Autopsy Round 2, 2023: Positives and Negatives vs GWS

[Keys]

It's very refreshing to see a player like Ginbey in the Eagles, I haven't seen that kind of hunger out of our players for a very long time.

I'm not sure if O.Allen is as good as we think he is, he has ability but he needs to work on his mental game.

Allen was only playing his second game since late 2021 (18 months ago). Back then he was the 3rd string forward behind JK and JD but is now being asked to be the main forward

So not only is he rediscovering his touch and picking up the pace of the game again, he is also doing it whilst being matched up by the oppositions best defender

He definitely looked rusty and Taylor, who is a very good defender, had his measure. He still kicked 2 goals and with a bit more composure that’ll come with more game time he could have had another couple

He’ll be ok once he finds his rhythm

 

[flamingEMBERS]

Barrass needs to go back putting a body on. Him Giving his opponent 5-10m every marking contest clearly ain’t working.

Gaff, oh how the might have fallen


Positives
So many have already been said but a few I’ll add

• Darling was immense for us on Sunday. Just kept competing
• Ginbey looked great, but still seems a bit timid and willing to give to a senior player. I guess time will come when he gets the swagger
• Cripps’ repeat chase effort in the 3rd quarter was unbelievable. More of that buy in from everyone.

 

[Chris_6678]

Allen's timing is a little out which is to be expected.

4 goals 4 over 2 games is decent return for a player not having played for 18 months.

 

[Astro7]

Allen's timing is a little out which is to be expected.

4 goals 4 over 2 games is decent return for a player not having played for 18 months.

Exactly, he did say his depth perception or something was a little rusty, still needed fine tuning - nothing a couple more games won't solve.
Daresay Ginbey's rushed helicopter kicks will settle with more game time...

 

[Yeahnahmate]

It's very refreshing to see a player like Ginbey in the Eagles, I haven't seen that kind of hunger out of our players for a very long time.

I'm not sure if O.Allen is as good as we think he is, he has ability but he needs to work on his mental game.

Oz is a huge talent always was and still is. Will be huge for us going forward and still plenty young enough. Just great to see him on the park for us right now tbh getting back into the swing of it

 

[WCE_phil]

I like what your saying but it also sounds like you are advocating Simmo to implement the plan (as he is the the architect) so he will be with us for the next tilt at the GF?
I like Simmo so I don't mind but some supporters here might bust a pooper valve.

This is the whole basis behind what I mentioned. The issue becomes in replacing the coach, the new coach comes with new ideas (mostly a good thing) and will want to stamp himself upon the team, the game plan and the environment (club) which particularly if they are a first time senior coach means needing to win games straight away which can be detrimental to the long term future. See St Kilda amongst many others of this revolving cycle.

A lot of what I posted is how an AFL club (particularly one as conservative as the eagles) sees things. Simmo is implementing the new game plan as much as possible based around the players that we have. The key issue here is the two main parts that make the game plan work are from a player perspective currently our two weakest areas.

Also people are questioning why Gaff was played predominantly more inside on the weekend. The answer is staring everyone in the face. It was so Chesser could be selected and play outside. Chesser isn't ready for AFL football from either a fitness or development perspective. As someone who has done some work with clubs particularly in the talent acquisition area there is only one reason to do this. With Chesser having played so little football in the last few years but being a high level talent they are trying to play catch up on his development particularly from an AFL speed and footy IQ perspective. With fully fit players he may last another week or two if that before being sent back to the WAFL with things to work on and then we will likely see Gaff back on the wing.

Now I am not suggesting Gaff had a good or great game on the weekend playing the role he was given. But I am sure as shit he performed that role better than Exxon did the week before and I am certain that is the point. I think the club are pretty close to the point of putting a ruler through Exxon's name as an AFL level player.

The huge issue the club has is that we need to maintain our revenue stream so the club is putting out positive stories and shitfeeding information to supporters and members making sure we hit those minimum requirements before we see the season go down hill. Look at where GWS finished last year and their midfield as well as their injuries on the day. We in essence played against their midfield missing 4 of their 7 first choice mids from last year and one of their replacements was severely hampered early in the game. The club is likely to get absolutely smashed again in contested and uncontested ball against almost all opponents in coming weeks. We simply don't have the cattle and the ones we do have that are able to compete one on one and break even or win their position are mostly injured.

