The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Freshwater]

Theres your problem. You actually think they're the same. Or at least that rationale lets you excuse the publicans. The two sides of US politics are absolutely no longer comparable. Politicians v MMA cage fighters.

The publican pollies are very different to most conservatives in the states. Most conservatives are appalled by MAGA and Trumpism. I was comparing the performances in congress.

Dems "fixed" healthcare, pubs want to break it again
Dems fixed infrastructure, ppubs voted against it but are now opening the bridges etc.
Publicans lowered taxes, increased the deficit and now blame dems for the bill.

Remember Trumps almost daily promises of action on infrastructure? Never happened. Joe did it. Remember the furor around immigartion recently/currently. The dems met with some publicans who wanted to achieve a fix, compromised, found a fix to migration and Trump and his cohorts blocked it so they would have an issue to campaign on. The publicans dont want to fix things and havent since the advent of the tea party. Theyre not interested in equity and fairness and helping the people, purely in power and helping themselves and their mates.

Not dissimilar here in Oz. Duttons crazy nuclear dream is just an excuse to keep right on the fossil fuel path for another 30 years. Whos in bed with the ff industry? Thats right, the Libnat party. In the same way one side of Australian politics is and always will be better for the environment, the other side will always be on the side of big business. They are not the same.

I never said they’re the same. I said they are equally moral or correct. Every issue has to debated and thought through and every single one always has a trade off, whether the left gets their way or the right. I am constantly deriding Trump, I haven’t got the blinkers on like many here.
You just brought up an issue with Dutton. You believe he wants nuclear power because this will helps his mates in the fossil fuel industry? There will always be pro and cons to this and every issue. I personally have a massive issue with the wind farms destroying the country landscape, dividing small towns, disincentivising farming, poor long term output with moving parts, extremely high embodied energy startup, a horrendous loss of power through too large a grid, etc etc. Nuclear has as many if not more problems. But it’s not all above board here. I’ve recently heard that one of the reasons the Labour governments are against nuclear is because so many of the big Super funds are tied up in investing into this infrastructure, so monied interest are winning over the environment, but yeah let’s make out wind is better for the ‘environment’. Everything’s a trade off.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Anyone with sense

That's the crux of it BD.

 

[Bulldog1954]

This reply shows 100% what I’m trying to say, you barrack for one side. You really actually think one side is better than the other? Half the country are conservative, they are mostly good people just like the progressives are mostly good too. Sure the Republicans have a dickhead in Trump, but he is a bully, the Dems have many dickheads too maybe not quite as big as Trump but up there. Left is NOT better than Right!! Right is not better than left! Barrack for the bulldogs not a side of politics, because you’ll never be left enough or right enough for the next generation. Because eventually it turns right around on itself eg like we now have ‘left wingers’ not believing in Martin Luther King’s ideals judging someone by their character not their skin colour or right wingers believing in a twice divorced serial liar.

This is different to the traditional left v right arguments. I am left wing, but in the past I could respect people like John McCain and Mitt Romney. I wouldn't have voted for them, but understood those who voted republican primarily for financial and tax reasons.

The current republican party has sold out to one man, who deserves nothing but contempt. He even treats fellow republican's terribly. He has been racist towards McConnell's wife numerous times (Coco Chow), he called Ted Cruz's wife ugly and said McCain wasn't a war hero because he got caught.

He treats people terribly and is a horrible person. No one in the history of American politics has constantly said terrible things about other politicians, both on his side and the other side. Not to mention, his sexual assault civil convictions and comments on grabbing women by the pussy. He has a large proportion of people who don't support him because he's republican, but because he appeals to the prejudices they too hold.

 

[dogwatch]

I’m surprised people are talking about the Democrats as a left wing party. I guess it’s fair to say they are a fair way left of the loonies in the Republican Party but that’s not saying much. They are a centrist mob who have a bit of a social conscience. That’s about as left as the USA ever goes.

 

[Mofra]

The prophecy has spoken

 

[geoffjennings79]

I’m surprised people are talking about the Democrats as a left wing party. I guess it’s fair to say they are a fair way left of the loonies in the Republican Party but that’s not saying much. They are a centrist mob who have a bit of a social conscience. That’s about as left as the USA ever goes.

Yes, but anyone who criticises Trump on BF, here or on the SRP board, are collectively labelled "the Left"!

From inhabiting both boards, there are a plethora of posters at pains to describe Dems/Biden as the lesser of two evils (likely now Harris as well).

I don't read many people suggesting Dem presidents are paragons of virtue, it's just that the comparison is to Trump. I think most people get the Dems are probably closer to LNP here (not the same, but still to the right of even a centrist ALP). It's just that Trump and the GOP he has captured are to the right of just about every party on the Australian political landscape. Which is an indictment on anyone who thinks he is the answer to any problem, either within the US or globally.

