St Kilda - surely its rebuild mode

[MightyTiger]

I think a couple years at the bottom with some good drafting and trading, coupled with the few decent kids the have Siposs etc I think St Kilda can be challenging again with a decent list in a couple years time.

 

[Blue1980]

Thats us. We're in a vaccum allright....having the beejesus sucked out of us this minute.

That said, didnt Adelaide beat Hawks first up last year?......so Im hanging on to that...

Adelaide copped about 5 injuries in that one game as well, and never really got a full list going again after that.

Still when there is life there is hope...

 

[PykeDream]

Yep, this is one reason why I don't think its all doom and gloom for the Saints. Hawthorn and St Kilda often struggle at AAMI from what I've heard.

If only it was as much of a fortress against other teams

 

[Roby]

Of those four, the only one I would like to see as a regular is Stanley because he hasn't been tried long enough yet. Geary, Steven and Armitage have all played great games for us and done great things but they lack consistency.

We need to find more consistent players.

With our draw, we now have to win 12 games out of 21 to make finals this year or we fail - today against the (ALMOST) reigning wooden spooners we dropped short by a goal at a ground we SUCK at.

What does that say? That I think its about 50/50 at this stage. If St Kilda are to be ANY chance of playing footy we have to make a statement in the next couple of weeks against Gold Coast and fellow strugglers the Bulldogs.

If not, our match the following week against Freo will be a very disappointing one as our streak against Freo will come to an end in a very dissatisfying fashion.

EDIT - They didn't actually WIN the wooden spoon

But if that is the case wouldn't it be better to completely rebuild? You also have the highest free agents available with 10, it's possible you could lose 1-2 more of your starts, hampering you even more. I would think a decision to trade your older players and do a GWS, or Gold Coast, or what Hawthorn did a few years ago would be your best be at going for another flag hilt.

Umpiring didn't cost St Kilda today.

Lack of discipline and accountability cost us A LOT.

Umpiring was pretty poor but two years ago at the same ground we got a 31-9 differential so I guess now things are even in the universe.

Plus Port were first to the ball which generally gets you more free kicks and as mentioned above, lack of discipline.

Actually umpiring did cost you. Not saying you weren't poor but umpiring did cost you.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

But if that is the case wouldn't it be better to completely rebuild? You also have the highest free agents available with 10, it's possible you could lose 1-2 more of your starts, hampering you even more. I would think a decision to trade your older players and do a GWS, or Gold Coast, or what Hawthorn did a few years ago would be your best be at going for another flag hilt.



Actually umpiring did cost you. Not saying you weren't poor but umpiring did cost you.

I think the last few passages of play we made some dumb errors. Kind of over our players having the obvious option right in front of them and they do something that's not only not even something you would think of but something completely insane as well.

Oh and shit, forgot about the free agent stuff. to be honest I don't really understand it all that much, but I know we risk losing our players and getting nothing more them so its all srs business.

 

[Defacto]

its sad, but were done. its sad because between 2004 and 2010 we should have won 3 flags. sadly its a classic case of missed opportunities and in some cases mismanagement.

i believe we would have won the 2004 flag with a decent coach and fitness team/high performance coach. 2009 we probably would have won if we took the foot off the pedal and managed some of the players games, instead of trying to go undefeated. 2010 we would have been lucky to pinch one. 2005 we had a chance.

sadly we have got no reward for effort.

what concerns me more than our onfield performance is our off-field performance. we posted a massive loss last year. it looks like we wont make 40k members this year. our image has taken a battering and this has affected our ability to get a decent sponsor. our debt is manageable but it has grown thanks to the relocation to seaford and the profit loss last year.

on field the reality is were just over the hill. reiwoldt as a center half forward is in his twilight years. can someone name a modern center half forward who has played beyond 30-31 and been effective?

fisher as a center half back is starting to struggle, especially now that he doesnt have a zoned defence that allows him to peel off and be the third man up.

kozi has improved but i doubt he'll keep form given as the season progresses given his age. we have no FB.

so that means we need to replace a FB, CHB, CHF and FF. this is where it gets really sad. apart from simpkin (21-22 yrs, 191cm, 90kg) who can play FB we dont really have anyone.

that leaves us with a massive hole in our spine and no viable options. add to this hayes (our best in and under midfielder) is 32 and milne our best other avenue to goal is also 32.

the rebuild is upon us whether we like it or not. how we go about the rebuild will be interesting and will define how long we sit at the bottom of the ladder for.

 

[Defacto]

I think a couple years at the bottom with some good drafting and trading, coupled with the few decent kids the have Siposs etc I think St Kilda can be challenging again with a decent list in a couple years time.

siposs did his knee today in the VFL. got stretched off. suspected PCL. best case 6 weeks.

