I don't think we should've got Burgoyne. (again)

[rich_hawk]

Possibly.

I think the fact that he hasn't improved as much as we all expected has something to do with it. Also being a pick 3.

He looks fantastic at training, might take another year before he consistently has big impacts on games.

He'll be a star.

He was great at first, but yes its his lack of improvement which is frustrating. His injuries definitely set him back a fair way but I have confidence that he'll become a very good player

 

[Powerade 08]

I find it really difficult to be mad at him. I believe he left Port on good terms and didn't want us to be screwed over in the trade. He didn't get involved in the fight either which was good to see.

Such a frustrating player though. Gives up on chases, shows glimpses and has everything he needs to be Judd-like but never quite got there. Give him a pre-season and see what happens.

If you win a flag with him I don't think hodgepodge is going to be too unhappy.

 

[JustKickIt]

Burgoyne is/will be a great acquisition.

We have the current FWD power of Franklin and Roughead at our disposal, and to increase supply to them we needed more MF depth

Another reason why they should stay in the forward line instead of wandering up past the center. At the moment SB would have to try to bounce it through from 70 as the forward line is often vacant.

 

[BigAl3001]

Dear HodgePodge.

Burgoyne = known commodity.

Pick 9 = ??????

How about you judge in 4-5 years like you say the success of this trade?

 

[whiteTiga2k]

Sorry hodgepodge... i just think u've had something against him since his arrival... to be able to come up with a thread like this.

Some of his work against the top class teams has been sensational.

Pick ONE bad game to hammer the guy? thats just stupid. Sorry man... kinda deserve the backlash here as burgoynes input in the 10 games before yesterday has contributed significantly to us being touted as a chance for the flag.

Pick 9... and an aging willo...

i think it was a sensational swap for a silk.

 

[gianytee]

Burgoyne was hardly a risk if we missed out on the next selwood or bartel in the draft then id be mad but pick 9 and a first round pick from mark williams is gardly anything experience is needed!!! look at the hawks last year we crumbled without leadership burgoyne adds more than just talent!!


Anyays the Xavier Ellis argument is a joke he is underrated by every1 he clearly gets bagged coz the way he plays and dowler contriutes to it. If we had gotten Pendlebury or Ryder at pick 5 ellis wouldnt be bagged so often ppl will say that draft sucked but in fairness dowler has sucked not ellis the way ellis plays is needed at hawks every1 loves to see burgoyne, rioli, buddy and young slotting them from 50 but some1 has to do the in and hard stuff and ellis, mitchell, sewell are our best and from what weve seen ellis never gets intimidated by bigger bodys in midfeild the way he played against cats and saints proves that he will always be underrated but a quality player nontheless

 

[Slattery_20]

Wait - you like Ellis because he goes in hard and doesn't get intimidated?
Odd person to pick out for that.

 

[bungholes_premiers]

Oh God some peoples intelligence levels are really shown up on this board at times ...

 

[Hawka19]

I don't care if he makes AA for the next five years, I just don't think getting SB was a good idea.

Sure we needed a ready made player, but is it worth missing out on a 10 year player like Lewis Jetta or Kane Lucas?

Lucas is practically ready made, and even Jetta is getting enough of the ball to suggest we should've picked him. Plus we need his speed.

Discuss.

Coming from you Hodgepodge, this absolutely shocks me like no other thread has this year.

 

[Hawka19]

I find it really difficult to be mad at him. I believe he left Port on good terms and didn't want us to be screwed over in the trade. He didn't get involved in the fight either which was good to see.

Such a frustrating player though. Gives up on chases, shows glimpses and has everything he needs to be Judd-like but never quite got there. Give him a pre-season and see what happens.

If you win a flag with him I don't think hodgepodge is going to be too unhappy.

Which was why your local crowd at AAMI on the weekend were disgraceful with their constant booing of him. He could've done what many players do but he obviously went through all the proper channels with both clubs to make sure everyone got what they wanted.

 

[EightyNineChamps]

HP, I was a little dubious when we went and got him, while I did think he was a good player I didn't realise just how cool and collected this guy is in very heavy traffic.