I'm as frustrated and disgusted as anyone that the US led by Biden have not engaged more aggressively in stopping the genocide in Israel. Harris has at least expressed a desire for a ceasefire. However the Dems are beholden in all sorts of ways to elements who will prevent them ever opposing Israeli occupation, regardless of president.

But the alternative is a moron (usually reluctant to use that label, but in this case it's almost imperative) who wants to recognise Israel using Jerusalem as leverage to expand further. A moron who doesn't have even the most basic understanding of geopolitical nuances. A moron who looks up(!) to Putin, Xi and even his North Korean friend.

Ah, sorry dogwatch I could go on and on, but there are posters in this thread who can't... or won't... understand.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Not even gonna reply to those comments painting Elon Musk as a bastion of truth and free speech. Facts say he is quite the opposite. Funny stuff.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

If someone hasn’t read the Twitter files and not understood their significance then how do we debate.

I have. Did you?

If you did you'd know that it had nothing at all to do with the level of public discourse.

X isn't that influential outside of its own ecosphere and what influence it once had is shrinking by the day under a new regime as it amplifies voices on the right.

What Elon found after he bought Twitter and looked under the ‘hood’ was very significant. He basically said to non partisan journalists go for see what you can find and it showed how the Democrats block many stories from surfacing, amongst many other things.
But again, to many on here one side demons the other side saints.

Speak of demons and like an unwanted fart in an elevator. Elon Musk appears in the conversation.

This is the same Elon Musk who has pledged $45 million a month to Donald Trumps Campaign. Somebody who is hardly above the political or culture war fray. Indeed he's so immersed in it that he pissed $44 billion away buying Twitter at the meme price of $54.20 (he so funny!) and then almost immediately halved its value, with his running of the company.

What a goddamned free speech genius he is.

Elon confected the twitter files as a distraction from being forced into going through with his idiotic bluff to buy twitter by the courts. He then handed the story off to tame journalist hacks Matt Taibbi, Bari Weis and a select few others containing selectively released twitter documents. A story that was supposed to show Twitters hand behind the scenes helping Joe Biden get elected which Taibbi and Twitters own lawyers admitted showed nothing of the sort.

The whole thing of course accorded with Musks world view that there was some grand leftist woke hive mind conspiracy (isn't there always?) within the twitter moderating team when in fact any perceived bias was just that and if anything at all was a consequence of a flawed internal moderating system that was overwhelmed to a point of inertia by Democrats and Republicans who would ask for takedown requests for anything they believed to be inaccurate, defamatory or outright misinformation.

Many of the Democrat take down request were as a direct result of people posting Hunter Bidens dick picts. Something that was outside of the terms and conditions of Twitter at the time. But sure, free speech and the right to see Hunters dick.

It was a non-story that excited the right in much the same way that the debunked embarrassment that was 2000 Mules did. Or as a laser pointer on the floor in front of a kitten does.

Those Twitter files?

Dig up man. Up.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Dig up man. Up.

Too late Norm, the rabbit holes have all merged into an underground maze.

 

[Outback Footy]

I never said they’re the same. I said they are equally moral or correct. Every issue has to debated and thought through and every single one always has a trade off, whether the left gets their way or the right. I am constantly deriding Trump, I haven’t got the blinkers on like many here.
You just brought up an issue with Dutton. You believe he wants nuclear power because this will helps his mates in the fossil fuel industry? There will always be pro and cons to this and every issue. I personally have a massive issue with the wind farms destroying the country landscape, dividing small towns, disincentivising farming, poor long term output with moving parts, extremely high embodied energy startup, a horrendous loss of power through too large a grid, etc etc. Nuclear has as many if not more problems. But it’s not all above board here. I’ve recently heard that one of the reasons the Labour governments are against nuclear is because so many of the big Super funds are tied up in investing into this infrastructure, so monied interest are winning over the environment, but yeah let’s make out wind is better for the ‘environment’. Everything’s a trade off.

Again, theyre not "equally moral or correct". They just arent from any angle.

One side wants to govern and will compromise. ie the border bill stopped by Trumps croneys. The other side just want to break government. And again thats not reflective of the bulk of conservatives. The publicans have been hijacked by ultra extreme nutjobs. Culture war warriors, more interested in point scoring than getting stuff done. This congress, a publican congress, has passed less legislation by a large margin than any other congress. And this publican supreme court has overturned established law and simply make stuff up now that suits Trump (ie the immunity nonsense)

Nuclear is the most expensive power source, and unproven. Theres no guarantee these small modular reactors can even be built. Best case (according to CSIRO) it might be online by 2050, 4x current renewable power prices, possibly able to supply maybe up to 5% of the nations power, and no town nominated wants it - it doesnt add up from any angle.

