St Kilda - surely its rebuild mode

[Blue1980]

It is only round 1 and they lost narrowly, but I liked the article in the age today, basically saying they need to think creatively to rejuvenate their list, and despite the thoughts/hopes of many senior players at St Kilda, the premiership window is definitely done.

Finey has said as much tonight on SEN, I am just curious to what people think about St Kilda, should they just rebuild or try and hang on?

Thoughts?

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Too early to make that call.

Geelong, Collingwood lost too. Seasons not over yet.

 

[Necromancer Beth]

Not yet, but if they end up 1-4 or there season looks shot early on, time to start playing young players in place of some senior players. Still have a few players agead 28+ who have trade value as well. Might have to make a few big calls in the off-season on them if things go pear shaped.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Rebuild mode started when Lyon quit.

It will take time but they had a few youngsters out there today plus some longer termers like Geary Steven Armitage and Stanley that Lyon didnt always give opportunities to.

Theres a few same-old-same old names that will get turned over in time....Blake Dempster Kozi Jones Ray etc....when there are young players ready.

 

[Burningleviathan]

Got off to a slow start last year as well. Give it a few weeks to see if things improve first. Should be able to iron out some kinks next week against the GC.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

Rebuild mode started when Lyon quit.

It will take time but they had a few youngsters out there today plus some longer termers like Geary Steven Armitage and Stanley that Lyon didnt always give opportunities to.

Theres a few same-old-same old names that will get turned over in time....Blake Dempster Kozi Jones Ray etc....when there are young players ready.

Of those four, the only one I would like to see as a regular is Stanley because he hasn't been tried long enough yet. Geary, Steven and Armitage have all played great games for us and done great things but they lack consistency.

We need to find more consistent players.

With our draw, we now have to win 12 games out of 21 to make finals this year or we fail - today against the (ALMOST) reigning wooden spooners we dropped short by a goal at a ground we SUCK at.

What does that say? That I think its about 50/50 at this stage. If St Kilda are to be ANY chance of playing footy we have to make a statement in the next couple of weeks against Gold Coast and fellow strugglers the Bulldogs.

If not, our match the following week against Freo will be a very disappointing one as our streak against Freo will come to an end in a very dissatisfying fashion.

EDIT - They didn't actually WIN the wooden spoon

 

[sainter35]

Reality is we are not challenging for flag - we simply carry to many suspect ball users.

Watch Hawks/Pies the other night and you see the in close ball handling that only our top core posess...the rest (Polo, Ray, Peake, Jones, Blake, Dempster etc) turn it over. A lot.

Our kids skill level is quite good - I can see already Pelchen likes foot skills with some speed (Milera was class today and BOG for Sandy last week by a mile), Sippos, Ledger, Cripps, Ross, will all have much improved skill on the above named....but they are young and a while away.

I hate to admit it but I think time/injury has caught Riewoldt - he simply cant carry us anymore. He'll still be a great player and on his day lash out....but they'll be less as happens to CHF's who play 10+ years.

Watters has a tough job - as stated today in the Age, on games played we have blooded less kids than any other side since 2009 - even Pies have blooded much more. Thats a Lyon legacy we live with (had we jagged a flag -who cares....but we didnt and played Eddy's, Mqualters etc who also arent up to it).

Its not all doom and gloom as Sydney and Cats show - total bottom outs arent always a necessity....but it may mean some wheeling and dealing to snare top level draft picks come seasons end....at least we still have value to offer....

 

[Blue1980]

They could easily be 2-1 going into the Freo game, with games against GC and WB coming up. Though if they lose to the Doggies the alarm bells will really be ringing.

There are some good young ones in their side, but not enough to form the basis of an up and coming side.

It happens to all sides, with the draft you need to go down before you come up again. St Kilda have done well to be up for 8 years (only 1 finals miss). I also remember Carlton were in a much worse position in 2002 (even before the salary cap issues) with our list, and how when hope of a flag is gone, a lot of players who were firing only 12 months before are suddenly going through the motions.

 

[Spitta09]

Too early to make that call.

Geelong, Collingwood lost too. Seasons not over yet.

Season is over.. they could still make the 8 but what is the point of just tracking along and making the 8 for the sake of it. Time for them to look to the future and clear out some of their older brigade who are well and truly past it.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Though if they lose to the Doggies the alarm bells will really be ringing.

