Analysis The Rebuilds of Geelong and Richmond and their Future Prospects

[Mr Meow]

I think Richmond’s ‘rebuild’ is a couple of years ahead. Mainly because in 2024, I count 10 x players who are 30+ in 2024 who will be in Geelong’s best team - none of those are getting any better, and most are likely to fall away:

Hawkins
Tuohy
Danger
Stanley
Blicavs
Rohan
Duncan
Guthrie
Stewart
Cameron

Then there’s Bews who is probably easily replaceable with a youngster. But most of that list are prime movers for the Cats.

The Richmond equivalent is :
Martin
Grimes
Prestia
Lynch
Broad

There’s then Pickett (32yo) and McIntosh (30yo on April) who are pretty average and no great loss
and like Bews, easily replaceable.

Then there’s the proven quality players, B+ and above aged from 24-29yo… peak footballing years. Geelong’s is:

Atkins
Z Guthrie
Close
Henry
Stengle
Miers

The likes of Parfitt, Bowes haven’t shown themselves beyond B-grade recently. Even Henry is fortunate to be on this list.

Richmond’s B+ 24-29yo are:

Vlastuin
Nankervis
Short
Hopper
Rioli
Baker
Taranto
Bolton
Balta

I’ve left off Graham (despite second in B&F in 2021 his last 2 seasons have been average)
And Tyler Young (showed potential in 2023 but needs more runs on the board).

So that’s 10-5 30+ being relied on. And 9-6 Richmond’s way for quality 24-29yo.

Then there’s 23yo and below. Hard to judge many of these given little exposed form, but for those you’d have confidence in developing into B+ or better:

Geelong:
SDK
O Henry
Holmes

Richmond:
S Ryan
Gibcus

I’d give Geelong the edge based on exposed form for the 23yo and below, as I’m less confident in Ryan and Gibcus (injury worries) than I am in Geelong’s under 23yo brigade. Although IMO Richmond has a larger pool of youngsters with ‘potential’ than Geelong does.

There are many youngsters who’ve shown bits and pieces : Bruhn and Sonsie for example, but I’d have no confidence in declaring anyone else will be B+ or better.




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Agreed and it makes sense because this Geelong side peaked 2 years later than Richmond. 2023 was the next year disaster like Richmond 2021 and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Geelong's 2024/2025 follow the trend of Richmond's 2022/2023.

This Richmond crop of players for whatever reason haven't aged as well as Geelong's and the under 24's aren't serving much up so the group in between really has to carry the load a bit too much. They're crying out for a youngster to come in and kick 40+ goals like O.Henry for instance. I expect a few top 10 picks are needed and then 5 years to see those develop.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Agreed and it makes sense because this Geelong side peaked 2 years later than Richmond. 2023 was the next year disaster like Richmond 2021 and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Geelong's 2024/2025 follow the trend of Richmond's 2022/2023.

This Richmond crop of players for whatever reason haven't aged as well as Geelong's and the under 24's aren't serving much up so the group in between really has to carry the load a bit too much. They're crying out for a youngster to come in and kick 40+ goals like O.Henry for instance. I expect a few top 10 picks are needed and then 5 years to see those develop.

End of 2022 Cumberland looked like the answer. Kicked 19 goals in 8 games (his 9th game was as unused sub) including a bag of 5 and 2 x 3’s. Also had 8 x GA’s. Elite numbers for any medium forward let alone someone in their first 8-games.

Then an interrupted pre-season and he lost all confidence … hopefully Yze unlocks his potential as he’s the Fritsch/Henry type hybrid we need badly.

I’m also optimistic a new coach will get the best out of Balta and Bolton … we need those two to go from very good players to AA regulars … they’ve both got the ability and need to realise how good they could be. Hopefully Yze can get the best out of them.



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[juss]

I wonder if both teams think they're at the top 4 mark with a bounce back year next year or see it more as a building/development year for a few years down the track.

