Primus - how is the gloss looking

[Waspy79]

Re: Port v Collingwood Gameday Thread

I believe, and I am sadly serious about this, that we will probably lose by more next week to the Hawks.

I know it's not cool to quote yourself, especially in these circumstances, but todays result and margin did not come as a surprise to me, yet I still don't blame Primus. Is my faith blind?

 

[PatientMental]

Re: Port v Collingwood Gameday Thread

I think you only still have faith because a team is only as strong as it's weakest link (the assistant "coaches") and you're able to reserve judgement after Primus is equipped with a less terrible panel - Bailey and Walsh are an absolute must.

 

[Pedro59]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

imagine Gray, Boak,Pierce,Chap,Dom,Hartlett,Scultz ,Westhoff all playing at a higher consistency of good games...like 90% of their games are good like a Scarlett or Fletcher (or Wanganeen) consistency

is our training and coaching holding these guys back or improving them...I mean they are all still young and should be able to get futher improvement

and these young players that we are playing a..re we improving them on the fiel?d..I fear our zoning /gameplan tactics are too complicated and stopping all our players developing and playing their natural game

 

[Forzaport]

Re: Port v Collingwood Gameday Thread

I don't think it's a matter of faith, just common sense.

 

[Francis Soyer]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

pedro before you start questioning the coaches game plan why dont you question the players work ethic or lack of it. They stroll around like arrogant bludgers. Pearce and westhoff are just two examples but have a heap of friends. We refuse to work as hard as the opposition and that is the first point to address before you start talking game plans. Players attitudes stink and they need to have more respect for the club and themselves.

 

[The Smaller Warrior]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Trust me when I say this.

The players, are incredibly confused and are not certain of what the game plan is, or what is required from them.

That is fact.

Perhaps they aren't trying hard enough aswell, but there are more issues at hand than just the players work ethic.

 

[PJ Power]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Trust me when I say this.

The players, are incredibly confused and are not certain of what the game plan is, or what is required from them.

That is fact.

Perhaps they aren't trying hard enough aswell, but there are more issues at hand than just the players work ethic.

Exactimondo.

Primus and co. created a ridiculous environment of uncertainty and lack of confidence especially amongst the senior players that they had chosen to keep on the list at the end of last year. The problems started in rd1 and have never left us. Our backline got mucked around enormously to squeeze both Pittard and O'Shea into that rd 1 side. The midfield has never recovered from having the confidence sapped from Pearce, Salopek and to a lesser extent Kornes, while having to carry an extremely underwhelming Broadbent for the entire year. Broadbent gets game after game of sub-mediocrity without a skerrick of improvement when others are moved around like yo-yos or kept in the "magoos" despite better form.

Defensive match-ups have been a joke all year. Seriously Pearce on Rioli. Mitchell without a tag. Trengove, then Chaplin, then Carlile, then Salter on Buddy. As Ginever pointed out, the most alarming thing about Primus' coaching is that he doesn't seem to have an instinct for creating good match-ups or for changing the plan mid-course in a match. When the press-up zone (f**k we've botched that this year) doesn't work, surely a bit of man-on-man is in order.

Primus has created a very confusing and confused environment around him. He seems as befuddled as the players. He has no tricks, no ways of stemming the avalanche against us, no natural feel for the course of matches. I just can't believe that in that coaching box, there isn't one person with enough football nous to provide some strong alternatives. There should be some capacity that the coach has to at least keep losing margins below 100 points. He's got nothing.

 

[couchy555]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Normally im in agreement that a coach should get at least two years, but wow this looks like a group desperately in need of fresh ideas. Its stunning what has happened to your club, and the compromised / shitty upcoming draft... yikes

 

[Natman]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Exactimondo.

Primus and co. created a ridiculous environment of uncertainty and lack of confidence especially amongst the senior players that they had chosen to keep on the list at the end of last year. The problems started in rd1 and have never left us. Our backline got mucked around enormously to squeeze both Pittard and O'Shea into that rd 1 side. The midfield has never recovered from having the confidence sapped from Pearce, Salopek and to a lesser extent Kornes, while having to carry an extremely underwhelming Broadbent for the entire year. Broadbent gets game after game of sub-mediocrity without a skerrick of improvement when others are moved around like yo-yos or kept in the "magoos" despite better form.