Both teams are on the same path, ie well past their best after going deep into September for a few years on end.

 

[Blue1980]

Reality is we are not challenging for flag - we simply carry to many suspect ball users.

Watch Hawks/Pies the other night and you see the in close ball handling that only our top core posess...the rest (Polo, Ray, Peake, Jones, Blake, Dempster etc) turn it over. A lot.

Our kids skill level is quite good - I can see already Pelchen likes foot skills with some speed (Milera was class today and BOG for Sandy last week by a mile), Sippos, Ledger, Cripps, Ross, will all have much improved skill on the above named....but they are young and a while away.

I hate to admit it but I think time/injury has caught Riewoldt - he simply cant carry us anymore. He'll still be a great player and on his day lash out....but they'll be less as happens to CHF's who play 10+ years.

Watters has a tough job - as stated today in the Age, on games played we have blooded less kids than any other side since 2009 - even Pies have blooded much more. Thats a Lyon legacy we live with (had we jagged a flag -who cares....but we didnt and played Eddy's, Mqualters etc who also arent up to it).

Its not all doom and gloom as Sydney and Cats show - total bottom outs arent always a necessity....but it may mean some wheeling and dealing to snare top level draft picks come seasons end....at least we still have value to offer....

The ball use is certainly what got me today. Its always been an issue, but seems even more so now. The top 8 players are still very good, and means on your day, will probably bob up and beat a more fancied opponent (hopefully not Carlton), but the unskilled toilers make St Kilda vulnerable against most sides.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

It is only round 1 and they lost narrowly, but I liked the article in the age today, basically saying they need to think creatively to rejuvenate their list, and despite the thoughts/hopes of many senior players at St Kilda, the premiership window is definitely done.

Finey has said as much tonight on SEN, I am just curious to what people think about St Kilda, should they just rebuild or try and hang on?

Thoughts?

Didn't really answer this question in my last post.

I think its too early in the season to hit rebound mode or not. I always think you should make an assessment on that in round seven.

If we are 5-2 or better (with the draw we have) go for it.

If we are 4-3 or 3-4, we need to make a judgment call.

After round seven, our season gets infinitely harder after the cushy little start we have (we don't travel again until round eight I believe) so if we have only 2 or LESS wins on the board by then, its time to play the kids and develop our lsit completely. Play the veterans who are always reliable or have lots of credits in the bank (ie Milne, Roo, Dal, hayes, Fisher, Goddard, Joey, maybe one or two others) and have EVERYONE else on shuffle and if they perform, they stay in, if they don't they drop out.

Also, I will edit it later but I just realised Port didn't actually win the wooden spoon - some idiot I am there huh?

 

[Blue1980]

Both teams are on the same path, ie well past their best after going deep into September for a few years on end.

I agree with that, but seems outwardly St Kilda are still trying to say their still in contention, and maybe to keep the experienced guys interested Watters is at least trying to give the appearance of that.

There isn't much difference from where the Doggies or St K are at in my view, but seems the Doggies have accepted the rebuild has begun, but St Kilda not quite yet.

 

[sainter35]

Agreed. When the pressure is on ball use and dumb decision makers kill you.

See Blake last year against Cats rd 1.....all he had to do was hang on to the ball...but he passes to a Cats player...

Jones and others simply cant hit a target and in modern footy it kills you. I do feel for Riewoldt - you'd do your hamstring to if you had to pick every mark off your shoe laces...and sadly our best kicks aka Dal/Goddard languish down back to help out the toilers like Dempster, Blake and Geary.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

Umpiring didn't cost St Kilda today.

Lack of discipline and accountability cost us A LOT.

Umpiring was pretty poor but two years ago at the same ground we got a 31-9 differential so I guess now things are even in the universe.

Plus Port were first to the ball which generally gets you more free kicks and as mentioned above, lack of discipline.

 

[PykeDream]

Season is over.. they could still make the 8 but what is the point of just tracking along and making the 8 for the sake of it. Time for them to look to the future and clear out some of their older brigade who are well and truly past it.

One game has been played...why should St Kilda re-prioritise their entire season on the back of a singular upset? Who knows who else Port might beat at home - West Coast weren't rated as being a legitimate chance last year until they pushed Hawthorn in Tassie.