Part of doing a successful rebuild is recognising when and how you need it done. Misreading your position can set you back. I hope Richmond have recognised we aren't a premiership chance at the moment and manage the 2024 season accordingly.

I have a feeling Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

48

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

believes they can challenge in 2024, from the outside it feels like Geelong see 2023 as an outlier rather than an era coming to an end.

 

[My Tilly]

I wonder if both teams think they're at the top 4 mark with a bounce back year next year or see it more as a building/development year for a few years down the track.

Part of doing a successful rebuild is recognising when and how you need it done. Misreading your position can set you back. I hope Richmond have recognised we aren't a premiership chance at the moment and manage the 2024 season accordingly.

I have a feeling Chris Scott believes they can challenge in 2024, from the outside it feels like Geelong see 2023 as an outlier rather than an era coming to an end.

Geelong will be thereabouts again.
People ignoring the injuries the club sustained to the midfield. It completely crippled the season and to make matters worse, Cameron busted his shoulder by his own teammate and played hurt. Barely could lift his arm above his head in marking contests.
We will cop injuries again but they certainly won't be to the extent that was witnessed this past season.

Also feels like decent upside will come from a few players. Stengle looked lively during spurts in the middle out of necessity. Miers, Holmes, Z.Guthrie and De Koning are my tip to have an excellent year.

 

[juss]

Geelong will be thereabouts again.
People ignoring the injuries the club sustained to the midfield. It completely crippled the season and to make matters worse, Cameron busted his shoulder by his own teammate and played hurt. Barely could lift his arm above his head in marking contests.
We will cop injuries again but they certainly won't be to the extent that was witnessed this past season.

Also feels like decent upside will come from a few players. Stengle looked lively during spurts in the middle out of necessity. Miers, Holmes, Z.Guthrie and De Koning are my tip to have an excellent year.

I completely disagree Geelong are a genuine flag contender in 2024, although they could potentially reach finals.

I reckon the club feels the same way that you that they can challenge, but even if it's not linear, they are in the decline while there are other clubs on the upward trajectory.

 

[Giant Pete]

Geelong will be thereabouts again.
People ignoring the injuries the club sustained to the midfield. It completely crippled the season and to make matters worse, Cameron busted his shoulder by his own teammate and played hurt. Barely could lift his arm above his head in marking contests.
We will cop injuries again but they certainly won't be to the extent that was witnessed this past season.

Also feels like decent upside will come from a few players. Stengle looked lively during spurts in the middle out of necessity. Miers, Holmes, Z.Guthrie and De Koning are my tip to have an excellent year.

How did they compare against other teams injury lists this year?

 

[Footy Smarts]

I completely disagree Geelong are a genuine flag contender in 2024, although they could potentially reach finals.

I reckon the club feels the same way that you that they can challenge, but even if it's not linear, they are in the decline while there are other clubs on the upward trajectory.

You're probably right but that's exactly what everyone was saying after 2021 as well.

Realistically though we had probably 4 guys who played in the premiership and had good years from both form and fitness perspective in 2022. Miers, Atkins, Z Guthrie and O'Connor). And all of those were bottom 8 or so in our premiership team. So it was always likely to be a rough year given that.

I think the club reckons they've got 1 last crack with our old players. And we'll give it a red hot go. If it doesn't happen fair enough.

But I hope if we're out of contention half way through the year we don't do what Richmond did and continue to roll out the old guys for no benefit and leave the kids in the VFL.

 

[Shadow89]

How did they compare against other teams injury lists this year?

Not entirely sure, but the big one for mine was that out of every one of our players who played AFL this year, only 3 played every game for the season - Atkins, Zuthrie and Miers.

Everyone else was either injured once, or more than once (33 out of 36 players who played an AFL game).

Was diabolical.

