Paris 2024 Olympics

[arrowman]

I'm thinking no impact on archery, shooting, equestrian...

Archery - upper body strength. Shooting - not sure (I think there's an argument that women actually have an advantage). Equestrian - no, which is why AFAIK it is largely not separated by sex (even for the horses LOL).

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Yes but if you recall, they didn’t look like women (muscles that women normally don’t have) just as those Chinese swimmers back in 1994 or thereabouts.

The early drugs takers were largely on testosterone to start with, and then later anabolic steroids. They weren't tested for at the time. There must have been some body mass increase.

 

[Mutineer]

Well, there are some poor takes in this thread, so because I've got the time I'll go through them...

First off, let's see what we do and don't know.

Imane Khelif (and Lin Yu-Ting) were disqualified from the women's category by the International Boxing Association based on "gender testing" (i.e. sex testing). I have the IBA's latest statement but for some reason I can't upload it here.

The IBA does not specify the nature of the testing, although IIRC they have previously said it was not testosterone levels. It seems likely it was a chromosome test.

We do not know the actual status of these two people. Are they "100%" male (XY with no disorder of sex development (DSD)), or do they have a DSD of some kind? It seems likely they have a DSD. We do not know exactly which DSD this would be (there are many) or what is the appearance of their secondary sex characteristics (including genitals) although it seems likely that in Khelif's case, at least, it may be that their genitalia are ambiguous because apparently they were raised as a female.

What we do know is - the IBA tested them and found they were male. The IOC has conducted no such tests and is relying solely on self-identification (including, laughably, what their passport says).

So there is some speculation, and a lot of "extremely likely" involved.


You do not know this. Also, males with a DSD will often present with the appearance of female external genitals, but they don't have a vagina as such.

"Lived as" is not the same as "is".

No-one is saying they are transgender. Transgender and DSD are different things.

More or less, yes. A male with a DSD may have some apparently female characteristics (genitalia more than the other things).


No.

Um, males being allowed to compete in the female category.

No "males with a DSD", or "males with low testosterone", or "males with external genitalia that appear female", or "males who think they are female". Just, males.

No, it's not their fault. And I'm sure it would be distressing to be raised as a female, told you are female, and then when push comes to shove finding out that you're actually male and not eligible for the female category. But life isn't fair sometimes, and sporting bodies aren't obliged to change or corrupt their rules to protect people's feelings.

No, because they are competing against other males. And it's not "culture warriors", it's people - women in particular - who want to preserve women's sport for women.

Human biology, and the way our sexed bodies develop, is complicated. But there are only two sexes.

Wow, nice victim blame. She was, in her own words, hit harder than she had ever been in her life, and she feared for her safety. And she hasn't, as far as I know, made it about her opponent being a man.

It's not "picking on one woman" and it's not about trans people. It's about the difference between male and female in the sporting arena.

Some people have physical advantages. As long as they compete within the appropriate sex category, that's all that can be done.

Women sometimes beat men when they are matched up in a sporting contest. The fact that a mediocre man can be beaten by an exceptional woman doesn't mean it's OK to just open up the sex category.

I mean - why do you think we have sex categories in sport, in the first place?

Rational people are criticising a system that allows males to compete in the female category. It has nothing to do with the "appearance" of the person in question.

Compete in the category they qualify for. Like everyone else. It's not the responsibility of the rest of the sporting community to change the rules to protect the feelings of some individuals.

Any advantage in pole vaulting?

Svetlans Gevenskaia?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Why doesn't the USA always win the shooting?

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Why doesn't the USA always win the shooting?

I suppose its single shot, Yanks like AR-15's.

 

[TubbsFarquhar]

Saya Sakikabara is a gold chance. Would love nothing more than to see her win after what happened in Tokyo.

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Saya Sakikabara is a gold chance. Would love nothing more than to see her win after what happened in Tokyo.

just looked. Qualified No1 but not much in it. Definitely a medal chance. A second Aussie girl there also qualified in top 10.

 

[MarcusP2]

TERFs have lost the plot so much they are literally ripping down a woman because she doesn't confirm to western notions of femininity

born with a vagina
bought up as a girl
no transition at any point

comes from Algeria of all places who would be nothing but hostile to trans folk

what else is she supposed to do?

plus, she has lost to 9 other women before ? so.. what does that say?

She competed in the last Olympics and lost in the quarterfinals.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Human biology, and the way our sexed bodies develop, is complicated. But there are only two sexes.

What makes you think you can win this argument with biological facts?

 

[Slippery Pete]

Is having XY chromosomes an advantage in boxing?

What sort of a question is that?

 

[Mostyn]

The East Germans tried turning women into men. Raelene Boyle says hello

Massive experimental steroid abuse should be banned, yes.

This woman has a higher than standard testosterone level, and some potential chromosomal variation. Not sure that's the same.

 

[Eagleboy2011]

What sort of a question is that?

DRBM is not a Biologist or a SCOTUS judge.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Do we really have to ruin this thread with a rehash of the gender debate...

Let's stick to the Olympics.

 

[MarcusP2]

Here were the pre-Olympics gold medal predictions from Gracenote

Probably going to underperform that.

