NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[buttermuffs]

genocide isn't just confined to murder and killing. here's the United Nation's definition of it, hope this helps!

View attachment 1703793
just in case you don't feel like reading it

He likes to use the common meaning though and not the made up definitions by random places like the… uh… UN.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[ferball]

It LITERALLY doesn’t make the UN’s OWN LIST of historical instances of genocide.

But noone’s mind is changing.

No its not. Maybe you should reflect on why.

 

[Festerz]

it's a touch incredulous to just talk about intentions when in practice those "intentions" fell horrifically flat. did it improve the perceived welfare of aboriginal and torres strait islander kids? or did it not?

if it didn't, then why did they do it in the first place? make it make sense please!

my nefarious narratives and agenda of personally identifying that the stolen generation did infact align with many of the "criteria" at the united nations views as being genocide yeah.

in quoting that act, i think you should think about why it might be very uncomfortable for aboriginal and torres strait islander players being told things like "your partner should get an abortion for your playing future"

maybe i'm a bit too much of an evil lefty for thinking that is extremely inappropriate for them to tell anyone that their partner should get an abortion, but especially a minority from a group that had, just a few decades earlier had a government effort to "protect them" which really didn't work too well in "protecting them"

I find myself agreeing to much of what you've said here.

Seems that I have mis-interpreted your post. Apologies. And yes there is more than a little unintended irony given the subject matter of this thread.

I stand by all I've said but it is certainly not directed at you.

 

[Festerz]

A shallow response as expected.

It's the end of the gene pool I always find is best communicating with you.

 

[ferball]

I was talking about what those in power (i.e governments) intended in the early and mid part of the 1900s and comparing it to the motives of those leaders involved in the Hawthorn racism scandal.

i think you're wrong to make those comparisons outright and also wrong to assume good faith on the part of people making those decisions a century ago.

Even assuming good faith, these people were white supremacists and didn't afford any equality of opportunity to the people they stole from their families. But as I said I think its a mistake to assume that good faith.

 

[All Aust]

tell anyone that their partner should get an abortion,

"tell" most likely will be a point of contention between the complainants and the accused.

 

[jannissary]

"tell" most likely will be a point of contention between the complainants and the accused.

with things like this it'll come down to personal interpretation of what it meant. in my opinion it should never have come up, as that is far overstepping coach/player boundaries. i am very interested in seeing what the club says about it, because that made me feel very unwell that it was even brought up by them.

I find myself agreeing to much of what you've said here.

Seems that I have mis-interpreted your post. Apologies. And yes there is more than a little unintended irony given the subject matter of this thread.

I stand by all I've said but it is certainly not directed at you.

i think speaking (or typing) more respectfully might help to prevent further misunderstandings. not to be condescending but snide remarks and insulting other people/users will only hurt your own points when making discussions and arguments such as this

 

[Festerz]

but snide remarks and insulting other people/users will only hurt your own points

Thanks for the advice. But nah.

I just need to read posts of others more carefully and pick my targets more carefully.

 

[the big lebowski]

maybe i'm a bit too much of an evil lefty for thinking that is extremely inappropriate for them to tell anyone that their partner should get an abortion, but especially a minority from a group that had, just a few decades earlier had a government effort to "protect them" which really didn't work too well in "protecting them"

If a coach pushed for that, it’s highly inappropriate. I’m not a lefty and I fully agree with the premise.

I don’t know what was said or wasn’t said, just like you. Now we know the names of these people we can say that Karl Peterson alleged that in the abc article, not I believe in the truth telling.

The coaches flat out deny that was said.

Peterson made a submission to the afl investigation. So whilst it wasn’t vigorously considered, it was at least considered. And the coaches didn’t need to do much to defend themselves there.

But most strikingly to me is that the signed letter yesterday, from Peterson, does not say abortion. Assuming it refers to Peterson it’s a completely different allegation to “kill your kid”.

 

[jannissary]

If a coach pushed for that, it’s highly inappropriate. I’m not a lefty and I fully agree with the premise.

I don’t know what was said or wasn’t said, just like you. Now we know the names of these people we can say that Karl Peterson alleged that in the abc article, not I believe in the truth telling.

The coaches flat out deny that was said.

Peterson made a submission to the afl investigation. So whilst it wasn’t vigorously considered, it was at least considered. And the coaches didn’t need to do much to defend themselves there.

