Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[smish]

No, the need to use the word ‘champ’ is the true melt.

You got me “hero”

 

[RCAB]

Writing Hawthorn off for any medium-long term scale is very foolish.

Not really.

We were pretty shit for nearly a decade recently and then after 1991, despite making finals a few times, we were pretty average for 15 years.

What was foolish was misjudging Hawthorn's list recently.

People still think we have an average list despite it being one of the youngest.

Hawthorn's defence has always been elite, just that we sucked in the midfield for quite a while. People got sucked into thinking that All Australian awards are sent from God on rock tablets. Didn't rate defenders like Sicily and Hardwick correctly, and so on.

SYL said that our midfield had improved immensely after Mitchell took over. He got rid O'Meara and Mitchell, pushed Nash and Day info midfield and we drafted Newcombe. The clearance stats proved this but SYL got smacked for saying as much, and opposition supporters saying how can Hawks have a top midfield if their second last on the ladder?

I further added that Hawthorn had the worst forward line in the comp and that's why the reason our midfield would struggle (despite winning midfield battles) we lacked connection in the forward line.

In one season we added, Watson, Ginnivan, Chol, Gunston, Dear and kept Breust. We saw more improvement from MacDonald. Everyone thought Dogs had the best forward line in the comp, can you safely say that after last week?

I don't know if Hawthorn have the best forward line in the comp but they arguably the best small forward line in the comp. In one season we fixed our biggest weakness and made it a strength.

The fact that Hawthorn a bottom 4 team and went from 0-5 and made top 6 is surprising, as it's never been done before 150 years. The fact we have improved and looked like a contender at some point in time, just means you didn't understand simple concepts like age profile, talent acquisition and coaching.

 

[hawkman]

Writing Hawthorn off for any medium-long term scale is very foolish.

Writing any team off for any medium-long term scale is very foolish.

*Except Essendon

 

[Mr Meow]

Not really.

We were pretty shit for nearly a decade recently and then after 1991, despite making finals a few times, we were pretty average for 15 years.

What was foolish was misjudging Hawthorn's list recently.

People still think we have an average list despite it being one of the youngest.

Hawthorn's defence has always been elite, just that we sucked in the midfield for quite a while. People got sucked into thinking that All Australian awards are sent from God on rock tablets. Didn't rate defenders like Sicily and Hardwick correctly, and so on.

SYL said that our midfield had improved immensely after Mitchell took over. He got rid O'Meara and Mitchell, pushed Nash and Day info midfield and we drafted Newcombe. The clearance stats proved this but SYL got smacked for saying as much, and opposition supporters saying how can Hawks have a top midfield if their second last on the ladder?

I further added that Hawthorn had the worst forward line in the comp and that's why the reason our midfield would struggle (despite winning midfield battles) we lacked connection in the forward line.

In one season we added, Watson, Ginnivan, Chol, Gunston, Dear and kept Breust. We saw more improvement from MacDonald. Everyone thought Dogs had the best forward line in the comp, can you safely say that after last week?

I don't know if Hawthorn have the best forward line in the comp but they arguably the best small forward line in the comp. In one season we fixed our biggest weakness and made it a strength.

The fact that Hawthorn a bottom 4 team and went from 0-5 and made top 6 is surprising, as it's never been done before 150 years. The fact we have improved and looked like a contender at some point in time, just means you didn't understand simple concepts like age profile, talent acquisition and coaching.

Danny, you quoted me but I feel like only the first 30 words corrected anything I have said about Hawthorn this year.

 

[randyzany]

No, the need to use the word ‘champ’ is the true melt.

Trolls use the word 'melt' whenever anybody drops truth bombs on them and don't have a reasonable counter argument to offer as rebuttal.

 

[RCAB]

Danny, you quoted me but I feel like only the first 30 words corrected anything I have said about Hawthorn this year.

I'm not sure what your insinuating here.

I thought I had articulated my point well enough.

I don't believe it's foolish to right off Hawthorn when they've had long periods of time without much success.

My point is that it's foolish to write off very young teams who benchmark well in the youth department, albeit sometimes they're inconsistent.

 

[RCAB]

Trolls use the word 'melt' whenever anybody drops truth bombs on them and don't have a reasonable counter argument to offer as rebuttal.

To be fair I didn't even bother to reply to that Vinnie post which was a whole heap about nothing. He posted 500 times in the youth thread, most of those posts alluded to Hawthorn not having any a grade players, and their coach being no good. But apparently he didn't do this according to him. Like I said before, he's got no credibility.

 

[Mr Meow]

I'm not sure what you're  insinuating here.

I thought I had articulated my point well enough.

I don't believe it's foolish to write off Hawthorn when they've had long periods without much success.

My point is that it's foolish to write off very young teams who benchmark well in the youth department, albeit sometimes they're inconsistent.

You seem keen for an argument.