BMX and 2 swimming golds already missed, 7 rowing medals predicted and already missed a few. Missed one in the skateboarding thus far, rugby sevens.

 

[Eagleboy2011]

I hate seeing that NZ flag in the schedule list and think at a glance its Aussie. We need to usurp the NZ team like England has with the GB team and get more medals. ANZAC

 

[El Doederino]

Archery - upper body strength. Shooting - not sure (I think there's an argument that women actually have an advantage). Equestrian - no, which is why AFAIK it is largely not separated by sex (even for the horses LOL).

You would think should be no advantage with darts either, except men can hold their drink better

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Probably going to underperform that.

BMX and 2 swimming golds already missed, 7 rowing medals predicted and already missed a few. Missed one in the skateboarding thus far, rugby sevens.

I think we are performing very well atm. We had 17 GM's in Tokyo so a way to go.

 

[Mostyn]

Well, there are some poor takes in this thread, so because I've got the time I'll go through them...

First off, let's see what we do and don't know.

Imane Khelif (and Lin Yu-Ting) were disqualified from the women's category by the International Boxing Association based on "gender testing" (i.e. sex testing). I have the IBA's latest statement but for some reason I can't upload it here.

The IBA does not specify the nature of the testing, although IIRC they have previously said it was not testosterone levels. It seems likely it was a chromosome test.

We do not know the actual status of these two people. Are they "100%" male (XY with no disorder of sex development (DSD)), or do they have a DSD of some kind? It seems likely they have a DSD. We do not know exactly which DSD this would be (there are many) or what is the appearance of their secondary sex characteristics (including genitals) although it seems likely that in Khelif's case, at least, it may be that their genitalia are ambiguous because apparently they were raised as a female.

What we do know is - the IBA tested them and found they were male. The IOC has conducted no such tests and is relying solely on self-identification (including, laughably, what their passport says).

So there is some speculation, and a lot of "extremely likely" involved.


You do not know this. Also, males with a DSD will often present with the appearance of female external genitals, but they don't have a vagina as such.

"Lived as" is not the same as "is".

No-one is saying they are transgender. Transgender and DSD are different things.

More or less, yes. A male with a DSD may have some apparently female characteristics (genitalia more than the other things).


No.

Um, males being allowed to compete in the female category.

No "males with a DSD", or "males with low testosterone", or "males with external genitalia that appear female", or "males who think they are female". Just, males.

No, it's not their fault. And I'm sure it would be distressing to be raised as a female, told you are female, and then when push comes to shove finding out that you're actually male and not eligible for the female category. But life isn't fair sometimes, and sporting bodies aren't obliged to change or corrupt their rules to protect people's feelings.

No, because they are competing against other males. And it's not "culture warriors", it's people - women in particular - who want to preserve women's sport for women.

Human biology, and the way our sexed bodies develop, is complicated. But there are only two sexes.

Wow, nice victim blame. She was, in her own words, hit harder than she had ever been in her life, and she feared for her safety. And she hasn't, as far as I know, made it about her opponent being a man.

It's not "picking on one woman" and it's not about trans people. It's about the difference between male and female in the sporting arena.

Some people have physical advantages. As long as they compete within the appropriate sex category, that's all that can be done.

Women sometimes beat men when they are matched up in a sporting contest. The fact that a mediocre man can be beaten by an exceptional woman doesn't mean it's OK to just open up the sex category.

I mean - why do you think we have sex categories in sport, in the first place?

Rational people are criticising a system that allows males to compete in the female category. It has nothing to do with the "appearance" of the person in question.

Compete in the category they qualify for. Like everyone else. It's not the responsibility of the rest of the sporting community to change the rules to protect the feelings of some individuals.

You've based this entire post on an assumption that she is a man with misassigned gender - the only thing you've got to support that was the previous ruling of the IBA, who have been kicked out of the Olympics due to corruption.

IOC banishes boxing governing body from Olympics, but the sport will still be at the Paris Games

The International Boxing Association has been banished from the Olympic family but the sport will stay on the program for the 2024 Paris Games.

apnews.com

The Russian-led IBA disqualified her just before she was to fight in the final against a Russian fighter, and the Olympics statement referred to the IBA minutes that state they have no existing process for gender testing.

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

Everything I've read is that she is biologically a woman. She hadn't failed previous tests and all reasons why she failed seem veiled in secrecy.

 

[FR0GGY]

Why doesn't the USA always win the shooting?

Fake targets

 

[FR0GGY]

Do we really have to ruin this thread with a rehash of the gender debate...

Let's stick to the Olympics.

As long as it stays on the athletes in the Olympics I don’t see an issue?
Can’t have an Olympics discussion without discussing things in the Olympics.

 

[radiojake]

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Growing to like the 3X3 basketball especially as the Aussie girls are winning.

 

[FR0GGY]

Growing to like the 3X3 basketball especially as the Aussie girls are winning.

I’m assuming they are specialist 3x3 players?

 

[Eagleboy2011]

I’m assuming they are specialist 3x3 players?

Just looked it up. We have a 3x3 league in Adelaide and a team in the National comp.

​

 

[Mutineer]

Do we really have to ruin this thread with a rehash of the gender debate...

Let's stick to the Olympics.