Wind farms dont "destroy" farmland. Thats utter BS. I live in a very busy renewables area. Turbines are on hilltops, grazing land. Cows and sheep fit under turbines happily. Sheep fit under solar panels happily and are more productive (more shade under the panels). And every part of a solar or wind farm is now recyclable. Every other part of your argument equally applies to any distributed power network, like coal, or nuclear. Ever seen a coal mine? Lived near one? I know what I'd prefer.

Disincentivising farming or securing farmers on their land and guaranteeing an income in a very volatile industry. Renewables are future proofing those farmers lucky enough to host farms.

But thats offtopic, lets get back to the USA

Kamala prosecuted criminals, Trump is one.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Too late Norm, the rabbit holes have all merged into an underground maze.

Now its just a bit of amusement on a slow day.

 

[Next Waiting]

The prophecy has spoken

View attachment 2056683

Lisa has better hair

 

[King Harold]

Imagine if all things are the same , and you lived in that world like some do on here.
Would have taken a lot of angst and disappointment out of my courting days ,

That one will do ,
they are all the same

 

[dogwatch]

TBF this could apply to most elections …

 

[dogwatch]

Imagine if all things are the same , and you lived in that world like some do on here.
Would have taken a lot of angst and disappointment out of my courting days ,

That one will do ,
they are all the same

I thought the whole point of “courting days“ was that they were all different.

Silly me!

 

[Freshwater]

This is different to the traditional left v right arguments. I am left wing, but in the past I could respect people like John McCain and Mitt Romney. I wouldn't have voted for them, but understood those who voted republican primarily for financial and tax reasons.

The current republican party has sold out to one man, who deserves nothing but contempt. He even treats fellow republican's terribly. He has been racist towards McConnell's wife numerous times (Coco Chow), he called Ted Cruz's wife ugly and said McCain wasn't a war hero because he got caught.

He treats people terribly and is a horrible person. No one in the history of American politics has constantly said terrible things about other politicians, both on his side and the other side. Not to mention, his sexual assault civil convictions and comments on grabbing women by the pussy. He has a large proportion of people who don't support him because he's republican, but because he appeals to the prejudices they too hold.

I agree with much of this. People are usually built with a left or right wing mindset, and that fine, this is how modern western societies have flourished. I have trashed Trump this whole debate, but because I even dare raise why good people would vote for this prick? People are then stuck to confront why? And many don’t want to see and just want to put nefarious motives on anyone who would vote for him over the Dems. Oh they’re deplorable, uneducated, racists, greedy, reactionaries etc. No, they’re good people with a choice, a complicated and difficult one. If you lean left it’s probably an easy choice in this instance. But if you lean right or a swing voter it’s not so easy, as the polls attest.

 

[Next Waiting]

Looks like MTG is going to be released to some extent as the attack dog on Harris.

The optics of Trump and Vance doing it will turn many away...so let's release the nutter in all her glory.

What a treat this is going to be

 

[King Harold]

The MAGA sycophants are deplorable.
Clinton 100% correct

 

[Charlie Bucket]

If you guys can’t see why good decent people are prepared to vote for a prick like Trump you must be blind to what the Dem’s stand for these days.

I don’t like Dem policies and general politics, so I’m cheering for the rapist pig who’s genuinely a terrible human being.

Why can’t the left see that this is perfectly normal???

 

[Next Waiting]

The arrogance and stupidity of the Republicans to put all their eggs in an old and narcissistic basket is weighing heavily upon them.

It must be killing them that their presumption of who their opponent would be hasn't materialised and they're caught flat footed. Out manoeuvred by lesser entities.

So now they revert to the law to try to get the opponent they planned for back. It's always the law which probably won't yield the result they want this time.....but we can always change it for next time.

 

[stefcep]

No, you distracted the conversation to Hillary when the original discussion was that Trump and Biden were equally bad men. That was an easily disproven lie so the reflex reaction was to change the subject. And then your claim that she didnt concede was even easier to disprove.

Even Biden is now irrelevant. Its now Trump (evil convicted lying narcissist) v Kamala.

As she beautifully puts it " I prosecuted sex offenders and fraudsters. He is one"

The problem for Harris is half the country doesn't give a shit that Trump was found guilty of these things because they happeend under the legal system of States that despise Trump all ready, in Courts run by Judges and Prosecutors that are activist members of the Democrats and for the sole purpose to stop him running. They failed.

 

[stefcep]

I don’t like Dem policies and general politics, so I’m cheering for the rapist pig who’s genuinely a terrible human being.

Why can’t the left see that this is perfectly normal???

You really don't get it, do you? Quite strange seeing that a forum for a club of the working class, the battlers and the strugglers.