 

[My Tilly]

I think Richmond’s ‘rebuild’ is a couple of years ahead. Mainly because in 2024, I count 10 x players who are 30+ in 2024 who will be in Geelong’s best team - none of those are getting any better, and most are likely to fall away:

Hawkins
Tuohy
Danger
Stanley
Blicavs
Rohan
Duncan
Guthrie
Stewart
Cameron

Then there’s Bews who is probably easily replaceable with a youngster. But most of that list are prime movers for the Cats.

The Richmond equivalent is :
Martin
Grimes
Prestia
Lynch
Broad

There’s then Pickett (32yo) and McIntosh (30yo on April) who are pretty average and no great loss
and like Bews, easily replaceable.

Then there’s the proven quality players, B+ and above aged from 24-29yo… peak footballing years. Geelong’s is:

Atkins
Z Guthrie
Close
Henry
Stengle
Miers

The likes of Parfitt, Bowes haven’t shown themselves beyond B-grade recently. Even Henry is fortunate to be on this list.

Richmond’s B+ 24-29yo are:

Vlastuin
Nankervis
Short
Hopper
Rioli
Baker
Taranto
Bolton
Balta

I’ve left off Graham (despite second in B&F in 2021 his last 2 seasons have been average)
And Tyler Young (showed potential in 2023 but needs more runs on the board).

So that’s 10-5 30+ being relied on. And 9-6 Richmond’s way for quality 24-29yo.

Then there’s 23yo and below. Hard to judge many of these given little exposed form, but for those you’d have confidence in developing into B+ or better:

Geelong:
SDK
O Henry
Holmes

Richmond:
S Ryan
Gibcus

I’d give Geelong the edge based on exposed form for the 23yo and below, as I’m less confident in Ryan and Gibcus (injury worries) than I am in Geelong’s under 23yo brigade. Although IMO Richmond has a larger pool of youngsters with ‘potential’ than Geelong does.

There are many youngsters who’ve shown bits and pieces : Bruhn and Sonsie for example, but I’d have no confidence in declaring anyone else will be B+ or better.




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Tuohy is no longer in Geelong's best team. He was pretty poor this past season and will struggle to even get to 15 games.
Stanley? You must be joking. The guy is finished and is merely there for an emergency. I expect Blicavs & Conway (Neale will play in there as well at times) to do the bulk of the rucking in 2024.
I'm also unsure about Rohan. He is now 32 years of age and whilst still very athletic, I think Geelong have found his immediate emplacement in Ollie Henry.

Geelong will get improvement from Miers, Bruhn, Stengle and Holmes. I also expect Clark to average 18-20 disposals in his first full season in midfield.
Also, keep tabs on the Irishman Mullin. He could be Geelong's biggest bolter next year as a wingman/midfielder.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You're probably right but that's exactly what everyone was saying after 2021 as well.

Realistically though we had probably 4 guys who played in the premiership and had good years from both form and fitness perspective in 2022. Miers, Atkins, Z Guthrie and O'Connor). And all of those were bottom 8 or so in our premiership team. So it was always likely to be a rough year given that.

I think the club reckons they've got 1 last crack with our old players. And we'll give it a red hot go. If it doesn't happen fair enough.

But I hope if we're out of contention half way through the year we don't do what Richmond did and continue to roll out the old guys for no benefit and leave the kids in the VFL.

Richmond were not out of contention half way through the year.

But managed to get the following games into these players all 25 or under at the end of the season:

23 games Baker, Bolton, Balta, Taranto

20 games Graham

19 games Young(first year) Ross

17 games Mansell

14 games Ryan

13 games Ralphsmith, Clarke, Miller

10 games M Rioli Jnr

9 games Cumberland

6 games Banks

4 games Bauer, Coulthard, Dow

3 games Sonsie

1 game Trezise, Brown.

So of the 529 games played for Richmond in 2023, 262 were played by players who finished the season 25 years old or younger. In other words roughly half. 118 of those matches were played by players within their first 4 years of being on an AFL list.

Given Geelong's season was barely alive longer than Richmond's in 2023, I wonder what Geelong's corresponding numbers of games played by players 25yo and younger were and how many of those were played by players within their first 4 years on an AFL list?