 

[Blue1980]

its sad, but were done. its sad because between 2004 and 2010 we should have won 3 flags. sadly its a classic case of missed opportunities and in some cases mismanagement.

i believe we would have won the 2004 flag with a decent coach and fitness team/high performance coach. 2009 we probably would have won if we took the foot off the pedal and managed some of the players games, instead of trying to go undefeated. 2010 we would have been lucky to pinch one. 2005 we had a chance.

sadly we have got no reward for effort.

what concerns me more than our onfield performance is our off-field performance. we posted a massive loss last year. it looks like we wont make 40k members this year. our image has taken a battering and this has affected our ability to get a decent sponsor. our debt is manageable but it has grown thanks to the relocation to seaford and the profit loss last year.

on field the reality is were just over the hill. reiwoldt as a center half forward is in his twilight years. can someone name a modern center half forward who has played beyond 30-31 and been effective?

fisher as a center half back is starting to struggle, especially now that he doesnt have a zoned defence that allows him to peel off and be the third man up.

kozi has improved but i doubt he'll keep form given as the season progresses given his age. we have no FB.

so that means we need to replace a FB, CHB, CHF and FF. this is where it gets really sad. apart from simpkin (21-22 yrs, 191cm, 90kg) who can play FB we dont really have anyone.

that leaves us with a massive hole in our spine and no viable options. add to this hayes (our best in and under midfielder) is 32 and milne our best other avenue to goal is also 32.

the rebuild is upon us whether we like it or not. how we go about the rebuild will be interesting and will define how long we sit at the bottom of the ladder for.

Agree with pretty much all of that. Especially with your flag chances/misses. If you got Lyon as coach in 02/03 who knows what could of happened?

Still in 09 not resting players/not taking foot off the pedal (aside from the 1 match against Hawthorn) meant you were probably a few percent off come September, which was just enough for Geelong to win.

 

[Falchoon]

Actually umpiring did cost you. Not saying you weren't poor but umpiring did cost you.

I was enjoying the AFL's looser interpretation of the head high rule all weekend, until they switched it back in the final game.


The problem with the Saints all pre season and again tonight is a lack of run, which looks like a lack of energy.

Whether that is physical or mental, I'm not sure, but the outcome is they are simply being out worked.

 

[Present Not Past]

For starters, you don't see Geelong talking rebuild after their loss to Fremantle at Patersons in their round 1 match. It just so happens that all non-victorian sides succeeded this weekend (with the exception of GC and GWS) - conspiracy? - I'll leave that to those who know better.

It's true (and is expected) that something of a rebuild will occur with the introduction of a new coach to a team. But the coach can't drop players willy-nilly. This process will take time.

Watters has a vast array of inexperienced players in front of him today and he is trying to get his head around who he can slot into the side and who will come out.

However, come finals 2013, these youngsters will have had two years playing in the AFL and that's where my money is for another crack at the flag for the Saints.

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

I think it is- not because of the result today though, the writing was on the wall in the off season, Lyon didn't go west just because he woke up and decided to shaft Mark Harvey- he knew the window was most likely closing.

The difficult thing for St Kilda is the ideal time to start a rebuild is about 12 months before it becomes painfully obvious you need a rebuild- you want to trade out senior players whilst they still have currency, start to play the kids, and make sure the coaching staff know what they are getting themselves into.

Very tough thing for Watters to put up his hand and start that process now- he will be effectively risking his own future as an AFL coach, because there inevitably will be some pain- last offseason was also probably the ideal time to start to throw some big names on the trading block- GWS would have paid big for a marquee name like Goddard or even Kossie, and St Kilda could have gotten some sensational young talent and managed the transition over a couple of years.

That said, even with the massive downgrading in value which happens to players in their late 20s, they still have some pretty tasty looking cattle if they are prepared to ruthless at the end of the season- the likes of Freo/Carlton/Hawthorn would snap up their top liners for first round picks.

I hope this is not taken as a troll or a swipe at them, because I'm genuinely disappointed for their fans, and for champs like Reiwoldt and Hayes, who deserve to be premiership players more than most- they were a phenomenal team in the early noughties, and it was just the bounce of the ball which did for them in 2010.

Not always a very kind game, football.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

siposs did his knee today in the VFL. got stretched off. suspected PCL. best case 6 weeks.

Wow, if that's not the footy gods just saying "**** you" I don't know what is.

How disappointing.

 

[MightyTiger]

siposs did his knee today in the VFL. got stretched off. suspected PCL. best case 6 weeks.

Shattering news if true, saw a little of the kid last year and definitely showed he will be something good.

 

[bombermick]

I can't see any Jonathan Hays on the Saints list - someone very expendable with real currency. They can't trade Roo, Goddard etc - the untouchables - but they have to trade stars to avoid a rebuild.