 

[Spitta09]

One game has been played...why should St Kilda re-prioritise their entire season on the back of a singular upset? Who knows who else Port might beat at home - West Coast weren't rated as being a legitimate chance last year until they pushed Hawthorn in Tassie.

Why? Because they should have already done so toward the end of last year when lyon was there but he kept persisting with the same old. I know it is very early but losing to a mediocre side in Port could be the wake up call that is needed.

 

[Blue1980]

One game has been played...why should St Kilda re-prioritise their entire season on the back of a singular upset? Who knows who else Port might beat at home - West Coast weren't rated as being a legitimate chance last year until they pushed Hawthorn in Tassie.

Port certainly ran out the match better than they would of last year. I remember they were level with us halfway through the 3rd last year and we then blew them away and won by 60 plus. Similar with Hawthorn whom they also pushed.

Hartlett looked fantastic, reminds me of Bryce Gibbs.

Off topic, I still think St Kilda are out of premiership mode and should act accordingly. Doesn't mean dropping every senior player in sight, but the balance of kids to experience ratio may change if the losses mount.

 

[sainter35]

, but the balance of kids to experience ratio may change if the losses mount.

I think thats a given.

Watters has already said he'd love to have had some more 23-24yrs old on our list that have been developed....sadly that cupboards bare....

If we start to lose - kids will be in. Cards will be marked.

By the way - you guys arent interested in a Polo for Murphy deal??

 

[TheKanga]

Credit to Port i thought they were good, i don't think the Saints will make the 8 this year to many younger teams pushing up the ladder.

 

[PykeDream]

Why? Because they should have already done so toward the end of last year when lyon was there but he kept persisting with the same old. I know it is very early but losing to a mediocre side in Port could be the wake up call that is needed.

Port certainly ran out the match better than they would of last year. I remember they were level with us halfway through the 3rd last year and we then blew them away and won by 60 plus. Similar with Hawthorn whom they also pushed.

Hartlett looked fantastic, reminds me of Bryce Gibbs.

Off topic, I still think St Kilda are out of premiership mode and should act accordingly. Doesn't mean dropping every senior player in sight, but the balance of kids to experience ratio may change if the losses mount.

I understand how a run of losses against sides they should beat would require a shake up, but I just don't think Watters should be too reactionary in this instance. For the first three or four weeks he should stick to his guns and focus on achieving the goals he set in the pre season.

If this does not work as anticipated, by all means he should turn to blooding youth and new ideas. But I can imagine he'd spend a lot of time wondering what could have been, if significant mistakes were made in response to the loss of a single game.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

I think thats a given.

Watters has already said he'd love to have had some more 23-24yrs old on our list that have been developed....sadly that cupboards bare....

If we start to lose - kids will be in. Cards will be marked.

By the way - you guys arent interested in a Polo for Murphy deal??

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurely you jest?

Polo is worth AT LEAST Murphy AND Judd!

 

[Blue1980]

I think thats a given.

Watters has already said he'd love to have had some more 23-24yrs old on our list that have been developed....sadly that cupboards bare....

If we start to lose - kids will be in. Cards will be marked.

By the way - you guys arent interested in a Polo for Murphy deal??

I will turn that one down I think
We would happily take Goddard or Sam Fisher of your hands though.

As I said in an earlier thread we had a similar issue in 2002 (all be it more extreme) when being in contention for a while and terrible recruiting finally took their toll. What happens is there is a vacuum of guys 23-25 who have 50-100 games under their belts.

 

[sainter35]

Thats us. We're in a vaccum allright....having the beejesus sucked out of us this minute.

That said, didnt Adelaide beat Hawks first up last year?......so Im hanging on to that...

 

[mysainters]

I'm going with the word 'blending'

Still a lot of talent there, just need to blend some kids in there.

Some guys careers could be drawing to a close, but that's ok, it happens. Don't see the need to lay boots into guys who were at their second clubs for a reason, and got the best they could out of themselves.

Contested ball is awful, but what I did like was that play often appeared to be orchestrated in a way to put the boys in a position to score more if they learn to take their opportunities?

I think the tinkering needs to be first with what is going wrong with the midfield, and then with those delivering the ball inside 50.

Good thing this time is there are guys like Seb Ross, Tom Ledger, Ahmed Saad hovering, and will likely get a game.