Autopsy Round 11, 2023: St.Kilda v Hawthorn

[SteeleSaints]

Clearance stats can be misleading. First touch doesn't always = a burst forward out of a clearance.
We sometimes get first touch, cough it up all within 10 metres of a Centre bounce

Its about being able to deliver the ball running at your goals 'shoulders squared to the target'. How many clearances do our midfielders win on the burst running squarely at their target. Perhaps 1 or 2 per game if we are lucky. The remainder are absolute rubbish skyed around the corner or scrubber kicks. The opposition set up and take possession in any event.

I believe if we could find a stat of centre clearances that lead to goals we would be in the bottom half of the competition. F50 stoppage clearance scores we are ok at, but poor again in opposition scores from stoppages particularly in the past 4 weeks.

It all starts and finishes with what happens in the midfield and stoppages. Those players are so critical to team outcomes in the modern era. Team structure gets you so far but if you cant win the ball at the coal face and transition away from stoppages you struggle. Because our midfield has been so poor we have been relying on taking defensive intercept marks and when that doesnt occur we struggle big time.

I dont know what the stats are but we would have say 30 centre bounces a game and possibly 80-90 around the ground stoppages. Thats 120 occasions when we have the opportunity to win possession of the footy. Obviously there are other marking contests etc which as a group we are good at. But if we cant win our share of those 120 stoppages we will continue to struggle. Something has to change if the club are serious about playing finals and quickly.

 

[EddieMurphy]

Funny we won the centre clearances and the overall clearances.

That was so odd to see in the stats after the game, must have happened in 3rd and mainly the 4th quarters (where also they outscored us by the biggest margin) because we were totally smashed in the first half.

 

[StPiper]

Picking and choosing has been an issue for this group for so many years. It's exhausting hearing them trot out the same lines all the time. You're a professional footballer, act like one?

Can't even totally blame the players given the environment they've been in. We have no clue what standards or winning looks like unfortunately.

You’re right, and I don’t think that can be driven out of a list in the space of a couple of months of footy.

We just have to hope (what else do we have?) that a high performance environment is now in place/being put in place that over time weeds out those that have been the prime culprits of picking and choosing, and doesn’t let it seep into our younger crop who are amongst the hardest workers at the club according to some.

 

[George]

You’re right, and I don’t think that can be driven out of a list in the space of a couple of months of footy.

We just have to hope (what else do we have?) that a high performance environment is now in place/being put in place that over time weeds out those that have been the prime culprits of picking and choosing, and doesn’t let it seep into our younger crop who are amongst the hardest workers at the club according to some.

Yep I agree mate. Just have to weed out the types that will never take their game to the next level. Thought they'd turned a corner after the first month of footy but since then it's been L W L W L W L and we are playing some junk footy. It's concerning at the very least.

 

[AirWinmar]

Discussed a bit about skills and composure during the week. So many of our players have really bad composure and decision making. When the heats on we more often than not bomb it anywhere and give the ball back. Bye has come at a good time - we need a reset. We looked slick the first 5 or so rounds, we've gone back into headless chook ball.

 

[Plugger35]

Some damning vision of our game on the Sunday Footy Show with Kane Cornes ripping into our players. He might be a flog but his game analysis is pretty good and I couldn't argue with anything he said, the lack of effort our players produced at times yesterday compared to the Hawks was appalling.

I'm hoping our players were just tired after a couple of tough road trips and a 6 day break but there will be no excuses after having a rest with the bye.

 

[botts]

Some damning vision of our game on the Sunday Footy Show with Kane Cornes ripping into our players. He might be a flog but his game analysis is pretty good and I couldn't argue with anything he said, the lack of effort our players produced at times yesterday compared to the Hawks was appalling.

I'm hoping our players were just tired after a couple of tough road trips and a 6 day break but there will be no excuses after having a rest with the bye.

We just didn’t rock up mentally yesterday. Ross said it at the start of the game, that they all had trips booked. They had checked out.

 

[Hubnester]

Had the pleasure of seeing this live yesterday, finally finding the time to share my thoughts.

We were putrid, basically. The lack of intensity and intent was clear from the first bounce. Considering our strengths are supposed to lie in our running ability, from my perch on the wing I sure spotted a lot of players standing around doing not much.

I lost count of how many times we had the kickout or the first kick from defensive 50 to a completely stagnant field. No options presenting, no runner going by for the handball, nothing. We reverted to Ratts era 'put it on Higgins' head' or 'bomb it to the loose intercept defender scratching his arse on his own at half forward".

The lack of intensity in the middle trickled down, made it hard for our defense to do anything and made it hard for our forwards to have a decent chance of finding separation or making a contest.

