Autopsy Round 11, 2023: St.Kilda v Hawthorn

[Mowman]

Not patronising - just pointing out that apparently we played really poorly AND YET we were still 20 points up early in the last.

People think there's a vast gulf between the teams - there isn't.

Don't bring maximum effort to every game then you are trouble - ask Melb, Geelong and Doggies.

My take on the season so far - we over trained in the pre season - cost a lot in injuries but brought a fitness level ahead of other teams. They are now catching up and we are struggling just at a time when we are starting to chop and change our squad with players coming back and others struggling with injuries.

Bye has come at the perfect time for us because we aren't s***.

20 points up and then let 17th placed side kick 5 unanswered goals

we were 8 - 3 same time last year, pretty fair that a lot of supporters don’t trust the club

 

[Diehard Saint]

20 points up and then let 17th placed side kick 5 unanswered goals

we were 8 - 3 same time last year, pretty fair that a lot supporters don’t trust the club

The faith is certainly being tested.
Having said that, I do have more faith in RTB righting the ship ( dare I say, Titanic?) than I did Ratts.

 

[PandaG]

I think Jack steele

9

Jack Steele

Age

28

Ht

187cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.9

5star

K

8.7

3star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

6.8

5star

CL

3.6

5star

D

21.3

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

16.8

4star

K

5.0

2star

HB

11.8

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

6.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

need to be moved on as captain
Great inspirational player but not a captain, the fact there was nothing done about the ‘drinking culture’ from a player driven space is alarming.

Give it to king or Wilkie, let Jack play footy…
There was a great review from Ben Dixon

Ben Dixon

Age

47

Ht

188cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.8

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.4

3star

G

1.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.4

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.4

5star

on first crack tonight
Pretty much said the experienced players weren’t willing to run hard enough and work hard enough in the contest and we’re not desperate enough to get the younger kids to the right spots…the vision he showed of our poor on-field leadership was stark.

And whenyou think about it, who are the onfield leaders..?? Ones like Rooey, Lenny, Frawley?

I can see why Ross is keen to have Fyfe playing.

 

[PandaG]

20 points up and then let 17th placed side kick 5 unanswered goals

we were 8 - 3 same time last year, pretty fair that a lot supporters don’t trust the club

I agree. It’s a long way back from that loss.
The effort to get it he footy these days is not worth the last two, hawks and Roos games.
Both have been ‘same old saints’

Loved Ben Dixon slamming us tonight. He was emotional and absolutely spot on. Until we find a Scott Pendlebury, Max Gawn, Luke hodge or Joel Selwood, we will never win a flag.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Interesting 5 of tge 8 games this week were upsets. Not that the Saints weren't rubbish bit maybe something in the air.

Funny how there are weeks that go like that occasionally.
In the end, e should have jumped up the ladder, but it didn’t land up costing us.

Still, better sort things out quick smart. We have no right to take any team for granted.

 

[Mowman]

I think Jack steele need to be moved on as captain
Great inspirational player but not a captain, the fact there was nothing done about the ‘drinking culture’ from a player driven space is alarming.

Give it to king or Wilkie, let Jack play footy…
There was a great review from Ben Dixon on first crack tonight
Pretty much said the experienced players weren’t willing to run hard enough and work hard enough in the contest and we’re not desperate enough to get the younger kids to the right spots…the vision he showed of our poor on-field leadership was stark.

And whenyou think about it, who are the onfield leaders..?? Ones like Rooey, Lenny, Frawley?

I can see why Ross is keen to have Fyfe playing.

Haven’t seen 1st crack yet will watch tomorrow

But being at the game yesterday watching how little effort a few put in to their running either way and complete lack effort to tackle Dixon sounds spot on

 

[George]

20 points up and then let 17th placed side kick 5 unanswered goals

we were 8 - 3 same time last year, pretty fair that a lot supporters don’t trust the club

The disappointing thing is that even if we snuck home and won it's still a pretty shoddy effort. Perhaps winning those kinds of games papers over the cracks, or at least leads to players feeling like they are better than they actually are - so in a way it could be a good thing that we lost, despite how shit the whole situation is.

