legend and Burt is coming across like an idiot. Clarko is clearly better resourced than the other families.

I don’t have a problem with the families asking for money. They said in their letter they never did. Contradicted one day later by this report from the Age

Ex-Hawks star Cyril Rioli sought ‘compensation’ during racism inquiry

Cyril Rioli and his wife Shannyn accused former club president Jeff Kennett of fuelling a campaign of “psychological and spiritual warfare” against them.

www.theage.com.au

Think it’s dangerous to assume everything is clear cut in this whole debacle

Rioli is obviously the exception across the group when it comes to earnings across his career. But even then his career was comparatively short and he will have earned a lot less than Clarkson and Fagan over the journey.

And my comment about compensation was about it being a primary motivator and a reason to lie or stretch the truth.

I absolutely agree they should be compensated if wrong doing is established on the balance of probabilities…

 

[VinnieB]

I don’t think anyone should be surprised that there has been no resolution to this very sad affair.

AFL clubs, and the AFL itself are manifestly ill equipped to deal with, and lack the power to resolve, issues of such enormous sensitivity and complexity. They are also have significant conflicts of interest.

Only the families involved, the two coaches and Burt know precisely what was said in those meetings, and even then the intent and impact will have been felt and interpreted differently.

That said, it seems unlikely to me that so many individuals and their families would have come forward if critical lines hadn’t been crossed.

And I certainly find the accusations that money was the primary motivator distasteful, especially given the lack of evidence for it.

When people argue about what constitutes racism they either forget, are unaware, or simply don’t want to understand that such acts can be committed without the perpetrators being outright, overt bigots or even intending to discriminate.

Inadvertent differential treatment, a lack of cultural awareness and sensitivity, and institutional barriers to inclusion all count.

Think, for example, about what happened at the Crows’ camp. The organisers weren’t trying to be discriminatory but they were nonetheless because they weren’t equipped to understand the impact on indigenous players.

Certainly in this instance Hawthorn had inadequate procedures and policies in place to prevent the alleged discriminatory acts from occurring, or provide a sufficiently safe environment for complaints to be made after the fact.

Clarkson and Fagan will have been told as soon as the allegations came to light, not to say anything by their lawyers. It is just that it is not in their interests to address the specifics given the potential consequences. And that would be the case regardless of the veracity of the claims. Mediation was never going to be possible in the circumstances.

I actually think it would be in the interests of both Brisbane and North to cut ties with their coaches. The allegations will probably (and can’t probably given the circumstances) never be proven. But a lot of ugly things will come out through the HRC process, and it will be a multi-year distraction to their organisations and playing groups.

Maybe that seems unfair to a lot of posters. But the harrowing experiences of the indigenous families involved is even less just. And they certainly won’t be going home to the luxuries the coaches and executives will.

What if some of the most serious allegations are lies? Is that ok?
I do not doubt Hawthorn had inadequate procedures and processes, like practically every AFL club.

Clarkson and Fagan were not told when the allegations came to light. The first they heard was when contacted by the journalist for comment. Anyone would be mad to comment to a journalist on a serious allegation without even knowing the full details. They would have had media training and you are taught to make no comment. I even had media training
working for a multi-national years ago. It's standard.

The clubs should cut ties with their coaches for what reason? When I last saw the ladder, Brisbane was going along well. Fagan seems to have full support for the club.

All because of accusations made by some (not all) disgruntled players, which you are assuming are true.

When the article was published, this moved away from action against the Hawthorn Football Club (which is exactly what it should have been), to action specifically against Clarkson, Fagan and Burton.

I don't know about Clarkson, however, IMO, listening to how vehemently Fagan and Burt want 'their truth' to be heard to clear their names against the most serious accusations, I believe them. And why wouldn't I believe them over a disgruntled player who got cut? Regardless of whether they are indigenous.

The ABC story was the issue. It wouldn't make alot of sense for Hawthorn FC to leak to a journo. So, you could bet either Egan or the wife/player who accused the 3 of advising on the termination, leaked.

 

[brooksnk]

This is a terrible look for the claimants if this leak is accurate. Completely destroys their credibility and forces you to question what else they have said to the media.