Culley had an outstanding preseason and I expect had he not been injured (speculation here but I think he thought he could power through the initial minor injury which has seen the long time line and now we have a shoulder complaint to compound that) he would have been rolled out in the middle in round 1 and to more effect than Ginbey.

We really are significantly behind every other midfield in the competition in the contest with Nicnat and Yeo injured. It's that simple. Shuey has to manage his body and have his workload restricted or he will have an almost immediate soft tissue injury (I haven't seen him actually take a full stretch sprinting stride, yes he sprints but not at full stride like an old boy playing footy so as to not ping a hammy). Kelly and Sheed are great as stoppage midfielders but not centre square ball winning mids. They just don't have the strength but along with Ginbey as a first year wrecking ball (who then gets lost on transition) that's what we have.

We are years away from solving that. As long as we see competitive efforts and continued buy in from the players to the process I actually hope the club sticks with simpson as the club is in a spot where we simply don't have the cattle and development level of the youngsters we have ready. I think most here would rather the clubs approach and what we have seen as opposed to the Hawks approach which we have seen across the league has failed almost every time.

It's a 5 year draft rebuild and we are two years in. We then need a **** load of luck, trades and some more free agents to become a premiership side again.

 

[VicBased]

This is the whole basis behind what I mentioned. The issue becomes in replacing the coach, the new coach comes with new ideas (mostly a good thing) and will want to stamp himself upon the team, the game plan and the environment (club) which particularly if they are a first time senior coach means needing to win games straight away which can be detrimental to the long term future. See St Kilda amongst many others of this revolving cycle.

A lot of what I posted is how an AFL club (particularly one as conservative as the eagles) sees things. Simmo is implementing the new game plan as much as possible based around the players that we have. The key issue here is the two main parts that make the game plan work are from a player perspective currently our two weakest areas.

Also people are questioning why Gaff was played predominantly more inside on the weekend. The answer is staring everyone in the face. It was so Chesser could be selected and play outside. Chesser isn't ready for AFL football from either a fitness or development perspective. As someone who has done some work with clubs particularly in the talent acquisition area there is only one reason to do this. With Chesser having played so little football in the last few years but being a high level talent they are trying to play catch up on his development particularly from an AFL speed and footy IQ perspective. With fully fit players he may last another week or two if that before being sent back to the WAFL with things to work on and then we will likely see Gaff back on the wing.

Now I am not suggesting Gaff had a good or great game on the weekend playing the role he was given. But I am sure as s**t he performed that role better than Exxon did the week before and I am certain that is the point. I think the club are pretty close to the point of putting a ruler through Exxon's name as an AFL level player.

The huge issue the club has is that we need to maintain our revenue stream so the club is putting out positive stories and shitfeeding information to supporters and members making sure we hit those minimum requirements before we see the season go down hill. Look at where GWS finished last year and their midfield as well as their injuries on the day. We in essence played against their midfield missing 4 of their 7 first choice mids from last year and one of their replacements was severely hampered early in the game. The club is likely to get absolutely smashed again in contested and uncontested ball against almost all opponents in coming weeks. We simply don't have the cattle and the ones we do have that are able to compete one on one and break even or win their position are mostly injured.

Culley had an outstanding preseason and I expect had he not been injured (speculation here but I think he thought he could power through the initial minor injury which has seen the long time line and now we have a shoulder complaint to compound that) he would have been rolled out in the middle in round 1 and to more effect than Ginbey.

We really are significantly behind every other midfield in the competition in the contest with Nicnat and Yeo injured. It's that simple. Shuey has to manage his body and have his workload restricted or he will have an almost immediate soft tissue injury (I haven't seen him actually take a full stretch sprinting stride, yes he sprints but not at full stride like an old boy playing footy so as to not ping a hammy). Kelly and Sheed are great as stoppage midfielders but not centre square ball winning mids. They just don't have the strength but along with Ginbey as a first year wrecking ball (who then gets lost on transition) that's what we have.

We are years away from solving that. As long as we see competitive efforts and continued buy in from the players to the process I actually hope the club sticks with simpson as the club is in a spot where we simply don't have the cattle and development level of the youngsters we have ready. I think most here would rather the clubs approach and what we have seen as opposed to the Hawks approach which we have seen across the league has failed almost every time.