Some of his clearance work is just sensational not to mention his little gives to guys in space. Love the way he is able to absorb a tackle and still have time to get the ball to the best option.

I don't see any down side to Burgoyne and he is still getting fitter and yet to gel 100% into the team.

BTW re Ellis, some people are a little hard to please, this guy would walk into any of the top sides!

 

[jedi master]

Here's some facts:

- Burgoyne has been good this year, not excellent
- He's coming off a hindered prep
- He has dodgy knees
- We'll find it tough to win it from the bottom of the eight
- Burgers is 28 at the end of this year
- 2009 was the last uncompromised draft for a while
- We gave up a first-rounder to get him

Given this, I can see the OP's concerns.

I don't know if I agree, but I certainly wouldn't have been upset if we got Melksham or someone of his calibre, who looks a 10-plus year player.

I'm unsure if Burgoyne will still be playing in 2014. I hope he can get some zip back. Yes, he's cool when he gets it, but some pace through there would be nice - esp given Sammy, Sewelly, Lewy and co aren't exactly hares. And Patrick Bateman doesn't seem to have the same zip of 2008.

Who knows, maybe we can jag a jet this year with pick 309 ...

 

[Papa G]

Which was why your local crowd at AAMI on the weekend were disgraceful with their constant booing of him. He could've done what many players do but he obviously went through all the proper channels with both clubs to make sure everyone got what they wanted.

I don't think he left the club on the best of terms because he requested a trade, now whether that was the clubs fault or for personal/family reasons (I have heard the latter) I don't really know. Many Port supporters feel that he abandoned us and hence the booing. I did not not partake in this myself because he is a premiership player of my club and I don't hate him.

For those wondering, Pick 9 was on display on Saturday, Andrew Moore. Played okay and is just a kid. Give it few years before you can make any comparisons on the true worth of the trade, but I'd suggest over that time that Burgoyne, if he remains fit, will give you more of a tilt at the ultimate prize than any pick 9 would.

 

[Powerade 08]

Which was why your local crowd at AAMI on the weekend were disgraceful with their constant booing of him.

This happens with every half decent player who is traded.

 

[The BIG X]

I don't think he left the club on the best of terms because he requested a trade, now whether that was the clubs fault or for personal/family reasons (I have heard the latter) I don't really know. Many Port supporters feel that he abandoned us and hence the booing. I did not not partake in this myself because he is a premiership player of my club and I don't hate him.

For those wondering, Pick 9 was on display on Saturday, Andrew Moore. Played okay and is just a kid. Give it few years before you can make any comparisons on the true worth of the trade, but I'd suggest over that time that Burgoyne, if he remains fit, will give you more of a tilt at the ultimate prize than any pick 9 would.

No guarantee we would have picked up Moore or even Pick 10, 11 or so on..

Right now I am very happy with Burgers and still offer H Podge to come up with his pick 9 choice with the 20/20 rear vision

 

[Hawka19]

This happens with every half decent player who is traded.

I don't boo McGlynn or Kennedy. I fully understand the reasons for them going and I always hope they play well (except when playing against Hawthorn).

Can understand the passion of the game clouds supporters minds so they just mindlessly boo people but there would be many more reasons for a player to leave than what the media would have us believe.

 

[Ordovician]

Here's some facts:

- Burgoyne has been good this year, not excellent
- He's coming off a hindered prep
- He has dodgy knees
- We'll find it tough to win it from the bottom of the eight
- Burgers is 28 at the end of this year
- 2009 was the last uncompromised draft for a while
- We gave up a first-rounder to get him

Given this, I can see the OP's concerns.

I don't know if I agree, but I certainly wouldn't have been upset if we got Melksham or someone of his calibre, who looks a 10-plus year player.

I'm unsure if Burgoyne will still be playing in 2014. I hope he can get some zip back. Yes, he's cool when he gets it, but some pace through there would be nice - esp given Sammy, Sewelly, Lewy and co aren't exactly hares. And Patrick Bateman doesn't seem to have the same zip of 2008.

