Mega Thread Senior Coach Discussion - Neeld v the alternatives

[guitarded]

It has to be Roos. It doesn't matter how, it just has to be.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

It has to be Roos. It doesn't matter how, it just has to be.

It wont be - we'd have a shot at Williams though.

But we'd need to get into him early - that gives him time to find a coaching group and it also means we get in before anyone else does.

 

[Major Colvin]

Like the Ayres idea.

Would try and get Choco as coach, Clarkson isn't going to go from Premiership quality team to a rabble club.

You really need someone who is going to develop the kids not a match day coach.

I'd go for something like this

- hardened experienced coach good with kids - choco
- hardened experienced coach as assistant - ayres
- well known club legend neitz/viney/schwarz types as assistant
- recent multiple premiership player someone from brisbane or geelong premiership eras(lingy)

Ayres...Williams...are you people serious?

Ayres wrecked Geelong in his five years there. His time at Adelaide OK without being great, could be argued he recruited poorly there too and his hallmark of both coaching tenures was an inability to develop or play young players.

Choco - much the same story. Yes, a premiership coach. But with a poor conversion. Rigid, inflexible - he drove Port Adelaide into the ground, a talented team that ended up playing like confused pea-hearts. He's the last person we need.

We've tried the patient developmental 'losing is good experience' coach. Didn't work, players getting too much leeway apparently. So then we hire a militant, hard-arse take no prisoners coach. Completely disenfrachises half the list. Ends up going back in his shell and is now more timid than the players for God's sake. We need a goddamn proven tactician who can instill some confidence back into these players. For the life of me I can't think of a suitable candidate for a job of this magnitude.

 

[muttonchops]

Summary - Achieved nothing in five seasons at Geelong ... achieved nothing in four seasons at Adelaide.

Gary Ayres set our club back nearly a decade. He is despised by most Cat fans especially by the way he treated many legends of our club.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Choco - much the same story. Yes, a premiership coach. But with a poor conversion. Rigid, inflexible - he drove Port Adelaide into the ground, a talented team that ended up playing like confused pea-hearts. He's the last person we need.

We've tried the patient developmental 'losing is good experience' coach. Didn't work, players getting too much leeway apparently. So then we hire a militant, hard-arse take no prisoners coach. Completely disenfrachises half the list. Ends up going back in his shell and is now more timid than the players for God's sake. We need a goddamn proven tactician who can instill some confidence back into these players. For the life of me I can't think of a suitable candidate for a job of this magnitude.

What are you on about? Mark Williams can give a spray but apparently he worked very well with his players - Proven premiership coach and tactician who really had a team with no superstars bar Tredrea and Wanganeen.

Williams coached for 12 years at Port - was minor premier three times (in a row), won the 2004 flag and made another GF in 2007 (where his mob were destroyed). Finished out of the top eight five times (with three being in his last few years at the club and mostly narrowly)

That's a fantastic record.

 

[Major Colvin]

What are you on about? Mark Williams can give a spray but apparently he worked very well with his players - Proven premiership coach and tactician who really had a team with no superstars bar Tredrea and Wanganeen.

Williams coached for 12 years at Port - was minor premier three times (in a row), won the 2004 flag and made another GF in 2007 (where his mob were destroyed). Finished out of the top eight five times (with three being in his last few years at the club and mostly narrowly)

That's a fantastic record.

My take is much different. He took over a team loaded with talent and could/should have been one of the powerhouse dynasties of the AFL. Instead that mantle went to Brisbane. That team was loaded with stars - particularly in the midfield. James, Burgoynes, Pickett, - talls and KPP coming out their backside. So as a tactician he was not great I feel and was found wanting often because he could not change up. His last few years at Port were disastrous. His record is good in paper, but glosses over his deficiencies.

Not saying he's a bad coach and I'd much prefer him in the box to Neeld. But for the kind of ground-up re-assembly of our bomb site, we're going to need someone a bit more capable to cope in a crisis and be able to work with much less. As I say, I'm at a loss as to who. I look at what Eade did at the Bulldogs and think we could do worse. Obviously Roos but he would not risk tarnishing his reputation with us.

 

[cynical]

Ayres...Williams...are you people serious?

Ayres wrecked Geelong in his five years there. His time at Adelaide OK without being great, could be argued he recruited poorly there too and his hallmark of both coaching tenures was an inability to develop or play young players.