 

[Mr Meow]

Richmond were not out of contention half way through the year.

But managed to get the following games into these players all 25 or under at the end of the season:

23 games Baker, Bolton, Balta, Taranto

20 games Graham

19 games Ross Young

17 games Mansell

14 games Ryan

13 games Ralphsmith, Clarke, Miller

10 games M Rioli Jnr

9 games Cumberland

6 games Banks

4 games Bauer, Coulthard, Dow

3 games Sonsie

1 game Trezise, Brown.

So of the 529 games played for Richmond in 2023, 262 were played by players who finished the season 25 years old or younger. In other words roughly half. 118 of those matches were played by players within their first 4 years of being on an AFL list.

Given Geelong's season was barely alive longer than Richmond's in 2023, I wonder what Geelong's corresponding numbers of games played by players 25yo and younger were and how many of those were played by players within their first 4 years on an AFL list?

24 and under is a fairer base when looking at younger players (start of season). The first half of a good AFL career:

Richmond

23 games Balta, Bolton

19 games Ross

17 games Mansell

14 games Ryan, Young

13 games Ralphsmith, Clarke, Miller

10 games M Rioli Jnr

9 games Cumberland

6 games Banks

4 games Bauer, Coulthard, Dow

3 games Sonsie

1 game Trezise, Brown.


Geelong

23 games Miers, Z.Guthrie

22 games O.Henry

21 games Holmes

19 games De Koning, Stengle, Bruhn, Close

16 games Ratugolea

11 games J.Henry

9 games Parfitt

8 games Knevitt

6 games Mullin, Simpson

5 games Dempsey

3 games Neale

1 games Conway, Whyte, Clark, Chohesy

Final tallies

Richmond: 191 games

Geelong: 232 games

It seems like Geelong's list of 24 and unders with 19+ games in the bank in 2023 is a little more impressive. Miers, Zuthrie, O.Henry, SDK, Stengle, Bruhn and Close vs Bolton, Balta and Ross. Jack Henry would've been on that list bar for injury.

Some of Geelong's have been traded out or delisted but the games will merely be replaced with more to Clark, Conway, Neale, Dempsey and Knevitt.

It's a myth that Geelong aren't getting a good amount of games into kids.

 

[Fadge]

Richmond 'up since 2013', despite not winning a final until 2017, and not winning one since 2020?

 

[BF Tiger]

Forget the playing lists of both sides determining who has the better re-build. Right now the biggest factor is Adem Yze

Adem Yze

Age

47

Ht

187cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.2

5star

K

14.4

5star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

5.2

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

1.8

2star

M

0.6

1star

T

0.6

3star

. He might be the next Clarko or McRae… or he might be the next Neeld.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Richmond were not out of contention half way through the year.

But managed to get the following games into these players all 25 or under at the end of the season:

23 games Baker, Bolton, Balta, Taranto

20 games Graham

19 games Young(first year) Ross

17 games Mansell

14 games Ryan

13 games Ralphsmith, Clarke, Miller

10 games M Rioli Jnr

9 games Cumberland

6 games Banks

4 games Bauer, Coulthard, Dow

3 games Sonsie

1 game Trezise, Brown.

So of the 529 games played for Richmond in 2023, 262 were played by players who finished the season 25 years old or younger. In other words roughly half. 118 of those matches were played by players within their first 4 years of being on an AFL list.

Given Geelong's season was barely alive longer than Richmond's in 2023, I wonder what Geelong's corresponding numbers of games played by players 25yo and younger were and how many of those were played by players within their first 4 years on an AFL list?

Lol. I'm not sure that getting games into Taranto and Bolton is exactly playing the kids.

FWIW Richmond players 22 and under played 82 games last year. Geelong players 22 and under played 100 games.