Defensive match-ups have been a joke all year. Seriously Pearce on Rioli. Mitchell without a tag. Trengove, then Chaplin, then Carlile, then Salter on Buddy. As Ginever pointed out, the most alarming thing about Primus' coaching is that he doesn't seem to have an instinct for creating good match-ups or for changing the plan mid-course in a match. When the press-up zone (f**k we've botched that this year) doesn't work, surely a bit of man-on-man is in order.

Primus has created a very confusing and confused environment around him. He seems as befuddled as the players. He has no tricks, no ways of stemming the avalanche against us, no natural feel for the course of matches. I just can't believe that in that coaching box, there isn't one person with enough football nous to provide some strong alternatives. There should be some capacity that the coach has to at least keep losing margins below 100 points. He's got nothing.

It's obvious that Primus is struggling in his role as well as the players 'performing' even just the basics - that can't be all Primus's fault.

Some of the tactical issues you raised are correct, but wouldn't a lot of these ideas and plans be provided by the assistant coaches - oh, thats right, we either don't have them or they are useless.

I will judge Primus at the end of next season providing he gets a support staff of 6 full time coaches of reasonable standard.

 

[tealpower]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

It's obvious that Primus is struggling in his role as well as the players 'performing' even just the basics - that can't be all Primus's fault.

Some of the tactical issues you raised are correct, but wouldn't a lot of these ideas and plans be provided by the assistant coaches - oh, thats right, we either don't have them or they are useless.

I will judge Primus at the end of next season providing he gets a support staff of 6 full time coaches of reasonable standard.

As Primus has repeatedly stated publicly Natman the buck stops with him. That means he's in charge. Primus has had over a season at the helm of Port Adelaide now across both caretaker and head coach platforms. We can make some conclusions about his performance to date.

I haven't got anything positive to say about his performance and continuing the negativity surrounding his abysmal head coaching performance isn't going to achieve much, so I'm waiting out the next few years at the end of a very short tether.

 

[TonyBecht]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Trust me when I say this.

The players, are incredibly confused and are not certain of what the game plan is, or what is required from them.

That is fact.

Perhaps they aren't trying hard enough aswell, but there are more issues at hand than just the players work ethic.

Couple of comments if I may. It would appear you and I receive similar information.

Having the pleasure of being seated in the stands with an instruction to watch for certain things, perhaps the following may be of interest.

Hocking has a lot going on with younger players and on game day- its well received.
Laidley is non existant but a brilliant tactician- however it does not help on game day because Primus doggedly sticks with a rigid game plan that we are not up to.

However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt that it is the players not able to execute it. This is a MASSIVE risk that it is him not the gameplan.

In the 3rd Q break there was a lot of discussion on gameplan and strategy (I too hate the word structures) and how to move the ball to whom. Unfortunately, the 6 players we had line up at the Def50 included Jacobs- wrong position, Salter, wrong position arguably not up to it anyway, Trengove, wrong position arguably all blonde hype, and Broadbent, possibly right position definately a question mark over him. So Primus did try something new.

Now he had Chaplin and Carlisle there. I remarked to my Hawthorn sitters that we would have 10 scored on us and for inaccurate kicking (I twas pleasant to remark to all in the vicinity that the Hawks were choking on scoring their 30th goal- and that up to that point we had only missed one shot whereas they had missed 10- small consolation).

This would suggest not that Primus is tanking but that he has lost care about scores, which is apparent anyway

Points of interest- after the game not a single player coach or official had the integrity to approach him- Primus is a very lonely man out there- dead man walking or all embarrassed- take your pick. This was one lonely man standing or hiding behind his players during the post-match presentation...again take your pick.

Half time the only voice was Chaplin- he called the players in for a huddle on the oval to address them and then told them they had to jog off.
Half time exist 3 kids had their hands down for a slap- they got 3- all soft tho.

3/4 time before the bounce they got into the arms hold huddle and Carlisle spoke. Not aware if Dom said anything at 1/2 or 3/4 time
End of game the kids had their hands down for a slap in the narrow race- only Rodan touched a kids hand. At least the kids are still there.