I'll admit to acting like a bit of a nutcase after the game yesterday (a good reminder to give it a day before sharing thoughts LOL) but it's the games where we don't show up or lose ones we shouldn't that really piss me off. Port was the same, just a complete lack of on-field leadership and deciding when to turn up. I don't blame anyone here for feeling pissed off about where things are at.

Where is the group that responded multiple times v Essendon at the MCG earlier in the year? Or the side that ran all over the Bulldogs with a dozen of our best players out?

We're a bipolar side. Our strongest side all year lets a wooden spoon club kick 5 unanswered goals to win a game yet when we've got a dozen out we beat top 8 sides by 50 points.

I said at the start of the year that I wouldn't be able to trust this group until I saw what a year under Lyon did to them. I got caught up in the good start like most but it's back to reality a bit for me. Really shows that it doesn't matter how great the coaches are, if the players don't have a crack then we go nowhere.

 

[bergholt]

Not patronising - just pointing out that apparently we played really poorly AND YET we were still 20 points up early in the last.

It was pretty clear at the game that that was because the second bottom team kicked poorly at goal, and we had the run of the luck and umpiring decisions. Not sure it’s something to be super proud of tbh.

 

[PandaG]

It was pretty clear at the game that that was because the second bottom team kicked poorly at goal, and we had the run of the luck and umpiring decisions. Not sure it’s something to be super proud of tbh.

Agree
We were soundly beaten
The running power I saw at the game round one where I felt exhausted watching them play, to Saturday where it was all a bit too hard….like Dixon said
Same old saints.

 

[bergholt]

We have three very loseable games after the bye. Win zero or only one of them and I reckon it’s time to build for next year because we won’t be troubling the scorers even if we make finals.

On the other hand, beat Sydney, Richmond, Brisbane in consecutive weeks then I think we’ll be sitting pretty going into the West Coast game and the faith is back.

 

[Mowman]

I think Jack steele need to be moved on as captain
Great inspirational player but not a captain, the fact there was nothing done about the ‘drinking culture’ from a player driven space is alarming.

Give it to king or Wilkie, let Jack play footy…
There was a great review from Ben Dixon on first crack tonight
Pretty much said the experienced players weren’t willing to run hard enough and work hard enough in the contest and we’re not desperate enough to get the younger kids to the right spots…the vision he showed of our poor on-field leadership was stark.

And whenyou think about it, who are the onfield leaders..?? Ones like Rooey, Lenny, Frawley?

I can see why Ross is keen to have Fyfe playing.

Think you would find Jack would sook it up if captaincy was taken of him

 

[Mowman]

We have three very loseable games after the bye. Win zero or only one of them and I reckon it’s time to build for next year because we won’t be troubling the scorers even if we make finals.

On the other hand, beat Sydney, Richmond, Brisbane in consecutive weeks then I think we’ll be sitting pretty going into the West Coast game and the faith is back.

On form of last 5 weeks we will be lucky to win one them

 

[bergholt]

On form of last 5 weeks we will be lucky one them

Yep in which case send Steele for surgery, whoever else is necessary and let’s have a big preseason.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Think you would find Jack would sook it up if captaincy was taken of him

Do he and RTB have a great relationship in any event? We dont know what goes on at the club etc but obviously he was elected captain by the group.

I just get feeling Steele does appear moody at times, he is definitely not the onfield leader I would want as coach. Co captains would have been the go this year with Cal Wilkie as the obvious other.

 

[stfan]

Look I still have faith in RTB and Crew.

HOWEVER this was always going to just be Year 1 of turning the club around.

If you look at our list"

• No GUN mids. Even Steele at his beast was not a gun mid, just a very good one
• Roma is not going too well at the centre square bounces.
• These two factors combine so that we are starting too often on the HB line. This is a near permanent handicap each game.
  