Lyon's tactics were sound, if for a bit of luck. Their recruting of late has been horrible, but a flag would've been worth it. A couple of years missing finals is what they need to rejuvenate the list.

 

[Plugger35]

It is only round 1 and they lost narrowly, but I liked the article in the age today, basically saying they need to think creatively to rejuvenate their list, and despite the thoughts/hopes of many senior players at St Kilda, the premiership window is definitely done.

Finey has said as much tonight on SEN, I am just curious to what people think about St Kilda, should they just rebuild or try and hang on?

Thoughts?

Season is over.. they could still make the 8 but what is the point of just tracking along and making the 8 for the sake of it. Time for them to look to the future and clear out some of their older brigade who are well and truly past it.

Kneejerk reaction much?

We actually beat both your teams the last time we played you so I guess your teams must be finished and looking to rebuild as well.

No doubt we need to rejuvenate our list with some younger players and Watters is doing that but we still have enough quality to make the finals and be a serious flag threat.

Today's loss was disappointing but winning interstate at AAMI is never easy, especially when you cop the sort of umpiring we did today. Port have also improved quite a bit from last year and will be hard to beat at home for most teams.

Write us off at your peril, plenty of people did that last year and we still recovered to make the finals.

 

[Roby]

I was enjoying the AFL's looser interpretation of the head high rule all weekend, until they switched it back in the final game.


The problem with the Saints all pre season and again tonight is a lack of run, which looks like a lack of energy.

Whether that is physical or mental, I'm not sure, but the outcome is they are simply being out worked.

After watching every game this week, I have no doubts that is what happened. Unfortunately different will umpire differently and then certain players and certain teams get the benefit of doubt.


After the second quarter it didn't look they lacked run compared to Port, a lot of their goals came from counter-attacks and fast breaks. Then in the second half a few players were running tackles from behind.

The main thing that was missing was polish, the foot skills were not that great, maybe St Kilda is becoming to used to playing at Etihad.

 

[sainter35]

I can't see any Jonathan Hays on the Saints list - someone very expendable with real currency. They can't trade Roo, Goddard etc - the untouchables - but they have to trade stars to avoid a rebuild.

Lyon's tactics were sound, if for a bit of luck. Their recruting of late has been horrible, but a flag would've been worth it. A couple of years missing finals is what they need to rejuvenate the list.

Cant agree re Lyons tactics

Sounds IMO is being able to challenge while keeping a healthy crop of talent coming through - Malthouse did it. Cats have done it and challenged as long as we have (past 8 yrs).........Lyon went "top up recycled" mad for the quick flag. He knew our top 6-8 were as good as anyones.....and thought he could bolster that with some defensive play and average player bots to carry that out. It didnt work, the clubs bereft of 23-24 age bracket talent (needed now to support Hayes and co)...and Lyon knew it. The hard decision were coming this year.

He's off to a better, younger list cherry ripe thanks largely to others sacrificial work.....but lets not call that "sound" ....Id say more..."opportunistic" if I was being nice.

 

[CF]

I really think Ross Lyons recruiting strategies has put the Saints in a situation where they have no real good prospects to come through and support the older players and to help provide the run they need.

I wouldn't under estimate them though as they still have a number of champions in that team who will get better as the season wears on.

Only an idiot would judge round 1 form in the manner that has been in this thread

 

[Defacto]

I can't see any Jonathan Hays on the Saints list - someone very expendable with real currency. They can't trade Roo, Goddard etc - the untouchables - but they have to trade stars to avoid a rebuild.

Lyon's tactics were sound, if for a bit of luck. Their recruting of late has been horrible, but a flag would've been worth it. A couple of years missing finals is what they need to rejuvenate the list.

handing out lengthy over priced contracts to keep players whilst we were challenging is now coming to bite us. but we didnt have much of a choice back then.

ideally we'd chop gram as off the last off season, but unfortunately i think he;s contracted until the end of 2013!!!!! the guy hasnt played a really good game since 2009 GF. to add insult to injury he's on big coin, off the back of that game.

we need to cut and cut hard to the depth players outside of our core, that are 26+. if todays form continues until the end of the year, i'd do this:
RETIRED
Blake
Milne (tough call but i just dont think his defencive side of the game is going to keep up)
Peake

DELIST (try and trade but there'll be no takers)
Jones
Polo
Armitage
Crocker

TRADE (otherwise keep)
Gilbert
Clarke
Gram (gone as soon as contracts up)

 

[shiva25]

Kneejerk reaction much?

We actually beat both your teams the last time we played you so I guess your teams must be finished and looking to rebuild as well.

No doubt we need to rejuvenate our list with some younger players and Watters is doing that but we still have enough quality to make the finals and be a serious flag threat.

Today's loss was disappointing but winning interstate at AAMI is never easy, especially when you cop the sort of umpiring we did today. Port have also improved quite a bit from last year and will be hard to beat at home for most teams.