Who knows, maybe we can jag a jet this year with pick 309 ...

Agree entirely.

What I find most disturbing about his play is that he is not quick and he can't kick much more than 40 metres (he certainly can't slot a goal from +40m). Also if we get 70 games out of him we will be very lucky.

What I find most disturbing about his recruitment is that the Pelchin- Clakson duumvirate still thinks the 2010 -2013 premiership window is still open in spite of it being severely compromised by:

(i) the poor recruiting of 2005-7 which from all of the high draft picks that we had has netted the club one potential elite player (Rioli), no potential A graders and a handful of stock standard AFL players (Ellis, Birchall, Renouf, possibly Whitecross) whilst the rest are either marginal (Muston, Bailey, Tuck) on the way out (Dowler, Morton, Moss) or already gorn (Thorp, Kennedy). That is a very very poor strike rate compared to talent taken under pick 30 in the last three drafts.

(ii) the unexpected and premature retirement, and loss of so many valuable front line players which have really hurt the club in the 2009 and 2010 seasons ie Croad, Dew, Boyle and Willaims (traded but crueled by injuries).

It is perfectly clear that the talent from all of these high drafts picks (ie 3, 6, 6, 12, 14, 18, 22, 24, 29, 33 and two famous father sons) was meant infuse the team with a quite a few A graders and provide some real depth to the team during the premiership years 2010-3. In 2010 these draftees would be 20-23 in 2010 entering their peak years, and in 2013 they would be 24-27 and at their peak at the end of the window.

Thus the club was in tough position at the end of the 09 season. Should it either:

(i) Top up to support a plan that was clearly broken and support the older players (Bateman, Guerra, Mitchell, Brown, Hodge, Sewell, Gilham) who will be largely gone by 2015, in quest for another flag over the next few years

or

(ii) should adopt a more conservative strategy and try and get some young talent in the last uncompromised draft to replace the natural loss of key players especially midfielders around 2013-5 and thereby give Roughead and Franklin some chance of flag success towards there latter years around 2014-18 remembering that a lot of top key forwards at still very good at 30 and beyond (Dunstall, Lockett, Lynch, Hall)

And if the fans were given this choice they no doubt would vote for the flags now option and most footy club administrations would jump the same way. A short sighted lunge for flags at the expense of longer term success has historically always been the preferred option of administrations. Perhaps this explains why so few teams in AFL/VFL history have ever had long runs at the top, Melbourne in the 50's and the hawks in the 80's being the notable exceptions.

Perhaps by taking the top up route the club is also admitting that their recruits from 2008-9 aren't that flash either and can't be relied on to give the team a lift post 2012 when they should start to have some impact?

And before the short sighted start jumping up and down bleating that we took 2 underaged players in 08 so we could afford trade away our top picks in 09 bleat, bleat. Perhaps they should bear in mind that any team needs to recruit 4 to 5 young players every year because roughly half of them won't make the grade (depending on the picks used) and to keep the list turning over.

So in:

2004 we recruited 5 kids + Talyor
2005 we recruited 6 kids
2006 we recruited 5 kids
2007 we recruited 2 kids + Dew
2008 we recruited 5 kids
2009 we recruited 3 kids + Stratton, Hooper

Thus we are getting a bit light on for young kids coming through over the last three drafts and in the last two drafts 5 of our 8 kids have been picks 50 or above which makes them pretty speculative.

Of course some will argue that Lowden will be the greatest Hawthorn ruckman since Max Bailey and that may be the case but most of these kids are long shots (eg Grimely, Lisle, Savage, Williams, Duryea) and are in no way guaranteed to make it at AFL level let a lone produce the elite and A-grade players needed to win a flag.

Anyway the proof will be seen at the end of this year when we shall see whether or not the club continues to desperately top up or put some investment in some youth for the future.

Personally I think the club will continue down the top up and trading route and given our post-Pelchen drafting record that may not be a bad move. Chad Cornes anyone?

PS I don't know how good Gibson is and whether or not he was worth picks 25 and 41, but at least he is stilll only 26 and prior to tearing his hamstring badly was free from chronic injury and he helped Hawthorn get three players in the Top 10 AFL best looking players in the Herald Sun's fans survey. Unfortunately he is not a the key defender that we so desperately need.