But most strikingly to me is that the signed letter yesterday, from Peterson, does not say abortion. Assuming it refers to Peterson it’s a completely different allegation to “kill your kid”.

it'll come out eventually, but i personally believe the players because something like that being said would likely not be noted down and it wouldn't be something to lie about too.

it'll come down to the interpretation of the HRC or the courts or wherever they're going next

 

[the big lebowski]

it'll come out eventually, but i personally believe the players because something like that being said would likely not be noted down and it wouldn't be something to lie about too.

it'll come down to the interpretation of the HRC or the courts or wherever they're going next

I can agree that it’s unlikely that clarko wrote down “just instructed KP to force his Mrs to get an abortion”

As I said the letter yesterday seemed to be a softening of the allegation in that it didn’t mention an instruction to terminate a pregnancy.

 

[Gralin]

Festerz mcgrath_truther ferball

the deeper discussions around the stolen generation really should be taken elswhere, we can start a thread on SRP if you like

 

[Gralin]

I can agree that it’s unlikely that clarko wrote down “just instructed KP to force his Mrs to get an abortion”

As I said the letter yesterday seemed to be a softening of the allegation in that it didn’t mention an instruction to terminate a pregnancy.

it did not do anything like that at all

 

[jannissary]

Festerz mcgrath_truther ferball

the deeper discussions around the stolen generation really should be taken elswhere, we can start a thread on SRP if you like

i've said all i've needed to say on the matter

 

[FlyHigh18]

it did not do anything like that at all

Except it did.

Instead of stating the main allegation (i.e. the exact quote) a watered down version was used instead.

And in such an important and serious letter.

 

[Gralin]

Except it did.

Instead of stating the main allegation (i.e. the exact quote) a watered down version was used instead.

And in such an important and serious letter.

no it did not water down allegations

its an open letter from a group of people

amazing how many people that want to pretend things are being walked back barrack for clubs coached by people implicated

 

[FlyHigh18]

no it did not water down allegations

its an open letter from a group of people

amazing how many people that want to pretend things are being walked back barrack for clubs coached by people implicated

I’ll spell it out for you.

Demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child, is what kick started it.

Told an unborn child would ruin our futures, is now what it’s been watered down to.

Surely I don’t need to spell out the difference here from a legal sense.

 

[Gralin]

I’ll spell it out for you.

Demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child, is what kick started it.

Told an unborn child would ruin our futures, is now what it’s been watered down to.

Surely I don’t need to spell out the difference here from a legal sense.

its pretty simple I don't see the open letter as watering down the allegation given it doesn't include every player that was part of the report

I'm also not really interested in lawyer style word games, we're not a court here

 

[sr36]

I’ll spell it out for you.

Demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child, is what kick started it.

Told an unborn child would ruin our futures, is now what it’s been watered down to.

Surely I don’t need to spell out the difference here from a legal sense.

The letter spoke in generalisations rather than being specific about allegations.

So it seems strange to be reading anything into one of the allegations not being described as specifically as in Jackson's article.

 

[JackOutback]

Suggest you and others here take a breath and read what I posted and reflect.

What I posted was this:



Do you see it now?

I was not making a comment about genocide and what happened as a result of the stolen generation policies (but hey thanks all for the helpful cut and pastes to suit your own narratives.)

Nor was I 'denying the stolen generation was genocide'… Jesus!

I was talking about what those in power (i.e governments) intended in the early and mid part of the 1900s and comparing it to the motives of those leaders involved in the Hawthorn racism scandal.

You do not need to lecture me about the direct and ongoing impacts of the Stolen Generation or how it is now interpreted ex post. Black fellas always knew what it was. And white fellas only used the term 'genocide' as it ended.

What will we call what the Hawthorn Three allegedly tried to do with their Indigenous players and their families as we look back on that in history?

After all - those three fellas- Burt, Clarkson and Fagan were only doing what they thought was in the best interests of the moral and physical welfare of those players - to maximise their chances of success in the AFL. As they thought best.

Now take a look at the wording of S13A of the Aboriginal Welfare Act No. 2 of 1915:

The Board may assume full control and custody of the child of any aborigine, if after due inquiry it is satisfied that such a course is in the interest of the moral and physical welfare of such child. The Board may thereupon remove such child to such control and care as it thinks best.

Get it? The similarities in intent- a century apart? Nah, didn't think so.

Much easier to play cheap point scoring semantics with google than to maybe think about the pivot point around which this saga has evolved and progressed.

i.e. The difference between what was done, what was said and what was intended on one side and what was heard, what was interpreted and what was felt on the other. And between them both a couple of hundred years of cultural division, mistreatment, loss and ignorance.