It's a 5 year draft rebuild and we are two years in. We then need a * load of luck, trades and some more free agents to become a premiership side again.

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.
Much appreciated.

 

[FKASC]

He definitely looked rusty and Taylor, who is a very good defender, had his measure.

I’d go as far to say he’s one of the best one on one key defenders in the comp

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Still should have kicked at least a dozen IMHO.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

 

[THE A5]

Love crippa but he makes the sexiest of goals look unsexy

 

[Ishmael_]

Pardon the intrusion, but I thought Jayden Hunt was great for you guys yesterday. I think he will shine out on the wing at Optus oval. Funnily enough his pick up for you guys could be similar to what Ed Langdon (good runner, questionable disposal) was for us. We never really played him as a winger but he looked a natural out there.

100%, the similarities are uncanny down to the headband. I always liked Langdon, Freo were too cavalier with losing him imo.

In today's territory game, pace, a long kick, and half decent contest work is such a weapon on the wing.

 

[Ishmael_]

Suppose I do agree in general that to win a premiership we need a player of Jones' skillset but with consistently improved outcomes/retention of his kicks. I just think that player can in time be Jones himself

I remember listening to Jetts on some podcast or another and he was talking about how he practiced the shit out of his kicking, so that he could take those outlandish kicks in game.

Many thought he was just a natural. And he was a good kick coming into AFL but he was at pains to say that the precision came with hard work and repetition.

I'd give Jones the role and challenge him to be an elite kick. He already has a long boot and lovely action, let's see what he can do.

 

[WCE_phil]

I remember listening to Jetts on some podcast or another and he was talking about how he practiced the s**t out of his kicking, so that he could take those outlandish kicks in game.

Many thought he was just a natural. And he was a good kick coming into AFL but he was at pains to say that the precision came with hard work and repetition.

I'd give Jones the role and challenge him to be an elite kick. He already has a long boot and lovely action, let's see what he can do.

Jetta was already an outstanding kick to begin with. Jones has penetration and distance on his kicking but he could train his kicking as much as possible and won't ever get anywhere near that level.

He is a below average kick at AFL level. Jetta was arguably the best field kick in the league, you can't make that up with practice once you're in your mid twenties. If it was possible then all players skills would improve significantly over the years. He may get his kicking to Yeo like standards whereby they both have the same advantages to their kicking and Jones will cut down some of the mistakes but he won't ever be elite. Kicking is a combination of many things and a large part of that is the ability to read and draw the play with your kicking. He doesn't have that ability. The reality is almost all players kicking ability skills are almost as good as they'll get by the time they are drafted, the thing that improves over their career is their decision making.

Masten was the best kick in our side for a very long time but lacked for almost his entire career the footy IQ to take advantage of his footskills and because of making the wrong decisions his kicking at times looked poor, particularly early on in his career. Kicking to a leading target was great but breaking the game open, splitting teams zones and flooding, he just didn't have the ability to make those elite plays due to decision making. If you ever get the chance to ask JK who was the best kick to lead onto you will hear it from the horses mouth.

 

[Truckosaurus]

View attachment 1643318

Still should have kicked at least a dozen IMHO.

I voted for the Subi boy

 

[Ishmael_]

Jetta was already an outstanding kick to begin with. Jones has penetration and distance on his kicking but he could train his kicking as much as possible and won't ever get anywhere near that level.

He is a below average kick at AFL level. Jetta was arguably the best field kick in the league, you can't make that up with practice once you're in your mid twenties. If it was possible then all players skills would improve significantly over the years. He may get his kicking to Yeo like standards whereby they both have the same advantages to their kicking and Jones will cut down some of the mistakes but he won't ever be elite. Kicking is a combination of many things and a large part of that is the ability to read and draw the play with your kicking. He doesn't have that ability. The reality is almost all players kicking ability skills are almost as good as they'll get by the time they are drafted, the thing that improves over their career is their decision making.

Masten was the best kick in our side for a very long time but lacked for almost his entire career the footy IQ to take advantage of his footskills and because of making the wrong decisions his kicking at times looked poor, particularly early on in his career. Kicking to a leading target was great but breaking the game open, splitting teams zones and flooding, he just didn't have the ability to make those elite plays due to decision making. If you ever get the chance to ask JK who was the best kick to lead onto you will hear it from the horses mouth.