And Richmond had 6 points after 7 games with your best player likely out for the season. Your season was done. It was delusional to think you could win the flag from there. But you rolled out guys like McIntosh and Pickett week in week out while your kids who finally got the odd game at the end of the year played VFL.

Geelong was in the 8 after round 19 and still got more games into kids than Richmond.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Lol. I'm not sure that getting games into Taranto and Bolton is exactly playing the kids.

FWIW Richmond players 22 and under played 82 games last year. Geelong players 22 and under played 100 games.

And Richmond had 6 points after 7 games with your best player likely out for the season. Your season was done. It was delusional to think you could win the flag from there. But you rolled out guys like McIntosh and Pickett week in week out while your kids who finally got the odd game at the end of the year played VFL.

Geelong was in the 8 after round 19 and still got more games into kids than Richmond.

Richmond player games for players 22 and under at season start 2023:

19 Ross
17 Mansell
14 Ryan
13 Ralphsmith, Clarke
10 Rioli
9 Cumberland
6 Banks
4 Bauer, Coulthard, Dow
3 Sonsie
1 Brown, Trezise

118 games. Of those, only Mansell had turned 23 by the end of the season.

Plus first year player Young, 24yo at season end, played 19 games.

So where did you get your figures from?

In any event, they are wrong. Richmond put either 118 or 101 games into players 22 or younger during 2023, depending on whether you take their age from the start or end of the season. And another 19 games into a first season 24 year old.

Either way this is higher than the figure you provided for Geelong, which I haven't even bothered to check.

The other thing you are wrong about is Richmond's season being over so early. Lynch was expected back late season before his foot took unexpectedly long to heal. The club is also not in the habit of writing its season off because one star player is missing from early season, see 2019 and Alex Rance.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Richmond player games for players 22 and under at season start 2023:

19 Ross
17 Mansell
14 Ryan
13 Ralphsmith, Clarke
10 Rioli
9 Cumberland
6 Banks
4 Bauer, Coulthard, Dow
3 Sonsie
1 Brown, Trezise

118 games. Of those, only Mansell had turned 23 by the end of the season.

Plus first year player Young, 24yo at season end, played 19 games.

So where did you get your figures from?

In any event, they are wrong. Richmond put either 118 or 101 games into players 22 or younger during 2023, depending on whether you take their age from the start or end of the season. And another 19 games into a first season 24 year old.

Either way this is higher than the figure you provided for Geelong, which I haven't even bothered to check.

The other thing you are wrong about is Richmond's season being over so early. Lynch was expected back late season before his foot took unexpectedly long to heal. The club is also not in the habit of writing its season off because one star player is missing from early season, see 2019 and Alex Rance.

For some reason Jack Ross has been taken off the footywire playing list so I missed him. Mansell is already 23.

So the numbers are basically the same for 22 and under.

Players currently 21 and under looks ugly for Richmond though. 83 games played in total. 172 played in total by Geelong's players.

 

[Shadow89]

Richmond were not out of contention half way through the year.

But managed to get the following games into these players all 25 or under at the end of the season:

23 games Baker, Bolton, Balta, Taranto

20 games Graham

19 games Young(first year) Ross

17 games Mansell

14 games Ryan

13 games Ralphsmith, Clarke, Miller

10 games M Rioli Jnr

9 games Cumberland

6 games Banks

4 games Bauer, Coulthard, Dow

3 games Sonsie

1 game Trezise, Brown.

So of the 529 games played for Richmond in 2023, 262 were played by players who finished the season 25 years old or younger. In other words roughly half. 118 of those matches were played by players within their first 4 years of being on an AFL list.

Given Geelong's season was barely alive longer than Richmond's in 2023, I wonder what Geelong's corresponding numbers of games played by players 25yo and younger were and how many of those were played by players within their first 4 years on an AFL list?