Credit to Hill, Crouch, Wood, Higgins and the younger brigade who at least put in the effort.
EDIT: Forgot Nas as well, deserves a mention

One or two things bounce our way or the umpires pay a couple of missed frees to our forwards and we pinch a win, but I'm kind of glad we lost. No papering over the cracks for this one, I'm hoping this is the wake up call the team needs to realise something isn't working and we need to make a change.

Windy in please. Owens can't come back quick enough.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Too busy thinking about a week off
Tbh I'm surprised they get to do what they want
Should be hitting the gym and treadmill like any other week
Soft

 

[CaptainRisky]

I just don't get any of this we are tired, road trips ect bull sh1t , Interstate teams travel every second week , Freo beat Melbourne on their own turf , GWS beat the Cats at Geelong .
Too many on here just keep giving this mob an out , time to suck it up that we have a few out there ATM that should not be getting a game , unless they make some changes we are just in for more of the same

 

[Mowman]

“Chugging along” is how he described the midfield. Tells you a bit.

Yep 100%

hopefully Steele and Ross took notice of that little message

 

[Mowman]

I just don't get any of this we are tired, road trips ect bull sh1t , Interstate teams travel every second week , Freo beat Melbourne on their own turf , GWS beat the Cats at Geelong .
Too many on here just keep giving this mob an out , time to suck it up that we have a few out there ATM that should not be getting a game , unless they make some changes we are just in for more of the same

And it’s the same senior and leadership players that went missing last year

 

[CaptainRisky]

And it’s the same senior and leadership players that went missing last year

The so called captain shows no emotion at all , has that same sulky look all the time , if he is injured he shouldn't be playing as it sets a sh1t example

 

[Circus]

Had the pleasure of seeing this live yesterday, finally finding the time to share my thoughts.

We were putrid, basically. The lack of intensity and intent was clear from the first bounce. Considering our strengths are supposed to lie in our running ability, from my perch on the wing I sure spotted a lot of players standing around doing not much.

I lost count of how many times we had the kickout or the first kick from defensive 50 to a completely stagnant field. No options presenting, no runner going by for the handball, nothing. We reverted to Ratts era 'put it on Higgins' head' or 'bomb it to the loose intercept defender scratching his arse on his own at half forward".

The lack of intensity in the middle trickled down, made it hard for our defense to do anything and made it hard for our forwards to have a decent chance of finding separation or making a contest.

Credit to Hill, Crouch, Wood, Higgins and the younger brigade who at least put in the effort.
EDIT: Forgot Nas as well, deserves a mention

One or two things bounce our way or the umpires pay a couple of missed frees to our forwards and we pinch a win, but I'm kind of glad we lost. No papering over the cracks for this one, I'm hoping this is the wake up call the team needs to realise something isn't working and we need to make a change.

Windy in please. Owens can't come back quick enough.

Interestingly pre-game yesterday the legend Nathan Burke thought we would struggle to win because our game style relies so heavily on high intensity football. He claims it's nearly impossible to maintain this style of play for a season because the demands are too great. Especially if you have young developing players and because other teams work out how to beat that style and also get fitter themselves as your team tires the longer the season goes. Decision making, skill execution and desire drop off when players tire.

I agree with that view. However, I also think that this is about all we have to offer at present due to our lack of prime cattle and injuries preventing us from getting our first choice 22 players to embrace, and fine tune, the game plan. That is why I also think we have no obvious plan B, because we're still working on plan A.

The "year of exploration" is basic common sense. It is very obvious we have glaring weaknesses, but we can't replace all of those players in one cleanout. We have to look at who is worth keeping to help develop the younger players and the team structure. And what the discarded players would get in terms of trades etc. I expect some big decisions will be made at the end of the season, including a favourite or two being traded.

Its fair enough to question how the coaches "motivate" the players and what they did to prepare for yesterday. But, other than being clear about roles, systems etc, if you need external "motivation" you have a problem as a professional sportsman. It seems that is exactly what Wilkie was referring to and why he will probably be our captain next season.

 

[Hubnester]

Interestingly pre-game yesterday the legend Nathan Burke thought we would struggle to win because our game style relies so heavily on high intensity football. He claims it's nearly impossible to maintain this style of play for a season because the demands are too great. Especially if you have young developing players and because other teams work out how to beat that style and also get fitter themselves as your team tires the longer the season goes. Decision making, skill execution and desire drop off when players tire.

I agree with that view. However, I also think that this is about all we have to offer at present due to our lack of prime cattle and injuries preventing us from getting our first choice 22 players to embrace, and fine tune, the game plan. That is why I also think we have no obvious plan B, because we're still working on plan A.

The "year of exploration" is basic common sense. It is very obvious we have glaring weaknesses, but we can't replace all of those players in one cleanout. We have to look at who is worth keeping to help develop the younger players and the team structure. And what the discarded players would get in terms of trades etc. I expect some big decisions will be made at the end of the season, including a favourite or two being traded.