This is not denying there may be genuine hurt experienced by them. But there was no need to lie about that. It would have been perfectly accepted by many that they may be seeking compensation. They could have not even commented on financial compensation at all in that letter. But there was a conscious choice to include that - and that is suggestive of underlying motives in my view.

Alongside Phil Egan making those initial recommendations for compensation and reparations, his cousin being one of those interviewed in the report, this thing absolutely reeks now. You can’t help but feel money has been a, if not the, primary motivator in all this right from the beginning.

 

[Rob R]

Why would they make yesterday's statement if it can be proven to be incorrect so easily? Who's advising them here? It immediately takes down their credibility...if it is true.

The leaks are coming thick and fast now.

Evidence is rapidly tilting in favour of HFC and coaches, things may have happened and if proven should be dealt with but with the lies, conflicting statements, one of the complainants causing the stress by leaking the doc, the coaches defamation case is getting stronger against the players

Note only two complainants have lied so the credibility of others isn't impacted and they may well be just trying to improve things.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Festerz]

Cyril was Hawthorns highest paid player, 800k per year by reports. Would be at least 4x Burt’s wage.

Cyril is a legend and Burt is coming across like an idiot. Clarko is clearly better resourced than the other families.

I don’t have a problem with the families asking for money. They said in their letter they never did. Contradicted one day later by this report from the Age

Ex-Hawks star Cyril Rioli sought ‘compensation’ during racism inquiry

Cyril Rioli and his wife Shannyn accused former club president Jeff Kennett of fuelling a campaign of “psychological and spiritual warfare” against them.

www.theage.com.au

Think it’s dangerous to assume everything is clear cut in this whole debacle

The article in question is written by Chip Le Grand.

It is against BF rules and copyright to cut and paste the whole article but this is the core part of the article in my view (as opposed to Le Grand's supposition around what it implies):

Rioli and his wife Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli, in part of a joint statement submitted in December 2022 to the AFL racism inquiry, seen by The Sunday Age, suggested they should also be compensated for the club allowing former president Jeff Kennett to fuel a media campaign which, they say, “ultimately declared psychological and spiritual warfare on us”.

The Age has seen a portion of the statement headed with the title 'reparations' but not the full document.

Rioli’s proposal in the December 2022 statement that he be “paid out in full” for the remainder of his contract was made despite him reaching an earlier settlement with the club when he retired in July 2018.

That agreement, according to three sources with knowledge of the agreement speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential matters, included a “good will” payment to Rioli matching what he would have earned had he played out that season.

Le Grand gives his opinion thus:

The December 2022 statement appears at odds with an open letter by the Riolis, former Hawks players Jermaine Miller-Lewis and Carl Peterson, and the club’s former Indigenous liaison officer Leon Egan which included the statement that 'we never asked for money'.

The players and their partners maintain they are not motivated by money and want to force change at Hawthorn and across the AFL regarding how indigenous footballers are treated. They have initiated proceedings before the Human Right Commission.


There definitely seems to be a fundamental contradiction between that statement in Friday's letter ands what is in the Rioli's December 2022 Statement. But IMHO Le Grand is reaching when he says that the bits of the statement he has seen, relating to Rioli without the full context, is at odds with the statement issued by all the aggrieved parties on Friday.

As is the subsequent commentary of it being the smoking gun proving somehow that money was the motivating factor of all those involved, or even just the Riolis.

Yet again the media is quick to rush to conclusions as to what the real picture is after seeing on a small fragment of it and possibly out of context.

YMMV.

 

[Strange Cat]

yep, we were seen as second class citizens.

I would argue that we are still are seen and treated like that

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Why would they make yesterday's statement if it can be proven to be incorrect so easily? Who's advising them here? It immediately takes down their credibility...if it is true.

The leaks are coming thick and fast now.

It's 2023. Their truth is more important than THE truth. It's no longer a case of getting everything in order before commenting, it's "speak first otherwise you're guilty"

They say it happened, the accused say it didn't, and the truth is somewhere in the middle

 

[All Aust]

Rioli is obviously the exception across the group when it comes to earnings across his career. But even then his career was comparatively short and he will have earned a lot less than Clarkson and Fagan over the journey.