Your Masten point is astute, technically a very good kick, but without the footy smarts to exploit it. He also had little penetration on his kick.

But I think you're overrating the kicking ability in the AFL in 2023. There aren't many pacey half backs with elite kicking skills.

I would happily take a Jones with Yeo level kicking.

 

[WCE_phil]

Your Masten point is astute, technically a very good kick, but without the footy smarts to exploit it. He also had little penetration on his kick.

But I think you're overrating the kicking ability in the AFL in 2023. There aren't many pacey half backs with elite kicking skills.

I would happily take a Jones with Yeo level kicking.

So would I, however my point is, that is as good as it is ever potentially going to get.

 

[THE A5]

Yeo's kicking was elite when he was playing as a back flanker and he was great on his left too. Unsurprisingly it dropped off when he became an inside mid. It just goes to show how underrated Shuey's kicking has been throughout his career. It hardly even gets mentioned in the commentary

 

[Ishmael_]

Yeo's kicking was elite when he was playing as a back flanker and he was great on his left too. Unsurprisingly it dropped off when he became an inside mid. It just goes to show how underrated Shuey's kicking has been throughout his career. It hardly even gets mentioned in the commentary

It's all time and pressure. Even in my own experience, you have so much more time behind the ball.

And it is wild how little appreciation there is for Shuey's ability on both feet. He is giving Mitchell/Sidebottom delivery on both feet while exploding from packs.

JK also underrated, but got a bit of recognition towards the end.

 

[Kegs15]

Jetta was already an outstanding kick to begin with. Jones has penetration and distance on his kicking but he could train his kicking as much as possible and won't ever get anywhere near that level.

He is a below average kick at AFL level. Jetta was arguably the best field kick in the league, you can't make that up with practice once you're in your mid twenties. If it was possible then all players skills would improve significantly over the years. He may get his kicking to Yeo like standards whereby they both have the same advantages to their kicking and Jones will cut down some of the mistakes but he won't ever be elite. Kicking is a combination of many things and a large part of that is the ability to read and draw the play with your kicking. He doesn't have that ability. The reality is almost all players kicking ability skills are almost as good as they'll get by the time they are drafted, the thing that improves over their career is their decision making.

Masten was the best kick in our side for a very long time but lacked for almost his entire career the footy IQ to take advantage of his footskills and because of making the wrong decisions his kicking at times looked poor, particularly early on in his career. Kicking to a leading target was great but breaking the game open, splitting teams zones and flooding, he just didn't have the ability to make those elite plays due to decision making. If you ever get the chance to ask JK who was the best kick to lead onto you will hear it from the horses mouth.

You've obviously watched a lot (and that's understating it) more juniors/specifically looked at kicking styles beyond the bog standard fan so whilst I like his kicking action/style I do understand that you might be seeing something I'm not and putting his mistakes down to that rather than just things like experience/decision making.

I just reckon there's so many factors with him that suggest the potential for growth as a distributor (unlike Masto who was as you say an awesome kick but the actual output was limited by other factors). Learning the position, confidence to take his time more and not blaze, confidence in his spot in the side, experience, and then going away and Jetta-style practising the hell out of the kicks he's actually trying to pull off - these things might only add 10% each (like you say I doubt you can just practice kicking alone and get more than a little bit better in your 20s) - but added up could jump him up to that next level or two.

Most crucially for me is the rest of the side's improvement in overall ball movement - it's a bit chicken and the egg where great sides all seem to look like above average kicks even though it's probably not entirely true, since they're moving so well for each other and the leads are so good. Bad sides (and we're up there with the worst right now as far as offensive ball movement goes) tend to make everyone look worse.

Jetta as you say was always an excellent kick but jumped up from being a good distributor to far and away the best in the league once all those factors came together (being more comfortable in our side, settled in a position and not thrown wing/fwd as he was early, our side becoming excellent for the time at transition). I reckon if those factors come together for Jones and he puts that same work in he can jump not to best in the comp status, but certainly from exciting but inconsistent to pretty close to elite. This is as a distributor mind you - I reckon distributing is broader than just kicking

 

[Farang83150]

It's all time and pressure. Even in my own experience, you have so much more time behind the ball.