 

[Slattery_20]

You guys have gone through a really compressed cycle of most clubs. Poxy & old in 2004, young & improving through til '06, a very brief run at the top, then destroyed by retirements & injuries in 09.

The weird thing being there is a very real chance (if played right) you can get that most important group of 8 or 10 (from the Buddy & Hodge drafts) through another mini-semi-rebuild & flag tilt. Burgoyne can really get you someway towards that, altho I'm not sure Gibson will be such a great pick-up.

 

[illnino]

altho I'm not sure Gibson will be such a great pick-up.

U should be. He will be.

 

[whiteTiga2k]

Truth of the matter is... WE needed experience with croad and campbell leaving to help us lead. Not to mention the loss of Crawf that we found VERY VERY hard to cover for... and ultimately failed miserably trying last season.

Burgoyne brings us up to a standard where we CAN threaten for the premiership, something that a KID would not be able to. Players like Cyril Rioli are a dime in a dozen and not many players come in and have a major effect straight away.

Our core leadership and superstar midfielders don't have 5-6 years to wait for a BUDDING pick 9 to hit his straps. HODGE MITCHELL BATEMAN SEWELL!!! THIS IS THEIR PREMIERSHIP WINDOW!!!!!! Burgoyne compliments them and adds to the chance of them getting MORE out of their unbelievable talent.

Melksham and Lucas... probably the two players that have impressed this season... would NOT be able to get us to threaten for the cup this year. Their experience is not high enough yet and they wouldn't know what to do when the going gets tough. Before you compare them to Cyril... only 1 other player i have seen in the last 5 yrs of drafting have had composure like his. And that is Joel Selwood.

Shaun has done absolutely NOTHING WRONG. HE has been happy to lead... from the moment he got to our club. From the moment he played his first game for us he has showed he is an asset! STOP BASHING HIM and give him a bloody fair go! I mean COME ON! we have won 8.5 games out of 11 with him in our team...

 

[Dragz]

But even if we had pick 9, the worst recruiter since greg miller (our own Pelchin) would have stuffed it up like he has for every pick except for Cyril...

My dad and some others are trying to get Pelchin sacked at the moment and he thinks that they might be successful. Fingers crossed.

Isn't he the List Manager? Not the guy who says "Yeah, we'll have player x"

I thought he was more likely to say "We need a player of type blah"

And the recruiters (Buckenara etc etc) provide that information and they all sit down and make a decision.

Which is all a bit off topic. I'm quite happy with Burgoyne, if we can get two top years from him after this year, it'll be great.

 

[The BIG X]

Good stuff TAITA

 

[reubski23]

Agree entirely.

What I find most disturbing about his play is that he is not quick and he can't kick much more than 40 metres (he certainly can't slot a goal from +40m). Also if we get 70 games out of him we will be very lucky.

What I find most disturbing about his recruitment is that the Pelchin- Clakson duumvirate still thinks the 2010 -2013 premiership window is still open in spite of it being severely compromised by:

(i) the poor recruiting of 2005-7 which from all of the high draft picks that we had has netted the club one potential elite player (Rioli), no potential A graders and a handful of stock standard AFL players (Ellis, Birchall, Renouf, possibly Whitecross) whilst the rest are either marginal (Muston, Bailey, Tuck) on the way out (Dowler, Morton, Moss) or already gorn (Thorp, Kennedy). That is a very very poor strike rate compared to talent taken under pick 30 in the last three drafts.

(ii) the unexpected and premature retirement, and loss of so many valuable front line players which have really hurt the club in the 2009 and 2010 seasons ie Croad, Dew, Boyle and Willaims (traded but crueled by injuries).

It is perfectly clear that the talent from all of these high drafts picks (ie 3, 6, 6, 12, 14, 18, 22, 24, 29, 33 and two famous father sons) was meant infuse the team with a quite a few A graders and provide some real depth to the team during the premiership years 2010-3. In 2010 these draftees would be 20-23 in 2010 entering their peak years, and in 2013 they would be 24-27 and at their peak at the end of the window.

