Analysis The rebuild of Carlton and Brisbane and their future prospects

[Mr_Plow]

Percentages are essentially identical at this stage, wins will level off as the season progresses.

Brisbane are much better at scoring, but completely ****ing ass at defending.
Carlton are great defensively, but for the most part (excluding last week) are ass at scoring.

Brisbane have also been blessed with a tremendously minimal injury list and really should be better given their list build is more advanced and healthy.

 

[Tom14]

Percentages are essentially identical at this stage, wins will level off as the season progresses.

Brisbane are much better at scoring, but completely ******* ass at defending.
Carlton are great defensively, but for the most part (excluding last week) are ass at scoring.

Brisbane have also been blessed with a tremendously minimal injury list and really should be better given their list build is more advanced and healthy.

I mean maybe but the fixture hasn't exactly been equivalent so far. We've probably had one game against a likely bottom 6 team (Norf), whereas you've played Sydney, the Dogs and the Suns who are all possible bottom 6 clubs (Suns are a fair way towards avoiding the bottom 6 though).

Our fixture as been comparatively more difficult - every team we have played won at least 12 games last year (though norf don't look any good) and we are 3-2. We've definitely had poor performances the last few weeks though.

Let's wait and see how it looks at the bye before we extrapolate Carlton's one win and our poor two weeks into the 'wins levelling off'.

 

[Dom PC]

Percentages are essentially identical at this stage, wins will level off as the season progresses.

Brisbane are much better at scoring, but completely ******* ass at defending.
Carlton are great defensively, but for the most part (excluding last week) are ass at scoring.

Brisbane have also been blessed with a tremendously minimal injury list and really should be better given their list build is more advanced and healthy.

I think you are being harsh on Brisbane defensively, as we don't park the bus like Carlton does. Hence why we have scored 100 points 3 times this year compared to you having done it for the first time in 3 odd years on the weekend.

Brisbane also was the better defensive team last year (by about 200 points), while also scoring 500 more points.

If you man up our defensive unit vs yours, I actually think ours is slightly stronger. However, I think in the midfield you've got us covered talent wise. Up forward you probably edge us in the talls, but we have you covered for smalls.

I actually think talent wise overall Carlton are ahead of Brisbane. Which is basically due to Carlton having deal with pretty much zero go home factor.

 

[a mayes ing]

Percentages are essentially identical at this stage, wins will level off as the season progresses.

Brisbane are much better at scoring, but completely ******* ass at defending.
Carlton are great defensively, but for the most part (excluding last week) are ass at scoring.

Brisbane have also been blessed with a tremendously minimal injury list and really should be better given their list build is more advanced and healthy.

Not sure about your defending scoring parts of your post
Round 1 Bris for 102 vs 58 against Eagles Carlton for 64 vs 97 against Richmond
Round 2 Bris for 107 vs 87 against North Carlton for 72 vs 88 against Port
Round 3 Bris for 107 vs 90 against Port Carlton for 74 vs 93 against Sydney
Round 4 Bris for 65 vs 112 against Dons Carlton 57 vs 59 against GC
Round 5 Bris for 61 vs 123 against Collingwood Carlton 101 vs 57 against Dogs

So, Attackwise: Brisbane has scored 3 100's in the first 3 round before suffering bad defeats. Carlton have only scored well once against the Dogs. So what you said was correct that Brisbane are much better at scoring than Carlton.

Defensewise: Brisbane was great the 1st round. The next 2 round against North and Port are much the same as what clubs scored against Carlton. Dons and Collingwood were big losses but Collingwood will probably be vying for the premiership this season and Dons have got their attack together, going to be plenty of big scores for them. Carlton have 3 scores of around 90 or over. And 2 small scores against which is good. So no, l wouldn't say Carlton is great defensively, only for the past 2 weeks and they were against GC (who can barely score 10 goals a game this season) and Dogs who were outside the 8 last season.

 

[a mayes ing]

I think you are being harsh on Brisbane defensively, as we don't park the bus like Carlton does. Hence why we have scored 100 points 3 times this year compared to you having done it for the first time in 3 odd years on the weekend.