Write us off at your peril, plenty of people did that last year and we still recovered to make the finals.

You might have enough talent to scrape into the finals but please cut the crap about being a serious flag threat. If you think youve got the goods to challenge the Hawthorns,Geelongs and Collingwoods of this world your dreaming as the premiership window is fast closing if not almost shut with the current crop Stkilda have now and if they dont rejuvenate the list soon they will be in free fall before you know it. Lyon was a smart cookie. He saw the writing on the wall and knew he had got the most as he could from the current list which wasnt going to get any better and was lucky he was afforded the opportunity to jump ship at the right time

 

[Present Not Past]

handing out lengthy over priced contracts to keep players whilst we were challenging is now coming to bite us. but we didnt have much of a choice back then.

ideally we'd chop gram as off the last off season, but unfortunately i think he;s contracted until the end of 2013!!!!! the guy hasnt played a really good game since 2009 GF. to add insult to injury he's on big coin, off the back of that game.

we need to cut and cut hard to the depth players outside of our core, that are 26+. if todays form continues until the end of the year, i'd do this:
RETIRED
Blake
Milne (tough call but i just dont think his defencive side of the game is going to keep up)
Peake

DELIST (try and trade but there'll be no takers)
Jones
Polo
Armitage
Crocker

TRADE (otherwise keep)
Gilbert
Clarke
Gram (gone as soon as contracts up)

Just my own thinking but I think Roo may retire at the end of the year, Goddard may go as well, and maybe Fisher. Not Milne.

This will free up a huge amount of Salary Cap where the Saints can retain their future stars and attract big time trades.

 

[Defacto]

Just my own thinking but I think Roo may retire at the end of the year, Goddard may go as well, and maybe Fisher. Not Milne.

This will free up a huge amount of Salary Cap where the Saints can retain their future stars and attract big time trades.

if roo, fisher and goddard all went at once, it would spell disaster.

roo has one more year on the contract, he'll play it out. half his salary isnt counted anyways, due to being a veteran.

fish is needed to help support the kids coming through. ferguson is our only viable option but at 19, its too soon. if we can get 2 more years out of him, it will help the transition. otherwise we trade for/draft a mature age ready made CHB.

if goddard goes it means he cant take the CHF/CHB if we need him to cover it.

goddard going would give us some good picks though!!!

 

[MightyTiger]

handing out lengthy over priced contracts to keep players whilst we were challenging is now coming to bite us. but we didnt have much of a choice back then.

ideally we'd chop gram as off the last off season, but unfortunately i think he;s contracted until the end of 2013!!!!! the guy hasnt played a really good game since 2009 GF. to add insult to injury he's on big coin, off the back of that game.

we need to cut and cut hard to the depth players outside of our core, that are 26+. if todays form continues until the end of the year, i'd do this:
RETIRED
Blake
Milne (tough call but i just dont think his defencive side of the game is going to keep up)
Peake

DELIST (try and trade but there'll be no takers)
Jones
Polo
Armitage
Crocker

TRADE (otherwise keep)
Gilbert
Clarke
Gram (gone as soon as contracts up)

Happily take Armitage and Gilbert at Richmond, change of scenery may be what Gilbert needs to return to his form pre-st kilda school girl scandal.

And as for Armitage, kid showed bucket loads last year when Hayes went down.

 

[Plugger35]

You might have enough talent to scrape into the finals but please cut the crap about being a serious flag threat. If you think youve got the goods to challenge the Hawthorns,Geelongs and Collingwoods of this world your dreaming as the premiership window is fast closing if not almost shut with the current crop Stkilda have now and if they dont rejuvenate the list soon they will be in free fall before you know it. Lyon was a smart cookie. He saw the writing on the wall and knew he had got the most as he could from the current list which wasnt going to get any better and was lucky he was afforded the opportunity to jump ship at the right time

We were only a point away from a premiership 18 months ago with a team that isn't too different to today.

We still have enough quality senior players on our list and have some good youngsters coming through that are better than what our bottom 6 players were under Lyon.

I can't see any reason why we can't at least make the finals, if not challenge for a flag. Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn aren't invincible, two of them lost this weekend as well.

 

[tribey]

Actually umpiring did cost you. Not saying you weren't poor but umpiring did cost you.

Was at the game today and finished the replay not long ago. At least 2 Saints goals came from non-decisions involving in the back - one where Milne got a Joe The Goose after Kosi rode Surjan into the ground and the one to Clinton Jones after a clear HITB 1 kick upfield. John McCarthy was also pulled down without the ball 35m out straight in front in Q4 which wasn't paid.

Shit happens.

Can't remember a team being second to the ball so often and having to rely on so many turnover goals. It's a cliche, but Port wanted it more. First to the ball more often than not and competed harder in the crucial contests when it mattered.