  AND:
• Way too many players with poor kicking skills. A few you can get away with if they excel in other areas, but we have way too many. Too often we turn the ball over in our chain of possessions with a poor kick, and then the rebound hurts us.

To become a true top 4 team we need more class, especially in the midfield, but also generally a around the ground.

I mean how many players do we have on our list that an opposition supporter would lust after? Bugga all.

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

What game were you watching??

Sorry '"centre square bounce" fixed it

 

[tomjoad]

Think you would find Jack would sook it up if captaincy was taken of him

Really!? And I mean this as a genuine question, with no sarcasm.
I know you have at least some knowledge of what goes on over there.
He's never seemed comfortable with it to me...but that's just a vibe.
He needs to be more involved (as in vocal) during the game, I only get to watch games online, but he just seems sort of vacant. To be fair most of the leadership group does.
Am I wrong?

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

The disappointing thing is that even if we snuck home and won it's still a pretty shoddy effort. Perhaps winning those kinds of games papers over the cracks, or at least leads to players feeling like they are better than they actually are - so in a way it could be a good thing that we lost, despite how s**t the whole situation is.

I'll admit to acting like a bit of a nutcase after the game yesterday (a good reminder to give it a day before sharing thoughts LOL) but it's the games where we don't show up or lose ones we shouldn't that really piss me off. Port was the same, just a complete lack of on-field leadership and deciding when to turn up. I don't blame anyone here for feeling pissed off about where things are at.

Where is the group that responded multiple times v Essendon at the MCG earlier in the year? Or the side that ran all over the Bulldogs with a dozen of our best players out?

We're a bipolar side. Our strongest side all year lets a wooden spoon club kick 5 unanswered goals to win a game yet when we've got a dozen out we beat top 8 sides by 50 points.

I said at the start of the year that I wouldn't be able to trust this group until I saw what a year under Lyon did to them. I got caught up in the good start like most but it's back to reality a bit for me. Really shows that it doesn't matter how great the coaches are, if the players don't have a crack then we go nowhere.

It's simples really no Z. Cordy...no saints killer edge!
RTB knows what needs to be done to right the ship...

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

Do we get free red rooster chips for it?

I wondered out loud what that add on the big screen meant...
I flew over for the game. Missed my 6.00 flight coz I was on the sauce with a mate at my local and I kept winning on the pool table...so I ponied up for another ticket. The start of the game felt weird the crowd was quiet as for over 33K The number of times the saints stuffed up going forward was nuts, comedy stuff at times...there was pointing and directing from saints players I saw...however Hawthorn always seemed to have a spare and there forward delivery was much better, the game should have been over much earlier the Hawks kept the Saints in it, missed tackles galore and it didn't look like a consistent effort from where I was sitting, Gresham selfishness going for goal when he had 3 team mates open in front of home was shite. Nas is a gun,
Owens Windhager Cordy in, give Billings a run as sub maybe, I don't give a Rat's Toss Bag who goes out. Not happy Jan!

 

[gringo2011]

The disappointing thing is that even if we snuck home and won it's still a pretty shoddy effort. Perhaps winning those kinds of games papers over the cracks, or at least leads to players feeling like they are better than they actually are - so in a way it could be a good thing that we lost, despite how s**t the whole situation is.

I'll admit to acting like a bit of a nutcase after the game yesterday (a good reminder to give it a day before sharing thoughts LOL) but it's the games where we don't show up or lose ones we shouldn't that really piss me off. Port was the same, just a complete lack of on-field leadership and deciding when to turn up. I don't blame anyone here for feeling pissed off about where things are at.

Where is the group that responded multiple times v Essendon at the MCG earlier in the year? Or the side that ran all over the Bulldogs with a dozen of our best players out?

We're a bipolar side. Our strongest side all year lets a wooden spoon club kick 5 unanswered goals to win a game yet when we've got a dozen out we beat top 8 sides by 50 points.