Brisbane also was the better defensive team last year (by about 200 points), while also scoring 500 more points.

If you man up our defensive unit vs yours, I actually think ours is slightly stronger. However, I think in the midfield you've got us covered talent wise. Up forward you probably edge us in the talls, but we have you covered for smalls.

I actually think talent wise overall Carlton are ahead of Brisbane. Which is basically due to Carlton having deal with pretty much zero go home factor.

Plus the fact that as they are down the bottom and getting more more high draft picks getting gun players whereas we tend to trade them for good experience (Beams, Neale, Cameron)

 

[Juddernaut08]

I mean maybe but the fixture hasn't exactly been equivalent so far. We've probably had one game against a likely bottom 6 team (Norf), whereas you've played Sydney, the Dogs and the Suns who are all possible bottom 6 clubs (Suns are a fair way towards avoiding the bottom 6 though).

Our fixture as been comparatively more difficult - every team we have played won at least 12 games last year (though norf don't look any good) and we are 3-2. We've definitely had poor performances the last few weeks though.

Let's wait and see how it looks at the bye before we extrapolate Carlton's one win and our poor two weeks into the 'wins levelling off'.

Thought this term was not allowed.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Plus the fact that as they are down the bottom and getting more more high draft picks getting gun players whereas we tend to trade them for good experience (Beams, Neale, Cameron)

Brisbane trading your high draft picks from finishing near the bottom still adds to your talent pool still though.

 

[Mr_Plow]

I think you are being harsh on Brisbane defensively, as we don't park the bus like Carlton does. Hence why we have scored 100 points 3 times this year compared to you having done it for the first time in 3 odd years on the weekend.

Brisbane also was the better defensive team last year (by about 200 points), while also scoring 500 more points.

If you man up our defensive unit vs yours, I actually think ours is slightly stronger. However, I think in the midfield you've got us covered talent wise. Up forward you probably edge us in the talls, but we have you covered for smalls.

I actually think talent wise overall Carlton are ahead of Brisbane. Which is basically due to Carlton having deal with pretty much zero go home factor.

To me it's more of a mindset thing with Brisbane causing an inability of the midfielders to run both ways. Perhaps it is part of the gameplan to be ultra offensive with relative disregard for defence.

As pointed out though, it has only really been the last 2 weeks, so will be interesting to see how many points are conceded in the coming rounds.

 

[Gethelred]

It's more just a general comment on how people try to use the coaches votes as an unquestionable "argument ender". Personally, I don't give them a whole lot of creedence, but I guess that's just my opinion.

Stats should really only be used to support or refute an argument or claim, too, not as the main thrust of an argument.

Part of the problem is that "I think that player x is better than player y" is not a strong argument, so people inevitably move to arguing it from a numbers perspective; here's all the people who agree with me, it's more than those who agree with you! Not much stronger, really.

Nor is there really an objective measure of 'good player'-ness, either. You can quote stats until the cows come home, and someone will kindly come along and debunk the worth of each stat you use, until literally all you have is the evidence of your eyes.

 

[Gethelred]

I think you are being harsh on Brisbane defensively, as we don't park the bus like Carlton does. Hence why we have scored 100 points 3 times this year compared to you having done it for the first time in 3 odd years on the weekend.

Brisbane also was the better defensive team last year (by about 200 points), while also scoring 500 more points.

If you man up our defensive unit vs yours, I actually think ours is slightly stronger. However, I think in the midfield you've got us covered talent wise. Up forward you probably edge us in the talls, but we have you covered for smalls.

I actually think talent wise overall Carlton are ahead of Brisbane. Which is basically due to Carlton having deal with pretty much zero go home factor.

... when you had one injury to a key member of your 22 on that line (I think it was Witherden?) where we rotated 16+ players through our back half to compensate for the loss of every single member of our back six over the course of the season for significant amounts of time.