They vote for Trump because the Democrats are supposed to be the party for the working class, the marginalized, the battlers. Instead, the Democrats have not only abandoned them, they utterly detest these "deplorables".. Its like modern-day Labor-there is a shift away from Labor in the working class suburbs-but they're not leaving Labor, Labor is leaving them for the inner city seats. Same thing in the US, on a much, much bigger scale.

 

[stefcep]

Exactly. In Trumps last term he kept on promising a health plan and never delivered, one of numerous lies he told.

He is good at campaigning though and scaring his base about the horrible brown people apparently pouring in to the country, the horrible trans people and the devastating war on Christmas.

and the fact that the Democats obstructed him every step of the way for everything that he did or tried to do, and then complained when they go theirs back.

Theres your problem. You actually think they're the same. Or at least that rationale lets you excuse the publicans. The two sides of US politics are absolutely no longer comparable. Politicians v MMA cage fighters.

The publican pollies are very different to most conservatives in the states. Most conservatives are appalled by MAGA and Trumpism. I was comparing the performances in congress.

Dems "fixed" healthcare, pubs want to break it again
Dems fixed infrastructure, ppubs voted against it but are now opening the bridges etc.
Publicans lowered taxes, increased the deficit and now blame dems for the bill.

Remember Trumps almost daily promises of action on infrastructure? Never happened. Joe did it. Remember the furor around immigartion recently/currently. The dems met with some publicans who wanted to achieve a fix, compromised, found a fix to migration and Trump and his cohorts blocked it so they would have an issue to campaign on. The publicans dont want to fix things and havent since the advent of the tea party. Theyre not interested in equity and fairness and helping the people, purely in power and helping themselves and their mates.

Not dissimilar here in Oz. Duttons crazy nuclear dream is just an excuse to keep right on the fossil fuel path for another 30 years. Whos in bed with the ff industry? Thats right, the Libnat party. In the same way one side of Australian politics is and always will be better for the environment, the other side will always be on the side of big business. They are not the same.

Trumps numbers Jan 2020-prior to Covid:

6.7 million jobs added, with hispanic women leading the way, 487,000 increase in manufactiriung jobs
Unemployment down to 3.5%
Job openings up 20%
Real weekly earnings up 2.5%
Stock market up 47%
Poverty down 1%, food stamp reciepients down 15%
Increase in border apprehensions 81%- Harris refused to go to the border.
Home ownership up 1%
House prices up 20%
hand gun production down 23%

Trump's Numbers January 2020 Update - FactCheck.org

Statistical measures of how things have changed during Trump's first three years.

www.factcheck.org

 

[stefcep]

Yes, but anyone who criticises Trump on BF, here or on the SRP board, are collectively labelled "the Left"!

From inhabiting both boards, there are a plethora of posters at pains to describe Dems/Biden as the lesser of two evils (likely now Harris as well).

I don't read many people suggesting Dem presidents are paragons of virtue, it's just that the comparison is to Trump. I think most people get the Dems are probably closer to LNP here (not the same, but still to the right of even a centrist ALP). It's just that Trump and the GOP he has captured are to the right of just about every party on the Australian political landscape. Which is an indictment on anyone who thinks he is the answer to any problem, either within the US or globally.

I'm as frustrated and disgusted as anyone that the US led by Biden have not engaged more aggressively in stopping the genocide in Israel. Harris has at least expressed a desire for a ceasefire. However the Dems are beholden in all sorts of ways to elements who will prevent them ever opposing Israeli occupation, regardless of president.

But the alternative is a moron (usually reluctant to use that label, but in this case it's almost imperative) who wants to recognise Israel using Jerusalem as leverage to expand further. A moron who doesn't have even the most basic understanding of geopolitical nuances. A moron who looks up(!) to Putin, Xi and even his North Korean friend.

Ah, sorry dogwatch I could go on and on, but there are posters in this thread who can't... or won't... understand.

And yet no wars under his watch. Maybe that's what it takes to keep the peace.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

You really don't get it, do you? Quite strange seeing that a forum for a club of the working class, the battlers and the strugglers.

They vote for Trump because the Democrats are supposed to be the party for the working class, the marginalized, the battlers. Instead, the Democrats have not only abandoned them, they utterly detest these "deplorables".. Its like modern-day Labor-there is a shift away from Labor in the working class suburbs-but they're not leaving Labor, Labor is leaving them for the inner city seats. Same thing in the US, on a much, much bigger scale.

Ahh yes, Liberals, always looking out for the working class and not the big end of town.

Clearly I’m not the one that doesn’t get it.

Labor have always been and still are for the working class. That doesn’t change just because they now build bike lanes in the inner city.

It doesn’t take a huge amount of intelligence to understand who actually benefits the most from left wing politics. Unfortunately, the right wing media across both countries are pretty effective in convincing some otherwise.