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Re: Rok
I am sure Grim's a bloke. Dudley must have got to him he loves talking about body parts
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Ryan O'Keefe Wants to Leave Sydney for Melbourne - All Discussion Here!
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Re: Rok
thats a bit of a silly statement. literally it is true, but in reality it is far from it. are you suggesting that by the end of pre-season, melbourne are equal with geelong? because you know that isnt the case!
You're right there. I thought we would only just scrape into the 8. It turned out a little backwards, where we clung on to stay in the 8.
I'm not denying his obvious talent or his value to the club, but if we are looking to develop young players, he is our best bet for getting something valuable in return. There is no-one else in the Swans team that could get us better trade value.
(And I know you are going to say that is because he is such a good player and we shouldn't get rid of him for that very reason!!!)
I think early picks aren't over-rated at all. If you go back over the draft lists from the last 10 years, the calibre of the players are awesome. The majority of the players at lower picks get to the level of a serviceable player at best. People like ROK are obviously an exception.
I did a little research and found that the following players were all top-10 picks:
Josh Fraser, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Pavlich, Luke McPharlin (1999)
Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke, Alan Didak (2000)
Luke Hodge, Luke Ball, Chris Judd, David Hale, James Bartel (2001)
Brendon Goddard, Daniel Wells, Jarred Brennan, Jarrad McVeigh (2002)
Adam Cooney, Andrew Walker, Brock McLean (2003)
Brett Deledio, Jarryd Roughead, Ryan Griffen, Lance Franklin, Jordan Lewis (2004)
Marc Murphy, Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury (2005)
Bryce Gibbs, Matthew Leuenberger, Joel Selwood (2006)
Matthew Kreuzer, Trent Cotchin, Rhys Palmer (2007)
And I assume that a few from 05-07 will rear their heads a bit later in their career.
thats a bit of a silly statement. literally it is true, but in reality it is far from it. are you suggesting that by the end of pre-season, melbourne are equal with geelong? because you know that isnt the case!
You're right there. I thought we would only just scrape into the 8. It turned out a little backwards, where we clung on to stay in the 8.
I'm not denying his obvious talent or his value to the club, but if we are looking to develop young players, he is our best bet for getting something valuable in return. There is no-one else in the Swans team that could get us better trade value.
(And I know you are going to say that is because he is such a good player and we shouldn't get rid of him for that very reason!!!)
I think early picks aren't over-rated at all. If you go back over the draft lists from the last 10 years, the calibre of the players are awesome. The majority of the players at lower picks get to the level of a serviceable player at best. People like ROK are obviously an exception.
I did a little research and found that the following players were all top-10 picks:
Josh Fraser, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Pavlich, Luke McPharlin (1999)
Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke, Alan Didak (2000)
Luke Hodge, Luke Ball, Chris Judd, David Hale, James Bartel (2001)
Brendon Goddard, Daniel Wells, Jarred Brennan, Jarrad McVeigh (2002)
Adam Cooney, Andrew Walker, Brock McLean (2003)
Brett Deledio, Jarryd Roughead, Ryan Griffen, Lance Franklin, Jordan Lewis (2004)
Marc Murphy, Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury (2005)
Bryce Gibbs, Matthew Leuenberger, Joel Selwood (2006)
Matthew Kreuzer, Trent Cotchin, Rhys Palmer (2007)
And I assume that a few from 05-07 will rear their heads a bit later in their career.
grimlock
Hall of Famer
Re: Rok
That's a very selective list. Here's my own take on it:
Damien Cupido, Danny Roach, Caydn Beetham (1999)
Luke Livingston, Andrew McDougall, Dylan Smith, Laurence Angwin (2000)
Ashley Sampi, Luke Molan, Sam Power (2001)
Tim Walsh, Luke Brennan (2002)
Kepler Bradley, David Trotter, Ryley Dunn (2003)
John Meesen, Jordan Russell, Chris Egan (2004)
Beau Dowler, Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls (2005)
etc.
Sure you get the chance of picking up a future superstar, but it is far from guaranteed.
That's a very selective list. Here's my own take on it:
Damien Cupido, Danny Roach, Caydn Beetham (1999)
Luke Livingston, Andrew McDougall, Dylan Smith, Laurence Angwin (2000)
Ashley Sampi, Luke Molan, Sam Power (2001)
Tim Walsh, Luke Brennan (2002)
Kepler Bradley, David Trotter, Ryley Dunn (2003)
John Meesen, Jordan Russell, Chris Egan (2004)
Beau Dowler, Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls (2005)
etc.