I said at the start of the year that I wouldn't be able to trust this group until I saw what a year under Lyon did to them. I got caught up in the good start like most but it's back to reality a bit for me. Really shows that it doesn't matter how great the coaches are, if the players don't have a crack then we go nowhere.

The only positive is that looked like one of the performances that the Ratts Saints would have just collapsed and rolled over. Those losses to sides like Essendon where we just shat ourselves when tested were scarring.

 

[gringo2011]

We have three very loseable games after the bye. Win zero or only one of them and I reckon it’s time to build for next year because we won’t be troubling the scorers even if we make finals.

On the other hand, beat Sydney, Richmond, Brisbane in consecutive weeks then I think we’ll be sitting pretty going into the West Coast game and the faith is back.

Jesus, I hope the club isn't that soft. I did the ladder predictor and if we lose all the losable ones we miss finals on percentage and that's with big losses to sides like Brisbane and Geelong. We just have to stand upright and stumble into finals this year. We win one game against a better side and we probably play finals. Keep the losses to low scores and add some big scores against strugglers and we play finals even.

Next year there is no reason why we improve. If anything we have less scope than sides like Gold Coast and Essendon, even GWS to improve. If we tank at the first hurdle we might as well fold.

We chose a very commercially poor fixture over an easier run. To give up when the heat goes up would be embarrassing to be honest and part of why we are such a weak club. Playing finals lets us go in to next year confident, probably attracts free agents and ring ins etc.

If Lyon starts to advocate tanking, it's time to move him on. Luckily I don't think he's that type of coach. He's the type that doesn't believe that the list is an impediment to success, only application and effort hold sides back.

 

[gringo2011]

It was pretty clear at the game that that was because the second bottom team kicked poorly at goal, and we had the run of the luck and umpiring decisions. Not sure it’s something to be super proud of tbh.

The only thing I'd say about the goal kicking is that the Hawks took shots from everywhere and just took rushed snaps and low percentage long range chances which is what Adelaide did to great success. It means they put our defence out of position but requires a bit of luck.

 

[bird_man]

Not patronising - just pointing out that apparently we played really poorly AND YET we were still 20 points up early in the last.

People think there's a vast gulf between the teams - there isn't.

Don't bring maximum effort to every game then you are trouble - ask Melb, Geelong and Doggies.

My take on the season so far - we over trained in the pre season - cost a lot in injuries but brought a fitness level ahead of other teams. They are now catching up and we are struggling just at a time when we are starting to chop and change our squad with players coming back and others struggling with injuries.

Bye has come at the perfect time for us because we aren't s***.

We did play awful. Only reason we were up at all was due to Hawthorns poor kicking in front of goals. Lyon himself said we should have lost by more.

The loss had a lot of similarities to the one against Essendon last year which was the start of our down fall so it's easy to understand the frustration from fans.

I'm not sure we can use changing of personal as an excuse. Every team does this and we have still used the least amount of players in the comp. Bringing better players like Max King back does not have a negative impact on the team I wouldn't think.

We got smashed in the midfield, the same midfield we have been rolling out most of the year and also for the last 3 years.

 

[D2D3]

20 points up and then let 17th placed side kick 5 unanswered goals

we were 8 - 3 same time last year, pretty fair that a lot of supporters don’t trust the club

The alarming thing for me is that 3 of our last 4 games have been woeful in ways that it looked like we’d got rid of at the start of the year. And watching the midfield get smashed on Saturday just makes me question what the hell we thought we were doing going with the set up we did.

It’s not so much that we lost, but the way we did that is really concerning me.

 

[saintmike65]

I think they've all won AFL best and fairests. They're good players but Steele, especially, is in horrid form. Sebby is and up and down prospect at the moment. Crouch is fine.
I understand the coaches wanting to play Steele into form but I believe Ratts butchered his season last year waiting for Zak Jones to hit a level that never came. You just can't keep carrying someone at the coalface.
Let's hope they all sort themselves out soon so that we can keep winning while introducing younger players into the middle on our own terms.

You’ve looked at those players individually..I’m taking about them as a collective centre bounce set up..