Player Watch Nick Daicos - Can he be the GOAT?

[CCurnow3votes]

Has Goaty taken a contested mark yet or is he still on a career high of zero?

 

[Fadge]

It's the same algorithm that had a Ablett as the no.1 Ranked player for nearly a decade.

I've already mentioned this, the problem with Daicos this year has been his coach putting Nick in the middle, getting double teamed, and having to shank kicks out of congestion. Not really conducive to getting the best out of Nick. There has been a change recently but it probably cost you a finals spot.

And the same algorithm that had Bobby Hill as the 13th best player in the 2023 Grand Final, and Bachar Houli as the 20 something ranked player in the 2017 Grand Final.

In every game there are numerous WTF moments when looking at the CD rankings.

The algorithm is no better a data point than Supercoach or Dreamteam points.

 

[RUNVS]

And the same algorithm that had Bobby Hill as the 13th best player in the 2023 Grand Final, and Bachar Houli as the 20 something ranked player in the 2017 Grand Final.

In every game there are numerous WTF moments when looking at the CD rankings.

The algorithm is no better a data point than Supercoach or Dreamteam points.

I don't always agree with it but I like seeing Champion Data rankings as it makes me think of players that I may have otherwise overlooked, players who are actually overrated or underrated can show up in these rankings. I think it is better than supercoach or dreamteam points as those methods can be heavily influenced by players that simply go for stats (the Crouch brothers or Tom Mitchell for example), not to mention the players that get kick ins, but I think Champion Data remove those sort of things more in their rankings.

I do wish we all had access to their data though. I think we could have much more detailed discussions on players if we did, and we really should since Champion Data is owned by the AFL. The AFL should provide every stat to the fans they have, would make things so much more fun.

I for one think "disposals" is a terrible way of judging how good or bad a player is. For me a much better stat would be "effective metres gained" and while we would not have access to that stat, we know Champion Data collect the data necessary for that stat to exist.

 

[RCAB]

And the same algorithm that had Bobby Hill as the 13th best player in the 2023 Grand Final, and Bachar Houli as the 20 something ranked player in the 2017 Grand Final.

In every game there are numerous WTF moments when looking at the CD rankings.

The algorithm is no better a data point than Supercoach or Dreamteam points.

I had both Sheezel and Daicos on my all Australian team. According to Champion Data, Sheezel, got on the bench instead of Daicos, who's just missed out as the next mid.

The eye test for me this year says they were pretty close, I had Daicos rover and Sheezel on the bench. I didn't have Neale in, CD did.

Sheezel went at 70% kick efficiency while Daicos was at 58%. Daicos gained 493mt per game, where as Sheezel was 422. Daicos had nearly twice as many clangers per game at 4.8, vs 2.8 for Sheezel. So pretty close.

You can argue that you don't agree with it completely, but to completely dismiss it out of hand is ridiculous.

 

[Fadge]

I had both Sheezel and Daicos on my all Australian team. According to Champion Data, Sheezel, got on the bench instead of Daicos, who's just missed out as the next mid.

The eye test for me this year says they were pretty close, I had Daicos rover and Sheezel on the bench. I didn't have Neale in, CD did.

Sheezel went at 70% kick efficiency while Daicos was at 58%. Daicos gained 493mt per game, where as Sheezel was 422. Daicos had nearly twice as many clangers per game at 4.8, vs 2.8 for Sheezel. So pretty close.

You can argue that you don't agree with it completely, but to completely dismiss it out of hand is ridiculous.

How can you compare clangers and kicking efficiency when they played completely different roles?

Kicking efficiency for other Brownlow contenders:
Daicos 58.3%
Heeney 57.3%
Bont 57.1%
Cripps 54.1%
Serong 52.4%

 

[RCAB]

How can you compare clangers and kicking efficiency when they played completely different roles?

Do you just post for the sake of posting, did you even comprehend what I wrote? Do you even follow YOUR OWN discussions?

 

[Fadge]

Do you just post for the sake of posting, did you even comprehend what I wrote? Do you even follow YOUR OWN discussions?

Tell me more about the relative kicking efficiencies of inside mids who regularly get tagged compared to players who play other roles and don't get tagged.

 

[Madblue]

Do you just post for the sake of posting, did you even comprehend what I wrote? Do you even follow YOUR OWN discussions?

Dont waste your time RCAB....

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

If Nicky really is the best kick we've ever seen he should have no issue hitting targets deep in congestion. Sheezel is a more composed user around the ball, Nicky the better user off half back when he was out in space all game long.

 

[sr36]

I don't always agree with it but I like seeing Champion Data rankings as it makes me think of players that I may have otherwise overlooked, players who are actually overrated or underrated can show up in these rankings. I think it is better than supercoach or dreamteam points as those methods can be heavily influenced by players that simply go for stats (the Crouch brothers or Tom Mitchell for example), not to mention the players that get kick ins, but I think Champion Data remove those sort of things more in their rankings.

I do wish we all had access to their data though. I think we could have much more detailed discussions on players if we did, and we really should since Champion Data is owned by the AFL. The AFL should provide every stat to the fans they have, would make things so much more fun.