Sure you get the chance of picking up a future superstar, but it is far from guaranteed.
Re: Rok
Thanks Grim. You saved me the trouble of typing such a list.
And even from MC's list, not all those players are clearly better / more valuable than ROK.
Pavlich, Riewoldt, Hodge, Judd, Bartel, Roughhead and Franklin I will concede (and Roughhead more for his size advantage that makes him able to play true key position). There are a few others who'd I put on a similar level (eg Didak) and a few of the younger brigade who aren't yet done with their development and look probable / likely (or in the case of Selwood, almost certain) to become better / more valuable. But give me ROK any day over Fraser, Kossie, Wells, Brennan, Walker or McLean, to name just a few (and I have steered away from the younger players on that list). They're all capable of odd fantastic games but are far less consistent and physically durable than O'Keefe has been.
I definitely think that high draft picks are over-rated. Of our best dozen or so players (all of whom contributed to the 2005-6 period of success) include two rookie listed players, a pre-season draft freebie, a pick 60 something, two picks 40 something and a pick 50 something. And then add in other significant contributors over that period who are at the next level down (or no longer at the club) like Monty and Schneider.
Yes, clubs want the chance to pick early but the chances of getting a Franklin, Judd or Hodge are very very long, and even the chances of getting a Cooney or Griffen are no higher than the chances of getting a Sampi or Egan. And most of those very very good players have come with top 5 picks, which we'd be unlikely to get for ROK. I suspect a pick in the 6-15 range is more feasuble, were he to be traded.
Thanks Grim. You saved me the trouble of typing such a list.
And even from MC's list, not all those players are clearly better / more valuable than ROK.
Pavlich, Riewoldt, Hodge, Judd, Bartel, Roughhead and Franklin I will concede (and Roughhead more for his size advantage that makes him able to play true key position). There are a few others who'd I put on a similar level (eg Didak) and a few of the younger brigade who aren't yet done with their development and look probable / likely (or in the case of Selwood, almost certain) to become better / more valuable. But give me ROK any day over Fraser, Kossie, Wells, Brennan, Walker or McLean, to name just a few (and I have steered away from the younger players on that list). They're all capable of odd fantastic games but are far less consistent and physically durable than O'Keefe has been.
I definitely think that high draft picks are over-rated. Of our best dozen or so players (all of whom contributed to the 2005-6 period of success) include two rookie listed players, a pre-season draft freebie, a pick 60 something, two picks 40 something and a pick 50 something. And then add in other significant contributors over that period who are at the next level down (or no longer at the club) like Monty and Schneider.
Yes, clubs want the chance to pick early but the chances of getting a Franklin, Judd or Hodge are very very long, and even the chances of getting a Cooney or Griffen are no higher than the chances of getting a Sampi or Egan. And most of those very very good players have come with top 5 picks, which we'd be unlikely to get for ROK. I suspect a pick in the 6-15 range is more feasuble, were he to be traded.
Re: Rok
of course it was a selective list. i was pointing out players that are better than the majority of our current playing list (well, who in my opinion are better!).
if you compare the players in top 10 to the players in 11-20, you will see a marked difference in quality. from top 10 to players in 21-40, you will see an even greater difference.
obviously, there are always poor decisions made and guys that are top 10 picks don't develop as expected, but you have much more chance of getting a better player as you get a higher pick.
hell. teams tank to get the high picks and you're trying to say that its a waste of time.
BUT back to the issue at hand: im not saying i want ROK traded, but all i am suggesting is that ROK is our best chance at the trade table to get something worthwhile. the only other bargainable player at this stage would probably be mcveigh, but im pretty sure he is still contracted.
of course it was a selective list. i was pointing out players that are better than the majority of our current playing list (well, who in my opinion are better!).
if you compare the players in top 10 to the players in 11-20, you will see a marked difference in quality. from top 10 to players in 21-40, you will see an even greater difference.
obviously, there are always poor decisions made and guys that are top 10 picks don't develop as expected, but you have much more chance of getting a better player as you get a higher pick.
hell. teams tank to get the high picks and you're trying to say that its a waste of time.