I rather think with the second bolded line, you could indeed be right; you may have better individual defenders (possibly) than we do. What you don't do as a team is defend well, IMO. This could change and quite rapidly, but at the moment - and in the past - your defense beats their men rather than work together to create something more than the sum of its parts, which is how our backline functions when not frantically rotating anyone whose ever played in the back half in a game of footy through there to compensate for injury.

And this is without mentioning the difference in midfield ages, quality, more injuries, etc. from last year...

 

[Parker400]

Percentages are essentially identical at this stage, wins will level off as the season progresses.

Brisbane are much better at scoring, but completely ******* ass at defending.
Carlton are great defensively, but for the most part (excluding last week) are ass at scoring.

Brisbane have also been blessed with a tremendously minimal injury list and really should be better given their list build is more advanced and healthy.

Browny summed the lions up well imo in that they have no defence type structure atm. That will come in time. Pies and geelong can pick them apart atm.

Bolts has gone full circle.went all out defence did well than tried attacking, it went terrible up till last week..

Great test for bolts as a coach this week if he goes zone or attack..

Side note blues ain't great at defence they parked the bus behind the ball.

 

[Mr_Plow]

Browny summed the lions up well imo in that they have no defence type structure atm. That will come in time. Pies and geelong can pick them apart atm.

Bolts has gone full circle.went all out defence did well than tried attacking, it went terrible up till last week..

Great test for bolts as a coach this week if he goes zone or attack..

Side note blues ain't great at defence they parked the bus behind the ball.

It's not a matter of zone or attack for Carlton, we actually have a balance which has kept us in every game this season. The same cannot be said for Brisbane, although their kamikaze style has produced more wins, fair play to them. But now that we have Kreuzer back and most of our best 22 to choose from (except mainly Docherty), the tide will change.

And the parking the bus is so 2017. Weitering, Jones and Plowman are rock ****ing solid.

 

[Parker400]

It's not a matter of zone or attack for Carlton, we actually have a balance which has kept us in every game this season. The same cannot be said for Brisbane, although their kamikaze style has produced more wins, fair play to them. But now that we have Kreuzer back and most of our best 22 to choose from (except mainly Docherty), the tide will change.

And the parking the bus is so 2017. Weitering, Jones and Plowman are rock ******* solid.

Hahaha you were parking two behind the ball to slow the tigers,port,swans scoring down be honest mate. Suns game you had a web with a player set up for the dump kick.
To say you have a great defence is a stretch.

 

[Mr_Plow]

Hahaha you were parking two behind the ball to slow the tigers,port,swans scoring down be honest mate. Suns game you had a web with a player set up for the dump kick.
To say you have a great defence is a stretch.

Don't all teams drop a player behind the ball to stem momentum?
Didn't see us do that against the Dogs?

 

[Farang83150]

Seems like Carlton have been rebuilding since Christ played full back for Nazareth, never stops.

 

[Mr_Plow]

Seems like Carlton have been rebuilding since Christ played full back for Nazareth, never stops.

Oh boy, look what we have here, a real meme pioneer...

 

[Gethelred]

And posters wonder why others give up on threads like this...

 

[TooBlue14]

Not sure about your defending scoring parts of your post
Round 1 Bris for 102 vs 58 against Eagles Carlton for 64 vs 97 against Richmond
Round 2 Bris for 107 vs 87 against North Carlton for 72 vs 88 against Port
Round 3 Bris for 107 vs 90 against Port Carlton for 74 vs 93 against Sydney
Round 4 Bris for 65 vs 112 against Dons Carlton 57 vs 59 against GC
Round 5 Bris for 61 vs 123 against Collingwood Carlton 101 vs 57 against Dogs

So, Attackwise: Brisbane has scored 3 100's in the first 3 round before suffering bad defeats. Carlton have only scored well once against the Dogs. So what you said was correct that Brisbane are much better at scoring than Carlton.

Defensewise: Brisbane was great the 1st round. The next 2 round against North and Port are much the same as what clubs scored against Carlton. Dons and Collingwood were big losses but Collingwood will probably be vying for the premiership this season and Dons have got their attack together, going to be plenty of big scores for them. Carlton have 3 scores of around 90 or over. And 2 small scores against which is good. So no, l wouldn't say Carlton is great defensively, only for the past 2 weeks and they were against GC (who can barely score 10 goals a game this season) and Dogs who were outside the 8 last season.