Alright I'll play this strange game with your odd criteria:

23 games, Zuthrie and Miers
22 games, O. Henry
21 games, Holmes, Close
19 games, T. Stengle, Bruhn, S. De Koning
17 games, Bowes
16 games, Ratugolea
11 games, J. Henry
9 games, Parfitt
8 games, Knevitt
6 games, S. Simpson, Mullin
5 games, Dempsey
3 games, S. Neale
1 game, Clohesy, Conway, J. Clark

251 (Geelong) vs 262 (Richmond) for 25 and under, end of season 2023 = +11 for Richmond

106 (Geelong) vs 101 (Richmond) for 22 and under (bolded), end of season 2023 = +5 for Geelong

There's virtually no difference between our teams - even if you want to arbitrarily include Mansell as well in the latter category -, as most have advised in this thread before you came in with your usual 'anti-Geelong' shtick.

Not to mention your analysis fails to include the worst injury list we've had in a long, long time - where only 3 out of 36 players who played an AFL game in 2023 played every game.

All of Close, SDK, O. Henry, Stengle, J. Henry, Holmes and Bowes, would have played full games if available as Best 23 players this year. Collectively, we lost an extra 30 games from that above group, from injury alone.

It's all superfluous though, as it's blindly obvious to most that Richmond and Geelong's lists are in very similar positions - hence our age profiles, ladder finish, and neutral ratings from other team's supporters. Only difference is, we have two picks in the Top 25 with a Top 10 pick included, and your first pick isn't until 31. Everything else is very similar across the board.

 

[Partridge]

The other thing you are wrong about is Richmond's season being over so early. Lynch was expected back late season before his foot took unexpectedly long to heal. The club is also not in the habit of writing its season off because one star player is missing from early season, see 2019 and Alex Rance.

Yeah, it's not uncommon for teams to miss an established senior player. Guthrie missed most of this year for us. If you went through every team there'd be no shortage of examples.

 

[Partridge]

Tuohy is no longer in Geelong's best team. He was pretty poor this past season and will struggle to even get to 15 games.
Stanley? You must be joking. The guy is finished and is merely there for an emergency. I expect Blicavs & Conway (Neale will play in there as well at times) to do the bulk of the rucking in 2024.
I'm also unsure about Rohan. He is now 32 years of age and whilst still very athletic, I think Geelong have found his immediate emplacement in Ollie Henry.

Geelong will get improvement from Miers, Bruhn, Stengle and Holmes. I also expect Clark to average 18-20 disposals in his first full season in midfield.
Also, keep tabs on the Irishman Mullin. He could be Geelong's biggest bolter next year as a wingman/midfielder.

Still think Stanley is the preferred number one ruck, and by some distance. It isn't Blicavs, and Conway and Neale still need development. Next year hopefully they'll get a lot more experience.

Agree completely about Tuohy but Scott loves him. Don't see him dropping him anytime soon.

 

[Grrr]

Richmond are hard to read. By his own measure and by what Cotchin has written in his book, Hardwick had not only lost himself but also the players, even the rusted on ones like Cotchin himself.

Richmond played so many role players last year because they fitted Hardwick's gameplan. Mansell played 17 games as a defensive forward, whatever that is, it seems it is a uniquely Hardwick position, and did virtually nothing. Pickett forward all year because we lost Lynch, and did nothing. Graham, no preseason did nothing. Cotchin, average, Riewoldt's last half of the season, nothing. etc. etc

Not only that he crucified talented players like Cumberland who has x factor to burn but obviously didn't play Hardwick's uber defensive requirements well enough. Rioli junior got nowhere near the ball but boy can he chase arse. etc. etc.

A new coach always breathes life into a side and boy do Richmond need it. Lynch back will be an enormous lift, Gibcus is going to be a player as well, but the main thing is there will be a best 22 played on merit not on outdated gameplans.

 

[Partridge]

I completely disagree Geelong are a genuine flag contender in 2024, although they could potentially reach finals.

I reckon the club feels the same way that you that they can challenge, but even if it's not linear, they are in the decline while there are other clubs on the upward trajectory.