BUT back to the issue at hand: im not saying i want ROK traded, but all i am suggesting is that ROK is our best chance at the trade table to get something worthwhile. the only other bargainable player at this stage would probably be mcveigh, but im pretty sure he is still contracted.
Re: Rok
Exactly my point! You can't ASSUME anything in this game!
For your benefit & information I have highlighted how many of those top ten picks have a p'ship around their neck!!
Only 3 have! 2 from 1 team! Geelong.........a team that didn't actually hit the bottom. Much like the Swans!
Sure! A few might more might have one around their neck by this w/end (but history says they won't) and some of them were only recently drafted but the bulk of them are no where nearer a p'ship then any of the Swans players. That is of course, if we keep our key players (ROK) together.
You see, many of these draft picks were obtained by clubs that finished on the bottom 3 or 4 years in a row. That is pitiful mediocrity. Some clubs are happy to do it.
YOU DON'T WIN A FLAG WITH MEDIOCRITY!!
Should the Hawks miss the flag this year, then they are NO CLOSER to winning one next year then we are.
And Melbourne are one of those pitiful clubs that will try & achieve a p'ship (& fail) by finishing bottom 3 or 4 years in a row.
Mister.................................I am a paid up member of the Sydney Swans. I don't want bottom for 3 or 4 years. I like the way we've gone about it under Eade & Roos.
It works! 3 GFs in 13 years, 1 prelim, finals every year except 1.
The very players we did pick up with very early picks are Rocca & Shannon Grant.......................mmmmmm Where'd they go? I blinked for a second & I missed them.
Yep! That's sure to work with us. How in the hell are we going to get THE BEST youngster to stay long term with us if he was not from NSW?
The odds would be high that if we picked up a top Victorian youngster with picks 1, 2, or 3, as soon as his first contract is up he would want to go back home to mum & dad!
Nah......................I'm through with that scenario as a paid up member.
Just keep the stars we've got, unless they have let the club down with poor decisions...................Barry Hall & Davis!!!
Sign ROK up now! Give some others a pay cut...............that's how you win a flag!!
Not by trading an ROK & picking up a Kerr with the pick he gets you!
Cheers!
Exactly my point! You can't ASSUME anything in this game!
For your benefit & information I have highlighted how many of those top ten picks have a p'ship around their neck!!
Only 3 have! 2 from 1 team! Geelong.........a team that didn't actually hit the bottom. Much like the Swans!
Sure! A few might more might have one around their neck by this w/end (but history says they won't) and some of them were only recently drafted but the bulk of them are no where nearer a p'ship then any of the Swans players. That is of course, if we keep our key players (ROK) together.
You see, many of these draft picks were obtained by clubs that finished on the bottom 3 or 4 years in a row. That is pitiful mediocrity. Some clubs are happy to do it.
YOU DON'T WIN A FLAG WITH MEDIOCRITY!!
Should the Hawks miss the flag this year, then they are NO CLOSER to winning one next year then we are.
And Melbourne are one of those pitiful clubs that will try & achieve a p'ship (& fail) by finishing bottom 3 or 4 years in a row.
Mister.................................I am a paid up member of the Sydney Swans. I don't want bottom for 3 or 4 years. I like the way we've gone about it under Eade & Roos.
It works! 3 GFs in 13 years, 1 prelim, finals every year except 1.
The very players we did pick up with very early picks are Rocca & Shannon Grant.......................mmmmmm Where'd they go? I blinked for a second & I missed them.
Yep! That's sure to work with us. How in the hell are we going to get THE BEST youngster to stay long term with us if he was not from NSW?
The odds would be high that if we picked up a top Victorian youngster with picks 1, 2, or 3, as soon as his first contract is up he would want to go back home to mum & dad!
Nah......................I'm through with that scenario as a paid up member.
Just keep the stars we've got, unless they have let the club down with poor decisions...................Barry Hall & Davis!!!
Sign ROK up now! Give some others a pay cut...............that's how you win a flag!!
Not by trading an ROK & picking up a Kerr with the pick he gets you!
Cheers!