Our offence is coming together as of last week. I know only once but hopefully we do it more often. Dogs are very good at marvel and everyone is bagging them as being shit last week rather than given our full ground defence any credit. They only conceded 78 points to Collingwood the week before and pushed them. They then got a 9 day break into us off 7 and we showed them up on a fast deck.

We need to show it again though. Hawks are ripe for the picking. Heaps of niggles. Players coming back from injury and off a 6 day break.

FWIW

Defence: Carlton > Brisbane
Inside midfield: Carlton > Brisbane
Outside midfield: Carlton < Brisbane
Tall Forwards: Carlton >> Brisbane
Small Forward: Carlton << Brisbane

 

[Damon_3388]

Part of the problem is that "I think that player x is better than player y" is not a strong argument, so people inevitably move to arguing it from a numbers perspective; here's all the people who agree with me, it's more than those who agree with you! Not much stronger, really.

Nor is there really an objective measure of 'good player'-ness, either. You can quote stats until the cows come home, and someone will kindly come along and debunk the worth of each stat you use, until literally all you have is the evidence of your eyes.

That's all well and good, but stats are different from votes.

Stats are numerical measurements of output in various areas, votes are just one person or group's opinion of who played well, with a numerical value assigned to it.

 

[a mayes ing]

It's not a matter of zone or attack for Carlton, we actually have a balance which has kept us in every game this season. The same cannot be said for Brisbane, although their kamikaze style has produced more wins, fair play to them. But now that we have Kreuzer back and most of our best 22 to choose from (except mainly Docherty), the tide will change.

And the parking the bus is so 2017. Weitering, Jones and Plowman are rock ******* solid.

That was us for pretty much every game last season. At some point you have to start winning games which is what we are doing this year. We had 2 setbacks against Essendon and Collingwood which isn't out of the ordinary considering they are 2 really quality teams. You beat the dogs which doesn't say too much. If we lose to GC then that would be a setback.

 

[SickQwon]

Seems like Carlton have been rebuilding since Christ played full back for Nazareth, never stops.

3 years?

 

[M Malice]

Seems like Carlton have been rebuilding since Christ played full back for Nazareth, never stops.

Don't believe it, never happened, I want to see peer reviewed evidence.....or the relevant Footy Record.

 

[Mr_Plow]

Oldest quote in the book. Doesn't take into account that we were a ****ing bubble finals team until 2014, when it was clear that the list had stagnated. The same list that beat Richmond in a final the previous year.

**** out of here with the rebuilding for ages rhetoric, moron.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Oldest quote in the book. Doesn't take into account that we were a ******* bubble finals team until 2014, when it was clear that the list had stagnated. The same list that beat Richmond in a final the previous year.

**** out of here with the rebuilding for ages rhetoric, moron.

It's either 'how long the rebuild' or 'how many rebuilds'.

Nothing new. Nothing productive. Nothing relevant to the topic.

 

[a mayes ing]

Our offence is coming together as of last week. I know only once but hopefully we do it more often. Dogs are very good at marvel and everyone is bagging them as being shit last week rather than given our full ground defence any credit. They only conceded 78 points to Collingwood the week before and pushed them. They then got a 9 day break into us off 7 and we showed them up on a fast deck.

We need to show it again though. Hawks are ripe for the picking. Heaps of niggles. Players coming back from injury and off a 6 day break.

FWIW

Defence: Carlton > Brisbane
Inside midfield: Carlton > Brisbane
Outside midfield: Carlton < Brisbane
Tall Forwards: Carlton >> Brisbane
Small Forward: Carlton << Brisbane

Its funny that you said "defence" but you didn't say "offense" but different types of forwards. I am wondering if you said that because you knew that offense would go to us.

It is just bias from both of us but the way l would see it is:

Defence: Carlton > Brisbane
Midfield: Carlton = Brisbane
Attack: Carlton < Brisbane