Its fair enough to question how the coaches "motivate" the players and what they did to prepare for yesterday. But, other than being clear about roles, systems etc, if you need external "motivation" you have a problem as a professional sportsman. It seems that is exactly what Wilkie was referring to and why he will probably be our captain next season.

That was my concern early in the season as well. Our footy looked great but it certainly didn't look sustainable. I had just hoped we had a different gear to go to but we don't seem to have that plan B worked out just yet.

Definitely think Wilks should be captain going forward. He can step, up while we let Steele rest and recover, he can come back fit and then next year let him focus on his footy in my opinion.

 

[Plugger35]

Too busy thinking about a week off
Tbh I'm surprised they get to do what they want
Should be hitting the gym and treadmill like any other week
Soft

They are still entitled to have a break over the bye despite losing yesterday and it should hopefully help to freshen them up for the rest of the season.

I still hope that loss burns away at them over the break though and they come back determined to make amends for it with a win against the Swans.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Yep 100%

hopefully Steele and Ross took notice of that little message

Yesterday Steele and others looked almost checked out and not invested in the game at all. Whatever the issue, its not what anyone needs to see of our captain/leaders and the club needs to sort it out.

The energy the kids and the new staff brought has now worn off and perhaps we are seeing how exposed this list truly is? I wondered early on whether we could maintain the level of pressure required to maintain the game style we were playing. Obviously the answer is no, this mid season form slump is really no different to last year. Except this year the club has a chance to improve the second half of the year.

They were raving about how much fitter they were starting the season perhaps that edge has levelled out I dont know. I think its more mental, the group are simply not mentally robust enough to sustain the effort. When you have leaders like Steele who just turned up his toes yesterday, it will make it hard for the group to achieve anything really.

Any momentum they built earlier in the season has been lost and they are now back in that 6-12 ladder projection. Perhaps they can turn their form around, but gees they make it hard to trust this group.

 

[PoppedCorn]

They are still entitled to have a break over the bye despite losing yesterday and it should hopefully help to freshen them up for the rest of the season.

I still hope that loss burns away at them over the break though and they come back determined to make amends for it with a win against the Swans.

Dont care

They checked out before that game
We looked shit ten mins in
Too much of someone else will do it syndrome
Hit the gym not the airport for beers on holiday

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Dont care

They checked out before that game
We looked s**t ten mins in
Too much of someone else will do it syndrome
Hit the gym not the airport for beers on holiday

Was it Windy and Owens who stayed behind last year and trained?

No wonder they make our seniors look like wet crepe paper.

 

[Mowman]

Was it Windy and Owens who stayed behind last year and trained?

No wonder they make our seniors look like wet crepe paper.

RTB said our players do around 15 hours a week at the club it’s a joke
it’s the same players that let us down after the bye last year
Steele. Ross. Howard Gresh. Hill

 

[StFly]

I think Higgins in form is handy, and an unusual forward. With Butler down there, it would worry oppositions.
My main frustration is when we play through him like a mini Jason Dunstall. Oh Higgins is leading one-one-one, I'll kick it long to him. It has to be a brilliant kick for him to take those.
I used to blame him for that a bit, but I think sometimes he's often the only forward identifying the space and presenting well. When Ross kicked to him long in the third last night, I paused it, and the other forwards were nowhere. King was off the ground, Caminiti and the others were in no man's land doing nothing. The only other option was a kick into space just inside 50 where 2 Saints could have taken it, but there was a bit of an interception risk.
So I think part of the problem is structure, and other forwards presenting better options.
Unfortunately Higgins sometimes gets about as many tackles as Dunstall too. Definitely something he needs to work on.

This is why I'm keeping him in that F50 with King, he's just a smart small forward that recognises patterns and the mids we have actually use him unlike Sharman up there. Previously we had Owens as CHF so Higgins could be a third and just roam, now we have Caminiti and he's just new so is unreliable really but will contest, so without King there, without having key midfield instances, I am 100% on Higgins being selfish because what else do we have?

Caminiti actually reaching ceilings consistently?
Pou doing the same?
Butler scrapping like a mad man cause he certainly aint leading he's there for the crumb?
Our mids actually pull the finger out and gain ascendency?

In that F50 it's King and Higgins then daylight for players that we as a club can and do use to score consistently, everything else is a struggle. Structurally, Owens is monumentally important to that F50, there is a metric shit tonne of pressure on Keeler to come good and Hayes to immediatelyt coem back with same sort of form lines as we have no other cover for a potential 2m guy to dump kick on outside of them as the rest are core rucks and not forwards. We are in for a world of hurt if anything happens to anyone tall in that F50 and Higgins is the main man as everyone else has moments to stick thumbs up arse in a match and be clueless chooks.