And it is wild how little appreciation there is for Shuey's ability on both feet. He is giving Mitchell/Sidebottom delivery on both feet while exploding from packs.

JK also underrated, but got a bit of recognition towards the end.

Don't think JK was underated

 

[WCE_phil]

You've obviously watched a lot (and that's understating it) more juniors/specifically looked at kicking styles beyond the bog standard fan so whilst I like his kicking action/style I do understand that you might be seeing something I'm not and putting his mistakes down to that rather than just things like experience/decision making.

I just reckon there's so many factors with him that suggest the potential for growth as a distributor (unlike Masto who was as you say an awesome kick but the actual output was limited by other factors). Learning the position, confidence to take his time more and not blaze, confidence in his spot in the side, experience, and then going away and Jetta-style practising the hell out of the kicks he's actually trying to pull off - these things might only add 10% each (like you say I doubt you can just practice kicking alone and get more than a little bit better in your 20s) - but added up could jump him up to that next level or two.

Most crucially for me is the rest of the side's improvement in overall ball movement - it's a bit chicken and the egg where great sides all seem to look like above average kicks even though it's probably not entirely true, since they're moving so well for each other and the leads are so good. Bad sides (and we're up there with the worst right now as far as offensive ball movement goes) tend to make everyone look worse.

Jetta as you say was always an excellent kick but jumped up from being a good distributor to far and away the best in the league once all those factors came together (being more comfortable in our side, settled in a position and not thrown wing/fwd as he was early, our side becoming excellent for the time at transition). I reckon if those factors come together for Jones and he puts that same work in he can jump not to best in the comp status, but certainly from exciting but inconsistent to pretty close to elite. This is as a distributor mind you - I reckon distributing is broader than just kicking

You have in part answered your own question in here. Jetta was always a great field kick but he was playing forward and on the wing. He had less time to dispose and under more pressure. You provide someone with his gifts with extra time and plenty of training and practice as you take an elite field kick and he becomes one of if not the best HB distributor by foot in the league.

I think the biggest thing for jones at the moment playing half back is he has been able to run around on his own and he looks great in games when given time to burst and spread. Now if we are getting dominated through the midfield (very likely in the next few weeks) then you will see more of a reversion to the norm. He is a good but not great player who has faults in his game. If he can tidy up his tackling (he is prone to giving away free kicks imo) and learn to play within his abilities whilst also knowing when to run and gun he will become an established best 22 player and could knock someone like Cole out of the side. Next year we will hopefully be without witherden and hurn after a distinguished career will have retired. That is three potential spots in the starting back 6 available. I think Hough will grab one by the end of next preseason and I see a permanent place for Jones back there. Yeo if his body holds up but isn't up to being a major midfield presence will have a spot back there as well.

FB Duggan Barrass Hough
HB Yeo Mcgovern Jones

I really like that back 6 and then your seventh defender comes down to spreading the load or due to match ups with Cole and Bazzo being next in line as long as Barrass and Gov are fit.

 

[Cornelius Roy]

FB Duggan Barrass Hough
HB Yeo Mcgovern Jones

I really like that back 6 and then your seventh defender comes down to spreading the load or due to match ups with Cole and Bazzo being next in line as long as Barrass and Gov are fit.

Only thing I dislike about this is that I think Hough is too talented to stuck back in a pocket and would prefer his influence felt further up field in the longer term.

 

[WCE_phil]

Only thing I dislike about this is that I think Hough is too talented to stuck back in a pocket and would prefer his influence felt further up field in the longer term.

From what i've seen I think he's a backman. It's just how I have him pegged. Reads the play infinitely better when the ball is coming towards him rather than making the play. I sincerely hope he moves further up the ground but to begin with a back pocket would suit him, then HB once say Yeo retires etc.

 

[THE A5]

It's all time and pressure. Even in my own experience, you have so much more time behind the ball.

And it is wild how little appreciation there is for Shuey's ability on both feet. He is giving Mitchell/Sidebottom delivery on both feet while exploding from packs.

JK also underrated, but got a bit of recognition towards the end.

Thought Nelson was quite good minus the odd shank