TheMase
Brownlow Medallist
Re: Rok
love him , he's hardworking and dedicated to the team but seldom hurts he opposition therefore we should trade him but we should get no less than kerr in his place
love him , he's hardworking and dedicated to the team but seldom hurts he opposition therefore we should trade him but we should get no less than kerr in his place
- Banned
- #34
Re: Rok
I think the argument is that while he is irreplaceable, his gap isn't an unfillable hole ... it would just be filled with a different style of player altogether, rather than another hit-up lead-to-the-wing player (but to be honest, there are others in the comp that play like that).
I think the argument is that while he is irreplaceable, his gap isn't an unfillable hole ... it would just be filled with a different style of player altogether, rather than another hit-up lead-to-the-wing player (but to be honest, there are others in the comp that play like that).
Re: Rok
No thanks i was there, sure he was great as he was against north in the final. but the matches when he dominates and hurts the opposition by kicking goals are too far apart for my liking. again I love him as a player but he's more of a strong bodied midfielder than a punishing forward.
No thanks i was there, sure he was great as he was against north in the final. but the matches when he dominates and hurts the opposition by kicking goals are too far apart for my liking. again I love him as a player but he's more of a strong bodied midfielder than a punishing forward.
Re: Rok
Agree that he's really more of a midfielder than a forward - I think he's a classic old-fashioned wingman - but that doesn't mean he doesn't hurt the opposiiton, or that he's never so dominant that he's the difference between us winning and losing.
Take the North final. We had lots of super players in that second half and I don't think ROK was the absolute best. But arguably it was three or four movements created by him - strong midfield marks and quick play-ons to Hall one-out - that really cracked the game open and broke the Kangas' resistance.
Or who can forget the 2005 PF against the Saints. He was outstanding that night. "How that that man be on his own?"
Agree that he's really more of a midfielder than a forward - I think he's a classic old-fashioned wingman - but that doesn't mean he doesn't hurt the opposiiton, or that he's never so dominant that he's the difference between us winning and losing.
Take the North final. We had lots of super players in that second half and I don't think ROK was the absolute best. But arguably it was three or four movements created by him - strong midfield marks and quick play-ons to Hall one-out - that really cracked the game open and broke the Kangas' resistance.
Or who can forget the 2005 PF against the Saints. He was outstanding that night. "How that that man be on his own?"
SM
Bigfooty Legend
Re: Rok
I liked him back in his 2005 days and that North Final. Despite his big motor he's such a good mark that I'd love to see him constantly playing in the forward line.
I liked him back in his 2005 days and that North Final. Despite his big motor he's such a good mark that I'd love to see him constantly playing in the forward line.
- Banned
- #41
Re: Rok
I think we should trade him too, he will only get into the space in front of Grundy, and that would be a disaster.
I think we should trade him too, he will only get into the space in front of Grundy, and that would be a disaster.
Lakeside Legacy
Debutant
Re: Rok
Take the North final. We had lots of super players in that second half and I don't think ROK was the absolute best. But arguably it was three or four movements created by him - strong midfield marks and quick play-ons to Hall one-out - that really cracked the game open and broke the Kangas' resistance.
Or who can forget the 2005 PF against the Saints. He was outstanding that night. "How can that man be on his own?"[/quote]
Spot On Liz, some of our supporters have very short memories.
ROK is an "untouchable" IMO & unlike Brown c/o Brisbane, ROK is now trying to maximise his next contract & market value potential out-of-season !!! God help us, ROK has every right to have a fair crack at the alleged $300 - $400K we IMO threw away keeping Spida !!!
We need to sign ROK sooner rather than later and on his terms provided he wants to remain in Sydney?? If ROK harbours an intention to come back to Melbourne we then need to trade wisely with a view of picking up early picks to ensure we have a crack at an established player of the calibre of Kerr if available, as an option, otherwise IMO we use what early picks we have to add KPP players to our existing stocks of young players like Bird, Vespremi, Jack, Moore, Currie, Orreal, Murphy, Schmidt ....
IMO its not all doom and gloom from here on, A fully fit Adam Goodes hopefully minus O.P. will certainly add some bite to our mid-field !!!
Take the North final. We had lots of super players in that second half and I don't think ROK was the absolute best. But arguably it was three or four movements created by him - strong midfield marks and quick play-ons to Hall one-out - that really cracked the game open and broke the Kangas' resistance.
Or who can forget the 2005 PF against the Saints. He was outstanding that night. "How can that man be on his own?"[/quote]
Spot On Liz, some of our supporters have very short memories.