Choco - much the same story. Yes, a premiership coach. But with a poor conversion. Rigid, inflexible - he drove Port Adelaide into the ground, a talented team that ended up playing like confused pea-hearts. He's the last person we need.

We've tried the patient developmental 'losing is good experience' coach. Didn't work, players getting too much leeway apparently. So then we hire a militant, hard-arse take no prisoners coach. Completely disenfrachises half the list. Ends up going back in his shell and is now more timid than the players for God's sake. We need a goddamn proven tactician who can instill some confidence back into these players. For the life of me I can't think of a suitable candidate for a job of this magnitude.

Ayres and Choco are people who have been involved in AFL for 40+ years and have a fair amount of respect, don't judge them on what they did 10 or 20 years ago.

You are trying to lift yourself off the bottom and keep players from leaving, you need experience and guys who demand respect. Those guys are probably available as opposed to pie in the sky stuff like roos and clarkson.

You aren't getting a high value coach to Melbourne because your list, culture and leadership is 20+ years from a flag. A good tactician needs cattle to work with they turn a good team into a flag contender. Ross Lyon went to Freo because they have money and a damn good list, melbourne have neither.

 

[Major Colvin]

Ayres and Choco are people who have been involved in AFL for 40+ years and have a fair amount of respect, don't judge them on what they did 10 or 20 years ago.

You are trying to lift yourself off the bottom and keep players from leaving, you need experience and guys who demand respect. Those guys are probably available as opposed to pie in the sky stuff like roos and clarkson.

You aren't getting a high value coach to Melbourne because your list, culture and leadership is 20+ years from a flag. A good tactician needs cattle to work with they turn a good team into a flag contender. Ross Lyon went to Freo because they have money and a damn good list, melbourne have neither.

No doubting the enormity of the task ahead but that is ridiculous. As pessimistic as I am about the future even I know things can turn around much quicker than that. Would you honestly have thought at the end of 2006 Geelong would produce one of the teams of the century the very next year?

 

[RedLegs#5]

Ayres and Choco are people who have been involved in AFL for 40+ years and have a fair amount of respect, don't judge them on what they did 10 or 20 years ago.

You are trying to lift yourself off the bottom and keep players from leaving, you need experience and guys who demand respect. Those guys are probably available as opposed to pie in the sky stuff like roos and clarkson.

You aren't getting a high value coach to Melbourne because your list, culture and leadership is 20+ years from a flag. A good tactician needs cattle to work with they turn a good team into a flag contender. Ross Lyon went to Freo because they have money and a damn good list, melbourne have neither.

20 + years? Can someone ban this troll. Have you ever played football? Seriously...just...what? Is that you Ayres?

Our full list (if available) is no where near as bad as people think. They obviously need time to meld, but in spite of that, they should be performing much better than they are.

Melbourne should throw everything they have at Clarkson and Roos. If they're going to get rid of Neeld, they cannot afford to go down the inexperienced route again. They can't afford to get it wrong full stop.

The task ahead isn't easy, but it isn't impossible either. Plus the potential rewards are legendary.

 

[cynical]

No doubting the enormity of the task ahead but that is ridiculous. As pessimistic as I am about the future even I know things can turn around much quicker than that. Would you honestly have thought at the end of 2006 Geelong would produce one of the teams of the century the very next year?

With the expansion clubs it's harder for clubs to develop with draft picks alone. Free Agency also makes it harder, good players want to win flags at the end of their career not spoons.

Geelong were always on the rise, they had one bad year in 2006. Still had quality experienced leaders like King, Riccardi, Milburn etc and a lot of the kids were quality 100 game players at that stage. Off field Geelong was also really good with Brian Cook.

Melbourne have zero leadership onfield.
Melbourne have zero leadership off-field.
Melbourne have an extremely weak list.

It is highly unlikely that you can turn it around in under 10 years let alone 20. The quality clubs like Pies, Geelong, WCE, Sydney, Adelaide just do things so much better.

You need to build up your leadership group and culture over a few generations of players before you even think of winning a flag.

 

[Major Colvin]

With the expansion clubs it's harder for clubs to develop with draft picks alone. Free Agency also makes it harder, good players want to win flags at the end of their career not spoons.

Geelong were always on the rise, they had one bad year in 2006. Still had quality experienced leaders like King, Riccardi, Milburn etc and a lot of the kids were quality 100 game players at that stage. Off field Geelong was also really good with Brian Cook.