And my comment about compensation was about it being a primary motivator and a reason to lie or stretch the truth.

I absolutely agree they should be compensated if wrong doing is established on the balance of probabilities…

Is there a substantiated reason that you (and others) have bucketed Clarkson and Fagan like they are one and the same? They have different lawyer representation. They don't release joint statements. I am reasonably sure that they had different involvements in the the events that are listed by the complainants.

Burt, due only to his statements has a degree of separation but "bucketing" of the accused seems to be inaccurate. To this point, even considering the complainants are sharing a lawyer, the events that the complainants have applied to addressed will not be common to all of them. Any bucketing of complaints may need to need to be unraveled.

If the application for HRC investigation is successful, it will be a complex process.

 

[Intothewind]

Econopower And they certainly won’t be going home to the luxuries the coaches and executives will....


Good intentions, but poorly worded to imply first nations people inevitably live in lesser circumstances than white people. Very similar to the coaches comment about a nice clean house.

Maybe just drop the 'certainly'.

 

[Strange Cat]

Econopower And they certainly won’t be going home to the luxuries the coaches and executives will....


Good intentions, but poorly worded to imply first nations people inevitably live in lesser circumstances than white people. Very similar to the coaches comment about a nice clean house.

Maybe just drop the 'certainly'.

I thought the comment was more about the financial imbalance between the players and coaches which just adds to the power dynamics between the players and the club in this whole sage

 

[Osho]

AFL clubs, and the AFL itself are manifestly ill equipped to deal with, and lack the power to resolve, issues of such enormous sensitivity and complexity.

I reckon it's simply a matter of priorities and willingness. It always has been. At some point the conclusion that they don't really give a siht can't be denied. I doubt anyone expects perfection. Just to be taken seriously.

I will watch interestedly to see how the promise the AFL made to fulfill wrt complainants and Aborigine players is followed through on.

 

[Osho]

The article in question is written by Chip Le Grand.

It is against BF rules and copyright to cut and paste the whole article but this is the core part of the article in my view (as opposed to Le Grand's supposition around what it implies):

Rioli and his wife Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli, in part of a joint statement submitted in December 2022 to the AFL racism inquiry, seen by The Sunday Age, suggested they should also be compensated for the club allowing former president Jeff Kennett to fuel a media campaign which, they say, “ultimately declared psychological and spiritual warfare on us”.

The Age has seen a portion of the statement headed with the title 'reparations' but not the full document.

Rioli’s proposal in the December 2022 statement that he be “paid out in full” for the remainder of his contract was made despite him reaching an earlier settlement with the club when he retired in July 2018.

That agreement, according to three sources with knowledge of the agreement speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential matters, included a “good will” payment to Rioli matching what he would have earned had he played out that season.

Le Grand gives his opinion thus:

The December 2022 statement appears at odds with an open letter by the Riolis, former Hawks players Jermaine Miller-Lewis and Carl Peterson, and the club’s former Indigenous liaison officer Leon Egan which included the statement that 'we never asked for money'.

The players and their partners maintain they are not motivated by money and want to force change at Hawthorn and across the AFL regarding how indigenous footballers are treated. They have initiated proceedings before the Human Right Commission.


There definitely seems to be a fundamental contradiction between that statement in Friday's letter ands what is in the Rioli's December 2022 Statement. But IMHO Le Grand is reaching when he says that the bits of the statement he has seen, relating to Rioli without the full context, is at odds with the statement issued by all the aggrieved parties on Friday.

As is the subsequent commentary of it being the smoking gun proving somehow that money was the motivating factor of all those involved, or even just the Riolis.

Yet again the media is quick to rush to conclusions as to what the real picture is after seeing on a small fragment of it and possibly out of context.

YMMV.

Too early to say there is a contradiction. More info needed.

On the face of it there are two difference issues: Rioli's end of employment agreement terms; and the complainants demands wrt racism and mistreatment claims.

 

[Festerz]

Too early to say there is a contradiction. More info needed.

On the face of it there are two difference issues: Rioli's end of employment agreement terms; and the complainants demands wrt racism and mistreatment claims.

My feelings exactly.