I don't want to go back to Membrey and Caminiti with Sharman or Cordy when King is otherwise indisposed, we are clutching and hoping in that set up in current form instances with our mids. It needs to be a symbiosis between the two, and really it's only Owens, King, Higgins, Wood that have that in forward of centre.

 

[Klaatu]

Part of the problem yesterday is Caminti didn’t take enough marks & he really needs to kick 2-3 goals a game for the roll he plays, fully understand he’s young coming off a low base but he & King can get 6-7 between them we win most games.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[luca77]

Interestingly pre-game yesterday the legend Nathan Burke thought we would struggle to win because our game style relies so heavily on high intensity football. He claims it's nearly impossible to maintain this style of play for a season because the demands are too great. Especially if you have young developing players and because other teams work out how to beat that style and also get fitter themselves as your team tires the longer the season goes. Decision making, skill execution and desire drop off when players tire.

I agree with that view. However, I also think that this is about all we have to offer at present due to our lack of prime cattle and injuries preventing us from getting our first choice 22 players to embrace, and fine tune, the game plan. That is why I also think we have no obvious plan B, because we're still working on plan A.

The "year of exploration" is basic common sense. It is very obvious we have glaring weaknesses, but we can't replace all of those players in one cleanout. We have to look at who is worth keeping to help develop the younger players and the team structure. And what the discarded players would get in terms of trades etc. I expect some big decisions will be made at the end of the season, including a favourite or two being traded.

Its fair enough to question how the coaches "motivate" the players and what they did to prepare for yesterday. But, other than being clear about roles, systems etc, if you need external "motivation" you have a problem as a professional sportsman. It seems that is exactly what Wilkie was referring to and why he will probably be our captain next season.

Yeah, I always used to get concerned when Richo and Ratts seemed to hang everything on effort. Maximum effort and intensity are bloody hard to maintain when your confidence drops. Easy to maintain when you're on a run like the Pies are - they do all the tough stuff with a smile at the moment.

In the first couple of rounds, it looked like we'd really worked on system - so that we weren't 100% reliant on frenzied effort or bust. Some people are saying that other teams have worked us out, and bust through our structures - but I think it's pretty clear that the gridlock hasn't been set up in as determined a way as it was early in the season. Probably a bit of both.

I reckon the players were terrified when they realised Ross was coming. I have no idea what he's actually like without the cameras on him, but it seems the idea of scary RTB was a lot more motivating than the reality of cuddly, delegating RTB.

I do think that our assistants are top quality, and SURELY that amount of experience, knowledge and ability will be able to get something better out of these players than we've seen in the last few weeks. I mean f**** ... we get a hundred constructive ideas on BigFooty each week. They must be coming up with much better ones than us. I think we're finding our level and will end up there, but I also think we can be much better than this.

 

[StCicatriz]

Do you need an ambulance called???

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yuck timely reminder that you are sending this to a living breathing human and not some chat bot.

Might be a good time to reflect if that's how you want to speak to people.

 

[St Bongo]

Thoughts after 24 hours, to let the anger subside to volcanic levels:

• Our game plan during that early part of the season was built on manic levels of intensity and effort. If, as a lot are suggesting, the reason for our drop off is because that cannot be sustained across a season, then it is not a viable game plan and the coaching group have wasted a year.
• If Steele is indeed playing hurt, then that is doing a disservice to him, the club and the supporters. It doesn't help the team, ir certainly doesn't help him, exposing him to criticism about his effort and leadership and it frustrates the supporters. They could have used the period going into the bye to give him a 3-4 week spell to get himself right for the second half of the season. And that would have allowed the coaching group to get more games into a younger mid, such as Windhager.
• Speaking of Windhager, RTB has stated in his press conferences that he is working on things. I would rather him work on the those things in the seniors than watch a struggling Steele or Seb Ross or Crouch. He has been getting 30-40 touches in the VFL which surely says he has a fair idea what is he doing and just needs to tweak a few things.
• If this was the good old days (showing my age), the players's little mid season, bye round trips to sunnier climes, would be cancelled and they would be doing a mini pre-season instead. But with the collective bargaining agreement and all that BS, the players will get their time off from their gruelling, 15 hour weeks and feel contented with the season so far.
• Sometimes RTB, it seems to me, thinks he is smarter than everyone else when it comes to football and to change what he is doing would dent his superiority complex. Case in point, Sicily! Any other coach would have done something to change the course of events that was allowing Sicily to have a flipping picnic. If Sidebottom and his Pies teammates were laughing at Carlton when Moore was intercepting everything, Sam Mitchell and his assistants would have been pissing themselves like the easily amused at a stand up gig.