Sad to see only 1 PAFC supporter in the entire Southern stand and a couple in the new stand- apart from a few colourful behind the goals where have they gone??

We're not as bad as the scoreline- see next post on a few decisions that have been made- its the run and spread that kills us- we just can't match these teams, and the Zone- please, can more people make comment on this?

He got into them about it at 3/4 time and if you were able to see it we looked like a Soccer team playing an offiside trap and to be fair it was very tight.

But its the overlap which kills us. Surjan comes off his man to pressure the incoming player, leaving his man free and so on. Does anyone have any comments on this. It is very important to the discussion of whether fitter players will make his gameplan work. Would we have been better to keep Mark Williams and give him new players for his gameplan?

I am not a huge fan of Primus, but after hearing what I've heard post match- I think he needs that year to show if he has what he says he has- provided he does what he says he is going to do.

The question remains about his intra-game adaptability, which at this stage appears lacking, and player positioning decisions.

 

[Wargreymon90]

I'm not passing judgement on primus until he has a full team of competent assistants around him.

 

[TonyBecht]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

As Primus has repeatedly stated publicly Natman the buck stops with him. That means he's in charge. Primus has had over a season at the helm of Port Adelaide now across both caretaker and head coach platforms. We can make some conclusions about his performance to date.

I haven't got anything positive to say about his performance and continuing the negativity surrounding his abysmal head coaching performance isn't going to achieve much, so I'm waiting out the next few years at the end of a very short tether.

[FONT=&quot]>Outcomes- MP has put the line through a few more players[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>MP has now acknowledged he will be doing something about it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>MP will trade and delist hard, club can throw money at some good players (admittedly we will struggle to get a star)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>CF is gone anyway. Emphasis will be on weights and fitness (because he is adamant his zoning press works- jury out)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Some good players with bad attitude are out the door (bad or not acceptable to him?)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Younger players are staying (Butcher’s performance give latitude to Westhoff which trickles over to our Ruck decisions and recruiting- massive plus for us seeing him make it through the game like that)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Assistant coach reshuffle[/FONT]

 

[Waspy79]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

As Primus has repeatedly stated publicly Natman the buck stops with him. That means he's in charge. Primus has had over a season at the helm of Port Adelaide now across both caretaker and head coach platforms. We can make some conclusions about his performance to date.

I haven't got anything positive to say about his performance and continuing the negativity surrounding his abysmal head coaching performance isn't going to achieve much, so I'm waiting out the next few years at the end of a very short tether.

Sacking him would only achieve anything if we were capable of landing someone better. We cannot attract a Matthews or Roos who would be the only two I would put my house on being able to turn things around. We need to stick with Primus through one more off-season and give him 16 games next year with new assistants to reassess the situation. If he is no good then, sure, sack the poor fella. I do agree it is impossible to defend the results of recent weeks, coaches are also to blame no doubt.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Thanks for those insights TonyBecht. New and informed thoughts are always welcome.

You asked for comment on the zone ... we are terrible at it. My initial reaction is we should abandon it for a one on one attack. But I remember Tony Shaw saying it takes a couple of seasons for a core group to be playing together to master it. Until then it is inevitable that teams will break it down and score against it.

We are at the outset of that journey so it looks like we will have to stick at it with the group we have until it becomes second nature - and maybe like the good teams we will morph it into a combination of zone and group attack on the ball carrier - hunting in packs. At the moment it is just a mechanism for lazy or tired players to abrogate responsibility to the next line of defence once the wave breaks through.

At least Primus has acknowledged the need to get fitter and stronger so we might see more vigorous attack on the body and tackles that stick.

I still think the blowouts are inevitable now because the players have mentally thrown the towel in (apart from the new fresh ones who stood out yesterday) and believe the club no longer cares about winning games this year.

Unfortunately some players are destroying what reputation they have in the process.

It's a pipe dream I know but an established - even ageing - star player could make a huge difference to what we produce out there. A genuine on field leader that the players look up to and who will pick the team up when it is struggling.