But yeah. Give me another cut and paste of the dictionary definition of genocide to reflect on. Because that's what matters.

FMD.

The architect of the Stolen Generations policy, A.O Neville, said the goal of the policy was to breed out Aboriginality. Flowery words in the Act as written doesn’t change the intent.

No issue is binary and I don’t doubt there were some well intentioned people who didn’t realise just how spectacularly wrong they got it, but the policy was designed to eliminate Aboriginal people.

 

[campbell]

The architect of the Stolen Generations policy, A.O Neville, said the goal of the policy was to breed out Aboriginality. Flowery words in the Act as written doesn’t change the intent.

No issue is binary and I don’t doubt there were some well intentioned people who didn’t realise just how spectacularly wrong they got it, but the policy was designed to eliminate Aboriginal people.

yep, we were seen as second class citizens.

 

[Bluelegs]

IMHO Jason Burt is starting to look like the absolute worst of the trio in terms of his total lack of self awareness as indicated by his social media postings in what is a very sensitive situation.

And a person who seems absolutely unsuited to his role as a player welfare manager.

Hard to say for sure as the other two have kept their mouths shut to this stage but Burt does seem to be digging himself into a hole.

 

[Econopower]

I don’t think anyone should be surprised that there has been no resolution to this very sad affair.

AFL clubs, and the AFL itself are manifestly ill equipped to deal with, and lack the power to resolve, issues of such enormous sensitivity and complexity. They are also have significant conflicts of interest.

Only the families involved, the two coaches and Burt know precisely what was said in those meetings, and even then the intent and impact will have been felt and interpreted differently.

That said, it seems unlikely to me that so many individuals and their families would have come forward if critical lines hadn’t been crossed.

And I certainly find the accusations that money was the primary motivator distasteful, especially given the lack of evidence for it.

When people argue about what constitutes racism they either forget, are unaware, or simply don’t want to understand that such acts can be committed without the perpetrators being outright, overt bigots or even intending to discriminate.

Inadvertent differential treatment, a lack of cultural awareness and sensitivity, and institutional barriers to inclusion all count.

Think, for example, about what happened at the Crows’ camp. The organisers weren’t trying to be discriminatory but they were nonetheless because they weren’t equipped to understand the impact on indigenous players.

Certainly in this instance Hawthorn had inadequate procedures and policies in place to prevent the alleged discriminatory acts from occurring, or provide a sufficiently safe environment for complaints to be made after the fact.

Clarkson and Fagan will have been told as soon as the allegations came to light, not to say anything by their lawyers. It is just that it is not in their interests to address the specifics given the potential consequences. And that would be the case regardless of the veracity of the claims. Mediation was never going to be possible in the circumstances.

I actually think it would be in the interests of both Brisbane and North to cut ties with their coaches. The allegations will probably (and can’t probably given the circumstances) never be proven. But a lot of ugly things will come out through the HRC process, and it will be a multi-year distraction to their organisations and playing groups.

Maybe that seems unfair to a lot of posters. But the harrowing experiences of the indigenous families involved is even less just. And they certainly won’t be going home to the luxuries the coaches and executives will.

 

[VinnieB]

To clarify, Leon Egan was a staff member at Hawthorn who told his brother the Hawthorn FC was racist.
Why did Hawthorn have a staff member's brother run the truth telling process? I'm sure he went into it already familiar with the situation. Could he have prompted those he questioned? Leading questions? Should have been completely independent.

I'd also like to know if Leon Egan actually informed the club of his own concerns over the period he was employed there. I would have thought his duty was to so. If Hawthorn swept his concerns under the rug, then there is an issue. If he remained silent, well he has failed in his position.

 

[archie965]

And they certainly won’t be going home to the luxuries the coaches and executives will.

Cyril was Hawthorns highest paid player, 800k per year by reports. Would be at least 4x Burt’s wage.

Cyril is a legend and Burt is coming across like an idiot. Clarko is clearly better resourced than the other families.

I don’t have a problem with the families asking for money. They said in their letter they never did. Contradicted one day later by this report from the Age

Ex-Hawks star Cyril Rioli sought ‘compensation’ during racism inquiry

Cyril Rioli and his wife Shannyn accused former club president Jeff Kennett of fuelling a campaign of “psychological and spiritual warfare” against them.

www.theage.com.au

Think it’s dangerous to assume everything is clear cut in this whole debacle