I don't think it's wise writing Hawthorn off in the medium to long term (your version of long term seems smaller than mine. We all have different sizes, there's no shame in it).

The Hawks have had a couple of mini dry spells over the last 40 odd years. They tend to bounce back into contention after a solid period of good draft picks.

Then the rest of your essay, if addressed to me, was a straw man argument. As I certainly never wrote off or diminished this Hawthorn list. Their rise in my eyes was only a matter of time. Tag others who said this list is terrible if you need to spark that "debate" up again to score points.

 

[randyzany]

It's surprising though that the Hawks are doing as well under Sam Mitchell as they are thus far. Because generally highly skilled players usually don't tend to make good coaches as they seemed to struggle to relate and empathise with the abilities of the average less talented player and demand certain standards and objectives that are simply not realistic from the team as a whole.

It'll be interesting to see how far this team can go or whether the Hawks are just riding a wave of temporary momentum of hot form that may dwindle in upcoming years; similar to what happened with Baby Bombers in 1993.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's bizarre that a team playing in finals and regarded as relatively heavy favourites in their next match, still has a rebuilding thread open. At this rate it it will remain open forever or at least overlap several rebuilds. lol

 

[VinnieB]

Trolls use the word 'melt' whenever anybody drops truth bombs on them and don't have a reasonable counter argument to offer as rebuttal.

Yep, 2 from 2

Nice melt champ

 

[smish]

Yep, 2 from 2

Nah, more so your petulant meltdown after being outed as way off the mark.

 

[TheFourPillars]

It's surprising though that the Hawks are doing as well under Sam Mitchell as they are thus far. Because generally highly skilled players usually don't tend to make good coaches as they seemed to struggle to relate and empathise with the abilities of the average less talented player and demand certain standards and objectives that are simply not realistic from the team as a whole.

It'll be interesting to see how far this team can go or whether the Hawks are just riding a wave of temporary momentum of hot form that may dwindle in upcoming years; similar to what happened with Baby Bombers in 1993.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's bizarre that a team playing in finals and regarded as relatively heavy favourites in their next match, still has a rebuilding thread open. At this rate it it will remain open forever or at least overlap several rebuilds. lol

This is highly innacurate. For one when Sam started his career he wasn't Darren Jarman. He had to work extremely hard firstly to even get drafted and then on his kicking deficiencies to make him the player he was at the end of his career. It took many years of diligence to the cause. What he didn't tolerate during his playing career was players that don't work hard. His mentality being if I can do it they can bloody do it.

As coach he seems to have mellowed and is much more empathetic. It is Sam's philosophy (game plan) and the way we play. The adoption (buy in) of said philosophy by the players that has made us a good football side. The skills have come from working on the track. They will continue to improve just like Sam did over his career

 

[NetworkNerd]

The fact that Hawthorn a bottom 4 team and went from 0-5 and made top 6 is surprising, as it's never been done before 150 years. The fact we have improved and looked like a contender at some point in time, just means you didn't understand simple concepts like age profile, talent acquisition and coaching.

Sydney did it in 2017. In fact were 0-6 then made a semi final

 

[sr36]

It's surprising though that the Hawks are doing as well under Sam Mitchell as they are thus far. Because generally highly skilled players usually don't tend to make good coaches as they seemed to struggle to relate and empathise with the abilities of the average less talented player and demand certain standards and objectives that are simply not realistic from the team as a whole.

Sammy was an ordinary athlete who had clean hands and a neat kick. He became a star through being mentally sharper, harder working and reading and understanding the game brilliantly.

 

[randyzany]

Sammy was an ordinary athlete who had clean hands and a neat kick. He became a star through being mentally sharper, harder working and reading and understanding the game brilliantly.

This is highly innacurate. For one when Sam started his career he wasn't Darren Jarman. He had to work extremely hard firstly to even get drafted and then on his kicking deficiencies to make him the player he was at the end of his career. It took many years of diligence to the cause. What he didn't tolerate during his playing career was players that don't work hard. His mentality being if I can do it they can bloody do it.

As coach he seems to have mellowed and is much more empathetic. It is Sam's philosophy (game plan) and the way we play. The adoption (buy in) of said philosophy by the players that has made us a good football side. The skills have come from working on the track. They will continue to improve just like Sam did over his career

That is what I'm referring to, Mitchell possessed skills that most players do not have in their repertoire and that can lead to frustration from former star players turned coaches that can’t understand why the group he now coaches can’t execute plays like he could.

So far so good though, he seems to have instilled a game plan that accommodates all skill levels; he's not expecting and demanding a level of performance that is outside the abilities a particular player is capable of.

 

[RCAB]

Sydney did it in 2017. In fact were 0-6 then made a semi final

Sydney were not a bottom 4 team, far from it. They finished on top of the ladder and made the Grand Final the previous year. Hawthorn were 3rd last the previous season and started this season 0-5.