ROK is an "untouchable" IMO & unlike Brown c/o Brisbane, ROK is now trying to maximise his next contract & market value potential out-of-season !!! God help us, ROK has every right to have a fair crack at the alleged $300 - $400K we IMO threw away keeping Spida !!!
We need to sign ROK sooner rather than later and on his terms provided he wants to remain in Sydney?? If ROK harbours an intention to come back to Melbourne we then need to trade wisely with a view of picking up early picks to ensure we have a crack at an established player of the calibre of Kerr if available, as an option, otherwise IMO we use what early picks we have to add KPP players to our existing stocks of young players like Bird, Vespremi, Jack, Moore, Currie, Orreal, Murphy, Schmidt ....
IMO its not all doom and gloom from here on, A fully fit Adam Goodes hopefully minus O.P. will certainly add some bite to our mid-field !!!
Re: Rok
Spot On Liz, some of our supporters have very short memories.
ROK is an "untouchable" IMO & unlike Brown c/o Brisbane, ROK is now trying to maximise his next contract & market value potential out-of-season !!! God help us, ROK has every right to have a fair crack at the alleged $300 - $400K we IMO threw away keeping Spida !!!
We need to sign ROK sooner rather than later and on his terms provided he wants to remain in Sydney?? If ROK harbours an intention to come back to Melbourne we then need to trade wisely with a view of picking up early picks to ensure we have a crack at an established player of the calibre of Kerr if available, as an option, otherwise IMO we use what early picks we have to add KPP players to our existing stocks of young players like Bird, Vespremi, Jack, Moore, Currie, Orreal, Murphy, Schmidt ....
IMO its not all doom and gloom from here on, A fully fit Adam Goodes hopefully minus O.P. will certainly add some bite to our mid-field !!![/quote]
We'll finish above the Hawks next year!
Provided we keep ROK & Hall!!
Just get 'em fit Roosy! This is where we have really fallen behind. It seems with Missen going, our injury 'luck' has disappeared with him.
Stick with us guys! We weren't as far off the pack as many would like to think. Not much went our way, yet we finish 5th on the ladder!!
Go figure!
Keep the faith!
Spot On Liz, some of our supporters have very short memories.
ROK is an "untouchable" IMO & unlike Brown c/o Brisbane, ROK is now trying to maximise his next contract & market value potential out-of-season !!! God help us, ROK has every right to have a fair crack at the alleged $300 - $400K we IMO threw away keeping Spida !!!
We need to sign ROK sooner rather than later and on his terms provided he wants to remain in Sydney?? If ROK harbours an intention to come back to Melbourne we then need to trade wisely with a view of picking up early picks to ensure we have a crack at an established player of the calibre of Kerr if available, as an option, otherwise IMO we use what early picks we have to add KPP players to our existing stocks of young players like Bird, Vespremi, Jack, Moore, Currie, Orreal, Murphy, Schmidt ....
IMO its not all doom and gloom from here on, A fully fit Adam Goodes hopefully minus O.P. will certainly add some bite to our mid-field !!![/quote]
We'll finish above the Hawks next year!
Provided we keep ROK & Hall!!
Just get 'em fit Roosy! This is where we have really fallen behind. It seems with Missen going, our injury 'luck' has disappeared with him.
Stick with us guys! We weren't as far off the pack as many would like to think. Not much went our way, yet we finish 5th on the ladder!!
Go figure!
Keep the faith!
Re: Rok
Not sure if this is anything of value got it from a North supporter on their board.
I dont mean to jump on my high horse or anything but i am actually good mates with a cousin of Ryan O'keefe's. My mate informed me that these rumors are only that and he could not be happier in Sydney with his family.
Not sure if this is anything of value got it from a North supporter on their board.
I dont mean to jump on my high horse or anything but i am actually good mates with a cousin of Ryan O'keefe's. My mate informed me that these rumors are only that and he could not be happier in Sydney with his family.
- Banned
- #45
grimlock
Hall of Famer
Re: Rok
Why is that rumour more believable than the ones that he is going back to Melbourne? I wouldn't start celebrating until he signs the contract.
Why is that rumour more believable than the ones that he is going back to Melbourne? I wouldn't start celebrating until he signs the contract.
- Banned
- #47
grimlock
Hall of Famer
- Banned
- #50
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