I for one think "disposals" is a terrible way of judging how good or bad a player is. For me a much better stat would be "effective metres gained" and while we would not have access to that stat, we know Champion Data collect the data necessary for that stat to exist.

The reality is that it's too difficult a game for them to accurately measure yet or even get close.

 

[Madblue]

The reality is that it's too difficult a game for them to accurately measure yet or even get close.

Luckily we have the Pies supporters on here to do that for us

 

[RUNVS]

The reality is that it's too difficult a game for them to accurately measure yet or even get close.

The problem is they have the stats already. We sometimes see David King and others using those stats, but they are stats we as the public do not have access to.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

The problem is they have the stats already. We sometimes see David King and others using those stats, but they are stats we as the public do not have access to.

It's ridiculous. A good friend of mine works there and even he says he doesn't get why they hold it from the public outside of Hoyne doing his weekly segments on SEN.

 

[RUNVS]

It's ridiculous. A good friend of mine works there and even he says he doesn't get why they hold it from the public outside of Hoyne doing his weekly segments on SEN.

Yes. Think how much more detailed and nuanced all the player discussions would be on threads like this and the AA thread if we had access to all those stats. We are currently debating with one arm and one leg tied behind our backs and I think the more detailed stats would be super interesting and would only promote more engagement.

 

[sr36]

It's ridiculous. A good friend of mine works there and even he says he doesn't get why they hold it from the public outside of Hoyne doing his weekly segments on SEN.

They sell it to the clubs. Prefer that business model than publically accessible info relying on clicks and advertising revenue as it's pretty niche data that requires explanation so they'd essentially have to become a media outlet to monetize it

 

[sr36]

The problem is they have the stats already. We sometimes see David King and others using those stats, but they are stats we as the public do not have access to.

They have a more sophisticated set of data points (categorised events that occur within a game) but it still needs to be analysed and interpreted to say something meaningful about effectiveness and contribution towards scoring and defending. It seems pretty clear that they're a long way from that.

 

[sr36]

Luckily we have the Pies supporters on here to do that for us

I reckon our "I reckon he's great" comments are matched by Blue fans saying "I reckon he's an overrated squib."

The main difference is that our reckonings are the ones in line with the rest of the footy world and you guys are a bit weird.

 

[Madblue]

I reckon our "I reckon he's great" comments are matched by Blue fans saying "I reckon he's an overrated squib."

The main difference is that our reckonings are the ones in line with the rest of the footy world and you guys are a bit weird.

I dont think he is an overrated squib.

He is a great offensive talent who needs to get alot better defensively and physically

 

[Fadge]

I dont think he is an overrated squib.

He is a great offensive talent who needs to get alot better defensively and physically

So you're saying he's got upside in him when he's already one of the best 2 or 3 players in the game after only 3 years in the system?

That's quite frightening...

 

[RUNVS]

So you're saying he's got upside in him when he's already one of the best 2 or 3 players in the game after only 3 years in the system?

That's quite frightening...

I can easily entertain an argument for top 15 in the game, but not top 2 or 3 yet.

 

[sr36]

I dont think he is an overrated squib.

He is a great offensive talent who needs to get alot better defensively and physically

Don't mind that. Some of the other mad blues are madder than madblue.

Although, I think you're wrong defensively. His defensive running is pretty good - does need to get stronger to stick more of his tackles though. And in a GOAT discussion, defence is one area that Nick will have those in the GOAT discussion covered. The nature of the modern game means that his defensive work rate is higher than Gaz Sr, Matthews, Gaz Jr, Carey, Diesel - whoever else you want to put in there.

 

[Madblue]

So you're saying he's got upside in him when he's already one of the best 2 or 3 players in the game after only 3 years in the system?

That's quite frightening...

Yes

 

[Fadge]

I can easily entertain an argument for top 15 in the game, but not top 2 or 3 yet.

2023 (despite missing the last 3 games due to injury):
Coaches MVP - 2nd
Brownlow - 3rd
AFLPA MVP - 3rd

2024:
Coaches MVP - 1st
Brownlow - ???
AFLPA MVP - ???

I'd love to see the 14 players you have ahead of him...

 

[Worm4]

2023 (despite missing the last 3 games due to injury):
Coaches MVP - 2nd
Brownlow - 3rd
AFLPA MVP - 3rd

2024:
Coaches MVP - 1st
Brownlow - ???
AFLPA MVP - ???

I'd love to see the 14 players you have ahead of him...

Just looking at his post, he didn't say there were 14 players in front of Daicos did he ? He said 2 or 3.
Comprehension - is important

 

[RUNVS]

2023 (despite missing the last 3 games due to injury):
Coaches MVP - 2nd
Brownlow - 3rd
AFLPA MVP - 3rd

2024:
Coaches MVP - 1st
Brownlow - ???
AFLPA MVP - ???

I'd love to see the 14 players you have ahead of him...

Currently rather busy but off the top of my head Gawn, Pettraca, Curnow. Hogan, Heeney are all better right now, with a host of players who are about at an equal level.