Melbourne have zero leadership onfield.
Melbourne have zero leadership off-field.
Melbourne have an extremely weak list.

It is highly unlikely that you can turn it around in under 10 years let alone 20. The quality clubs like Pies, Geelong, WCE, Sydney, Adelaide just do things so much better.

You need to build up your leadership group and culture over a few generations of players before you even think of winning a flag.

Even with the expansion clubs, things can turn much quicker than what you're saying. St. Kilda at the end of 2000, Freo 2001, Hawthorn at the end of 2004 - teams have gone from pathetic to very good in just a few short years. I' expect it will take us longer, we're coming from further back. But FFS 20 years? There would've been two generations of players gone through the club by then, you can't possibly predict fortunes of a club 5 years from now let alone 20.

As for culture of club, obviously ours is toxic. But it doesn't take long for things to change, as you should recognise from your own club and thier flag drought (always loaded with talent but with definite 'culture' problems.)

Clubs like Pies, Cats, Swans havent always done things better - and what a ridiculous thing to say. Culture and fortunes of clubs are always cyclical. Noone's good forever and noone's terrible forever.

Quite frankly your views are arrogant and typical of Geelong supporters now with short memories who talk like they've got three premiership medallions in their own sock drawer.

 

[LeverPuller]

Choco ruined Port? A Prem, a GF, couple of minor prems and then leaves after nearly a decade? Please.

 

[Major Colvin]

Choco ruined Port? A Prem, a GF, couple of minor prems and then leaves after nearly a decade? Please.

How about reading what I wrote

 

[cynical]

Even with the expansion clubs, things can turn much quicker than what you're saying. St. Kilda at the end of 2000, Freo 2001, Hawthorn at the end of 2004 - teams have gone from pathetic to very good in just a few short years. I' expect it will take us longer, we're coming from further back. But FFS 20 years? There would've been two generations of players gone through the club by then, you can't possibly predict fortunes of a club 5 years from now let alone 20.

As for culture of club, obviously ours is toxic. But it doesn't take long for things to change, as you should recognise from your own club and thier flag drought (always loaded with talent but with definite 'culture' problems.)

Clubs like Pies, Cats, Swans havent always done things better - and what a ridiculous thing to say. Culture and fortunes of clubs are always cyclical. Noone's good forever and noone's terrible forever.

Quite frankly your views are arrogant and typical of Geelong supporters now with short memories who talk like they've got three premiership medallions in their own sock drawer.

Those teams you mention were in much better positions than Melbourne are now they were just in a cycle, Melbourne have been down for 8 years or so? and have lost all leaders at the club. They are very poor off-field as well.

There is a big difference between a competitive bottom club like the Bulldogs and Melbourne at the moment. The Bulldogs still have good culture they have aging players who may not be champions of the game but are very good players. They also have guys in their mid 20's who are good experienced players.

Melbourne just don't have that and need to rebuild that first.

Maybe 20 years is a bit pessimistic but you need to go through another generation of players at least.

You might think Geelong supporters are arrogant but we had our time of failures in the 90's and early 2000's, not close to Melbourne but losing grand finals isn't fun.

 

[SPC 98]

We need some skilled experienced Assistant Coaches.. Add a Ratten, Goodwin and an Eade to the mix with Neeld when he started then things would be a lot different.

Neeld should never have turned the club on it's head, it should have been slow, controlled progressive changes. IMO, he was inexperienced and brought in the wrong team to help him.

Now we need a figure head coach with a team of highly skilled and experience tacticians to sort out our game-plan, our list and the structures which we move forward with.

I am one of the few people, who actually think with the right environment, that this team can move forward quite quickly.

 

[Captain Jack]

I am one of the few people, who actually think with the right environment, that this team can move forward quite quickly.

I agree, I think there's a bit to work with on the playing list, it's just the rest of the club that needs an overhaul. That said, when three of our best players leave at the end of the year the list will look far worse than it does now.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Yeah, if we fix the midfield we will become competitive very quickly.

 

[raven echo]

I like Leigh Brown but how he was made assistant coach in charge of forwards right after he retired is ridiculous. Needed a more proven assistant there.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

I like Leigh Brown but how he was made assistant coach in charge of forwards right after he retired is ridiculous. Needed a more proven assistant there.