And on a related matter they talked briefly about the HRC process on ABC Insiders this morning. The comment was made that the AHRC is substantially understaffed and has a long backlog of claims to work through.

It could take two years before the HRC hearing and conciliation process is completed and as its work is done in private the click bait media will continue to stoke the fires of this issue with claims and counter-claims. Would be nice if the media agreed that it was in the best interests of everyone, including the parties involved, to stop speculative reporting and let the HRC process work though. But I think Elvis still being alive is a better chance.

 

[sr36]

It could take two years before the HRC hearing and conciliation process is completed and as its work is done in private the click bait media will continue to stoke the fires of this issue with claims and counter-claims. Would be nice if the media agreed that it was in the best interests of everyone, including the parties involved, to stop speculative reporting and let the HRC process work though. But I think Elvis still being alive is a better chance.

THey'll on report on it as long as public remains - which will die down and occasionally flare up when someone says something new.

 

[Osho]

My feelings exactly.

And on a related matter they talked briefly about the HRC process on ABC Insiders this morning. The comment was made that the AHRC is substantially understaffed and has a long backlog of claims to work through.

It could take two years before the HRC hearing and conciliation process is completed and as its work is done in private the click bait media will continue to stoke the fires of this issue with claims and counter-claims. Would be nice if the media agreed that it was in the best interests of everyone, including the parties involved, to stop speculative reporting and let the HRC process work though. But I think Elvis still being alive is a better chance.

Regarding HRC, at least there is legitimate and transparent process now in place.

Regarding Chip Le Grand, not sure of his pedigree as a journo, but this recent article is dubious to say the least. He deliberately conflates the 2 issues by saying Rioil seeking compensation DURING racist inquiry, instead of saying for employment termination. He was cunning enough not to lie by saying FOR, but not to explain the real reason for the compensation request.

It's bullshite.

 

[blackshadow]

Regarding HRC, at least there is legitimate and transparent process now in place.

Regarding Chip Le Grand, not sure of his pedigree as a journo, but this recent article is dubious to say the least. He deliberately conflates the 2 issues by saying Rioil seeking compensation DURING racist inquiry, instead of saying for employment termination. He was cunning enough not to lie by saying FOR, but not to explain the real reason for the compensation request.

It's bullshite.

Chip is a respected bona fide journalist that generally doesn’t just fall into line with the crowd. He was heavily into the Essendon doping saga and stood apart from the general media herd on that issue.

I don’t think you’d title a document “reparations” over an employment contract issue.

 

[Osho]

Chip is a respected bona fide journalist that generally doesn’t just fall into line with the crowd. He was heavily into the Essendon doping saga and stood apart from the general media herd on that issue.

I don’t think you’d title a document “reparations” over an employment contract issue.

We will have to wait and see.

He did say during and not due to. Id say he chooses his words carefully as a journo?

 

[the big lebowski]

We will have to wait and see.

He did say during and not due to. Id say he chooses his words carefully as a journo?

But Rioli said he wanted compensation for every time the torn jeans joke was mentioned in an article?

What’s that got to do with contract termination?

 

[jdstorm]

Not going to spend much time in this thread.

Just wanted to share some well wishes and support for the indigenous players and their families throughout this process.

That the AFL/Hawthorns approach to the airing of complaints of racist bullying is to enact a media campaign of racist bullying to try and discredit those they have harmed is disgusting.

 

[mighty_lions]

Not going to spend much time in this thread.

Just wanted to share some well wishes and support for the indigenous players and their families throughout this process.

That the AFL/Hawthorns approach to the airing of complaints of racist bullying is to enact a media campaign of racist bullying to try and discredit those they have harmed is disgusting.

money money money

 

[Osho]

But Rioli said he wanted compensation for every time the torn jeans joke was mentioned in an article?

What’s that got to do with contract termination?

I haven't seen that, is that a word for word quote?

 

[JackOutback]

Chip is a respected bona fide journalist that generally doesn’t just fall into line with the crowd. He was heavily into the Essendon doping saga and stood apart from the general media herd on that issue.

I don’t think you’d title a document “reparations” over an employment contract issue.

It’s amazing how much respect you have for journalists that agree with your opinion and so little for (Walkley-winning) ones that don’t.