Thus the club was in tough position at the end of the 09 season. Should it either:

(i) Top up to support a plan that was clearly broken and support the older players (Bateman, Guerra, Mitchell, Brown, Hodge, Sewell, Gilham) who will be largely gone by 2015, in quest for another flag over the next few years

or

(ii) should adopt a more conservative strategy and try and get some young talent in the last uncompromised draft to replace the natural loss of key players especially midfielders around 2013-5 and thereby give Roughead and Franklin some chance of flag success towards there latter years around 2014-18 remembering that a lot of top key forwards at still very good at 30 and beyond (Dunstall, Lockett, Lynch, Hall)

And if the fans were given this choice they no doubt would vote for the flags now option and most footy club administrations would jump the same way. A short sighted lunge for flags at the expense of longer term success has historically always been the preferred option of administrations. Perhaps this explains why so few teams in AFL/VFL history have ever had long runs at the top, Melbourne in the 50's and the hawks in the 80's being the notable exceptions.

Perhaps by taking the top up route the club is also admitting that their recruits from 2008-9 aren't that flash either and can't be relied on to give the team a lift post 2012 when they should start to have some impact?

And before the short sighted start jumping up and down bleating that we took 2 underaged players in 08 so we could afford trade away our top picks in 09 bleat, bleat. Perhaps they should bear in mind that any team needs to recruit 4 to 5 young players every year because roughly half of them won't make the grade (depending on the picks used) and to keep the list turning over.

So in:

2004 we recruited 5 kids + Talyor
2005 we recruited 6 kids
2006 we recruited 5 kids
2007 we recruited 2 kids + Dew
2008 we recruited 5 kids
2009 we recruited 3 kids + Stratton, Hooper

Thus we are getting a bit light on for young kids coming through over the last three drafts and in the last two drafts 5 of our 8 kids have been picks 50 or above which makes them pretty speculative.

Of course some will argue that Lowden will be the greatest Hawthorn ruckman since Max Bailey and that may be the case but most of these kids are long shots (eg Grimely, Lisle, Savage, Williams, Duryea) and are in no way guaranteed to make it at AFL level let a lone produce the elite and A-grade players needed to win a flag.

Anyway the proof will be seen at the end of this year when we shall see whether or not the club continues to desperately top up or put some investment in some youth for the future.

Personally I think the club will continue down the top up and trading route and given our post-Pelchen drafting record that may not be a bad move. Chad Cornes anyone?

PS I don't know how good Gibson is and whether or not he was worth picks 25 and 41, but at least he is stilll only 26 and prior to tearing his hamstring badly was free from chronic injury and he helped Hawthorn get three players in the Top 10 AFL best looking players in the Herald Sun's fans survey. Unfortunately he is not a the key defender that we so desperately need.

I understand what you are saying, but just because a person is not 17/18 when he is drafted doesn't mean he will not play the same number of games as a 17/18 game player. Stratton is what 20 years old? In many peoples eyes this kid is almost the favourite for the rising star. I still classify him as a kid and not as a top up pick.

Also i will say it again do not under estimate Xavier Ellis i just have this feeling about him, he is a lot smarter w/ the footy than a lot of other players - i think he is a potential super star

 

[Hawkamania!]

You should take a big breath before making such a rash statement.

Burgoyne is a great acquisition to the Hawks that will give us wonderful service for the next 5 years or so while the Premiership window is open

This.

Before the trade was done, I was reluctant of throwing my support behind Hawthorn going after Burgoyne preferring that we try and secure a ruckman or gorilla type defender to address what I saw as more crucial needs. No disrespect to Burgoyne as he does give us some much needed polish around the ground and will be an important cog in our machine for us in the next few years.

Another thing to consider is that we committed to getting Burgoyne well before the trade period. If we reneged on that, we may have damaged our standing in the future with other players who might want to jump ship and play for Hawthorn.

 

[Slattery_20]

Players like Cyril Rioli are a dime in a dozen

I do not think this means what you think it means.