 

[RCAB]

That is what I'm referring to, Mitchell possessed skills that most players do not have in their repertoire and that can lead to frustration from former star players turned coaches that can’t understand why the group he now coaches can’t execute plays like he could.

So far so good though, he seems to have instilled a game plan that accommodates all skill levels; he's not expecting and demanding a level of performance that is outside the abilities a particular player is capable of.

But Mitchell started out as a bad kick. I remember going to the footy with my mate and he always was complained about how bad of a kick Sam Mitchell was.

 

[randyzany]

But Mitchell started out as a bad kick. I remember going to the footy with my mate and he always was complained about how bad of a kick Sam Mitchell was.

I get that he improved his skills significantly from when he started out but he is an outlier/exception, not the norm.

It'll be foolish for most reasonable decent coaches to ever expect that level of improvement from the majority of the players under his wings.

At least I don't recall ever seeing a team that resembled 22 Mitchell’s in skill level; that team would be a contender for the greatest of all time.

 

[Gazza Greatness]

I'm not sure what your insinuating here.

I thought I had articulated my point well enough.

I don't believe it's foolish to right off Hawthorn when they've had long periods of time without much success.

My point is that it's foolish to write off very young teams who benchmark well in the youth department, albeit sometimes they're inconsistent.

Mr Meow: is 'for you' NOT against you and we both agree with your assessments and have nothing but the greatest respect for you guys. With me personally having Sam Mitchell, when as a player being my very favourite non-Geelong player for sometime. And it was Sam, not Buddy, Hodgy or Roughy that was Geelong's constant danger vs Hawthorn games, even in that Hawks losing streak. He was such a great player and 'play-maker', underestimated by many, tough as nails, incredible skills on both sides of body and had wonderful footy brain and if ever, anyone player was going to make a 'great coach' then it was going to be Sam and even 'til this day I follow and support him, just because I love his footy brain and mind.

 

[sr36]

That is what I'm referring to, Mitchell possessed skills that most players do not have in their repertoire and that can lead to frustration from former star players turned coaches that can’t understand why the group he now coaches can’t execute plays like he could.

So far so good though, he seems to have instilled a game plan that accommodates all skill levels; he's not expecting and demanding a level of performance that is outside the abilities a particular player is capable of.

Like all the really smart players, he was always going to have the understanding of the game. It's whether or not he had the player management skills and creativity to solve problems and select or choose new ideas. Looking like he does.

 

[DrEvil_]

It's surprising though that the Hawks are doing as well under Sam Mitchell as they are thus far. Because generally highly skilled players usually don't tend to make good coaches as they seemed to struggle to relate and empathise with the abilities of the average less talented player and demand certain standards and objectives that are simply not realistic from the team as a whole.

It'll be interesting to see how far this team can go or whether the Hawks are just riding a wave of temporary momentum of hot form that may dwindle in upcoming years; similar to what happened with Baby Bombers in 1993.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's bizarre that a team playing in finals and regarded as relatively heavy favourites in their next match, still has a rebuilding thread open. At this rate it it will remain open forever or at least overlap several rebuilds. lol

It's a tanking thread.

 

[randyzany]

It's a tanking thread.

Hawthorn are still tanking at this moment in time when they're favourites in a final away from home? It's a thread that has out lived its purpose from where I'm standing.

My impression is that there are some who enjoy keeping the thread up to stick it up those who made unflattering assessments of the Hawks rebuilding progress; a sort of reverse troll to even the ledger so to speak.

 

[Hawker55]

It's surprising though that the Hawks are doing as well under Sam Mitchell as they are thus far. Because generally highly skilled players usually don't tend to make good coaches as they seemed to struggle to relate and empathise with the abilities of the average less talented player and demand certain standards and objectives that are simply not realistic from the team as a whole.

It'll be interesting to see how far this team can go or whether the Hawks are just riding a wave of temporary momentum of hot form that may dwindle in upcoming years; similar to what happened with Baby Bombers in 1993.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's bizarre that a team playing in finals and regarded as relatively heavy favourites in their next match, still has a rebuilding thread open. At this rate it it will remain open forever or at least overlap several rebuilds. lol

I think the key in that is that Sam while yes a highly skilled player had to work pretty hard to get onto a list and get recognised.

 

[randyzany]

I think the key in that is that Sam while yes a highly skilled player had to work pretty hard to get onto a list and get recognised.

Not disputing that but merely wondering whether he could still relate to and effectively coach players who are not capable of reaching the level of improvement he did.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawthorn are still tanking at this moment in time when they're favourites in a final away from home? It's a thread that has out lived its purpose from where I'm standing.

My impression is that there are some who enjoy keeping the thread up to stick it up those who made unflattering assessments of the Hawks rebuilding progress; a sort of reverse troll to even the ledger so to speak.

It’s a beautiful thread.