Maybe, I think a range of assistants (experience wise) works well - I do think that with Neeld being a first time coach he should have surrounded himself with experience rather then giving himself a job of educating the player as well as educating a few coaches (Brown and all the line coaches)

 

[RedLegs#5]

Quite frankly your views are arrogant and typical of Geelong supporters now with short memories who talk like they've got three premiership medallions in their own sock drawer.

Can this be made into a bumper sticker?

 

[00Stinger]

I would look at the following list in order.
Roos, Worsfold & Clarkson ( Put them together as I figure all three would be a long shot)
Ratten- Harshly treated at Carlton IMO. Plus his one years as a midfield coach at MFC, we had the best midfield can remember us having for a long time.
Eade- Shown at the Bulldogs and Sydney that he can get teams up.
Williams- Premiership coach who gets great endorsements. My concern is that he couldn't turn PA around
Ayres- His AFL record is pretty good and he looks to have work on his defeciances at VFL level

Gary Ayres set our club back nearly a decade. He is despised by most Cat fans especially by the way he treated many legends of our club.

Well considering Bailey and Neeld has pissed all of those layers at Melbourne off, that shouldn't be a problem

Yeah, if we fix the midfield we will become competitive very quickly.

This is why I am warming more and more to Ratten. Has proven he can coach midfilds, just no where else. Our backline & forwardline asr ok, but we need massive improvement in the middle

 

[CWaffles]

Those teams you mention were in much better positions than Melbourne are now they were just in a cycle, Melbourne have been down for 8 years or so? and have lost all leaders at the club. They are very poor off-field as well.

There is a big difference between a competitive bottom club like the Bulldogs and Melbourne at the moment. The Bulldogs still have good culture they have aging players who may not be champions of the game but are very good players. They also have guys in their mid 20's who are good experienced players.

Melbourne just don't have that and need to rebuild that first.

Maybe 20 years is a bit pessimistic but you need to go through another generation of players at least.

You might think Geelong supporters are arrogant but we had our time of failures in the 90's and early 2000's, not close to Melbourne but losing grand finals isn't fun.

The weed in Perth must be amazing!

 

[GHardeman]

I agree, I think there's a bit to work with on the playing list, it's just the rest of the club that needs an overhaul. That said, when three of our best players leave at the end of the year the list will look far worse than it does now.

This is the critical issue, making sure the club is harmonious. That it is a club where footballers, fans and sponsors want to be. The symptoms of the toxic environment are simple. No-one wants anything to do with the MFC. Fix that problem first. When Hinkley came to Port (and they might only win five games but it was a breath of fresh air) he seemed to say how can I make these people better. Neeld's view is how can we get better by getting rid of people. The problem is that he is getting rid of players and supporters and sponsors and kids.

 

[maxmustard]

First choice guys are Roos, Worsfold and ???? Cant see either of them doing it. Williams, Eade and Ratten are the next level I guess. Would probably do it but not inspiring appointments. Honestly if we're going to think about Ayres we may as well just give Daniher another go (jokes, sorta). I don't really see a way forward with this outside Williams Eade or Ratten.

 

[hoddo]

Ratten- Harshly treated at Carlton IMO. Plus his one years as a midfield coach at MFC, we had the best midfield can remember us having for a long time.

Completely agree. Ratten had Carlton Premiership favourites last season before injuries hit and ruined its season. Combine that with his good record when coaching our midfield and the fact that he is available and almost certainly still eager to coach and he seems by far the best choice.

Yes it would be nice to think we could entice Roos out of retirement or steal Clarkson from Hawthorn but neither of those things seem at all likely. There would be more chance of convincing Matthews to make a comeback to coaching and that's not going to happen either.

It's now reached the stage that Neeld must go and go quickly. His replacement can't be a caretaker coach, it has to be a permanent appointment. It needs to be someone who takes up the role immediately and uses the rest of the season to restore the faith of the playing group. Otherwise we are going to see another mass exodus at the end of the season and we simply can't afford to lose players the calibre of Frawley, Watts and Sylvia and God knows who else.

I'm assuming Ratten could take up the position straight away but if he can't or won't then Williams would be the other option. Despite some strangely negative interpretations of his Port Adelaide record appearing in this thread I see him as a coach who had great success with what was a fairly ordinary group of players. Yes, there were some champions, but that can be said of most of the top teams at any given time and compared to the other top teams of that era Port was nothing special ... but their record under Williams was excellent.

So get Ratten. If we can't get him get Williams. But, above all, get rid of Neeld now before he can harm the club further.