 

[tealpower]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

[FONT=&quot]>Outcomes- MP has put the line through a few more players[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>MP has now acknowledged he will be doing something about it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>MP will trade and delist hard, club can throw money at some good players (admittedly we will struggle to get a star)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>CF is gone anyway. Emphasis will be on weights and fitness (because he is adamant his zoning press works- jury out)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Some good players with bad attitude are out the door (bad or not acceptable to him?)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Younger players are staying (Butcher’s performance give latitude to Westhoff which trickles over to our Ruck decisions and recruiting- massive plus for us seeing him make it through the game like that)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Assistant coach reshuffle[/FONT]

I agree with most of what you've forwarded TonyBecht. Most astute Port Adelaide followers suggested these measures at the end of season 2010. As I've made mention before, I've been a passive contributor to the board critiquing the comments of others. This season, especially the second half of 2011 I've found myself contributing more and more concerned with the plight the club has created for itself (SANFL administered of course) both on and off the field.

Sacking him would only achieve anything if we were capable of landing someone better. We cannot attract a Matthews or Roos who would be the only two I would put my house on being able to turn things around. We need to stick with Primus through one more off-season and give him 16 games next year with new assistants to reassess the situation. If he is no good then, sure, sack the poor fella. I do agree it is impossible to defend the results of recent weeks, coaches are also to blame no doubt.

I agree that sacking him probably won't achieve anything but neither does making a claim that he'll be assessed after he's had better tools put around him. You can make an assessment on his performance now and a performance assessment can be made at the end of 2013. Making a claim that the right to assessment is being deferred is indicative of Port Adelaide's plight, defer the problem in favour of tomorrow's hope.

 

[Waspy79]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

I agree that sacking him probably won't achieve anything but neither does making a claim that he'll be assessed after he's had better tools put around him. You can make an assessment on his performance now and a performance assessment can be made at the end of 2013. Making a claim that the right to assessment is being deferred is indicative of Port Adelaide's plight, defer the problem in favour of tomorrow's hope.

And likewise I agree with you, but its about all we can do. The club cannot afford to sack Primus now. In an ideal world the club would be in a position where it could sack Primus now and seek out a Mourinho or Hiddink, but this isn't the EPL, and we are broke.

 

[Trewth]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

[FONT=&quot]>Outcomes- MP has put the line through a few more players[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>MP has now acknowledged he will be doing something about it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>MP will trade and delist hard, club can throw money at some good players (admittedly we will struggle to get a star)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>CF is gone anyway. Emphasis will be on weights and fitness (because he is adamant his zoning press works- jury out)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Some good players with bad attitude are out the door (bad or not acceptable to him?)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Younger players are staying (Butcher’s performance give latitude to Westhoff which trickles over to our Ruck decisions and recruiting- massive plus for us seeing him make it through the game like that)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>Assistant coach reshuffle[/FONT]

These are all things I thought (or hoped) would happen at the end of the season, and the reason why we should wait til next year to properly judge his performance.

Calling for MP to be sacked is a massive knee jerk reaction, and also an impossibility given contracts, paying out choco etc.

 

[Natman]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Thanks for those insights TonyBecht. New and informed thoughts are always welcome.

You asked for comment on the zone ... we are terrible at it. My initial reaction is we should abandon it for a one on one attack. But I remember Tony Shaw saying it takes a couple of seasons for a core group to be playing together to master it. Until then it is inevitable that teams will break it down and score against it.

We are at the outset of that journey so it looks like we will have to stick at it with the group we have until it becomes second nature - and maybe like the good teams we will morph it into a combination of zone and group attack on the ball carrier - hunting in packs. At the moment it is just a mechanism for lazy or tired players to abrogate responsibility to the next line of defence once the wave breaks through.

At least Primus has acknowledged the need to get fitter and stronger so we might see more vigorous attack on the body and tackles that stick.

I still think the blowouts are inevitable now because the players have mentally thrown the towel in (apart from the new fresh ones who stood out yesterday) and believe the club no longer cares about winning games this year.

Unfortunately some players are destroying what reputation they have in the process.

It's a pipe dream I know but an established - even ageing - star player could make a huge difference to what we produce out there. A genuine on field leader that the players look up to and who will pick the team up when it is struggling.

Are you channeling me Ford? My thoughts prezactly.

People forget that Primus must stand by the basis of his presentation that got him the job - that is what I think he is doing and it takes time and he has little to no quality to support him. It's almost like he is a lone player and against the other quality coaching groups and with a dispirited team (mainly the 'seniors') with no aims or confidence, the results are inevitable.

It's also clear that a lot of the so-called 'senior' group are not up to what he wants. If they need re-training then that is where the help in the form of a Bailey, Walsh and whoever is paramount.

 

[bomberclifford]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

... an established - even ageing - star player could make a huge difference to what we produce out there. A genuine on field leader that the players look up to and who will pick the team up when it is struggling.

Perfect description of the Chadmeister.

 

[Portia]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

You asked for comment on the zone ... we are terrible at it. My initial reaction is we should abandon it for a one on one attack. But I remember Tony Shaw saying it takes a couple of seasons for a core group to be playing together to master it. Until then it is inevitable that teams will break it down and score against it.

The main thing about zoning is that, even if you understand it, it requires a minimum speed/intensity of its participants.

A zone that is put together based on incoming opponents travelling at one speed, and defenders linking up to pressure them at another, has little tolerance for one of those defenders doing a half-arsed jog from being out of position in the first place.

-------

Second thought: there are three players that we'd mostly reckon are pretty promising right nowl.

Butcher, O'Shea, Jonas. All are hard working and not stupid. The other thing they have in common is that none of them have been part of a Choco-coached team.

Perhaps the reason for the complete disconnect between Primus and a number of older (supposedly `senior') players is simple culture shock. We as fans may well be getting exactly what we wanted - a different way of doing things to Choco's methods, but where we still need to piss off our McGuinness/McDermott equivalents to get there.

 

[Natman]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

The main thing about zoning is that, even if you understand it, it requires a minimum speed/intensity of its participants.

A zone that is put together based on incoming opponents travelling at one speed, and defenders linking up to pressure them at another, has little tolerance for one of those defenders doing a half-arsed jog from being out of position in the first place.

-------

Second thought: there are three players that we'd mostly reckon are pretty promising right nowl.

Butcher, O'Shea, Jonas. All are hard working and not stupid. The other thing they have in common is that none of them have been part of a Choco-coached team.

Perhaps the reason for the complete disconnect between Primus and a number of older (supposedly `senior') players is simple culture shock. We as fans may well be getting exactly what we wanted - a different way of doing things to Choco's methods, but where we still need to piss off our McGuinness/McDermott equivalents to get there.

Yep - either show a modicum of some desire for the rest of the season and put up your hand to put in the effort in the pre-season to learn, train and change or 1) if contracted, play SNAFL, or 2) if contracted and are wanted then be traded, or 3) if not contracted then be delisted.

It's a pretty simple process really.

 

[Portmanteau]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Certainly the thing with the zone is, and this has been discussed before, that those could not give a shit about making it to a contest will make the zone completely unworkable. And we have those players in spades.

The whole idea of the zone is to trick the opponent into making kicks that they think they otherwise could, and then race to the player to spoil/intercept. See Cyril picking off Salter's kick to Jonas yesterday for perfect example.

We would let that kind of kick go with relative ease.

 

[PatientMental]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Has Primus recruited bad since got the job? There seems to be a lot of positivity from his recruiting so far.

Used:
Jonas (Rookie - absolute steal),
Irons (Rookie - He's got something special),
Jacobs (GF - getting there slowly)
O'shea (Excited to see him with a PS under his belt)

Unknown:
Newton
Hay
Young
Curnow

Cut:
Thompson
Dawson
Nash
Harding
Westhoff (Demoted)
(Others?)

 

[Portia]

Re: Primus - is the gloss wearing off already

Actually as far as recruiting, we've established already that we're not meeting the needs we have for players properly - the 2010 offseason saw us bring in pretty much pure flankers, which doesn't address our key issues.

But in judging if Primus has something going for him as a coach, not a recruiter, it is not the type of player that matters for these circumstances, more that the newest guys are playing differently to the ingrained Choco students.