I don't see it; we looked absolutely miles off the pace at the end of this season even before they rested a few players for the final round. The St.Kilda and Fremantle losses were horrendous, with everything on the line too. Simply too many poor performances from the start of the season through to the end. Too many getting old and declining, and too many not ready - yet - to take over. Some very promising signs from youngsters but they still need time to develop and grow.

Hopefully they can make finals but whatever has happened in previous years is irrelevant now.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Alright I'll play this strange game with your odd criteria:

23 games, Zuthrie and Miers
22 games, O. Henry
21 games, Holmes, Close
19 games, T. Stengle, Bruhn, S. De Koning
17 games, Bowes
16 games, Ratugolea
11 games, J. Henry
9 games, Parfitt
8 games, Knevitt
6 games, S. Simpson, Mullin
5 games, Dempsey
3 games, S. Neale
1 game, Clohesy, Conway, J. Clark

251 (Geelong) vs 262 (Richmond) for 25 and under, end of season 2023 = +11 for Richmond

106 (Geelong) vs 101 (Richmond) for 22 and under (bolded), end of season 2023 = +5 for Geelong

There's virtually no difference between our teams - even if you want to arbitrarily include Mansell as well in the latter category -, as most have advised in this thread before you came in with your usual 'anti-Geelong' shtick.

Not to mention your analysis fails to include the worst injury list we've had in a long, long time - where only 3 out of 36 players who played an AFL game in 2023 played every game.

All of Close, SDK, O. Henry, Stengle, J. Henry, Holmes and Bowes, would have played full games if available as Best 23 players this year. Collectively, we lost an extra 30 games from that above group, from injury alone.

It's all superfluous though, as it's blindly obvious to most that Richmond and Geelong's lists are in very similar positions - hence our age profiles, ladder finish, and neutral ratings from other team's supporters. Only difference is, we have two picks in the Top 25 with a Top 10 pick included, and your first pick isn't until 31. Everything else is very similar across the board.

Maybe don't jump on me, I was merely correcting some incorrect things Footy Smarts posted about Richmond in his post quoted below:

You're probably right but that's exactly what everyone was saying after 2021 as well.

Realistically though we had probably 4 guys who played in the premiership and had good years from both form and fitness perspective in 2022. Miers, Atkins, Z Guthrie and O'Connor). And all of those were bottom 8 or so in our premiership team. So it was always likely to be a rough year given that.

I think the club reckons they've got 1 last crack with our old players. And we'll give it a red hot go. If it doesn't happen fair enough.

But I hope if we're out of contention half way through the year we don't do what Richmond did and continue to roll out the old guys for no benefit and leave the kids in the VFL.

It is clear from your post and mine that Richmond did not eschew selection of young players to any greater extent than Footy Smarts own team, Geelong.

It was just straight out incorrect for him to say we were out of contention half way through the year. After 18 rounds Richmond were 9-1-8 level on Premiership points with Geelong with 5 matches left. One of the benefits of supporting clubs like Richmond and Geelong is they don't give up trying to contend until it is mathematically impossible. This was just a wrong statement and it needed to be corrected.

And sure you guys had injuries that meant some younger players played fewer games. You are not Robinson Crusoe there either. Richmond lost Gibcus for the whole season, a second year player rated the best of our youngsters. Brown had an interrupted early season that likely delayed his debut. Rioli Jnr had hamstring troubles that cost him quite a lot of games. Draftees Kaleb Smith(whole season) and Campbell(all bar a small handful of VFL games) missed a lot of footy. For whatever reason Sonsie and Cumberland were off, both were relatively excellent in 2022.

Both clubs need their better youngsters to come on in order to contend, but it is wrong to say or imply Richmond has been relatively reluctant to play our younger players.

Our last finals team contained:

1st year draftees 18-19yo: Gibcus, Sonsie
2nd year draftee 19-20yo: M Rioli Jnr
21yo: Cumberland
22-23 yo's: Miller, Balta, Bolton

So our youth was well represented.

 

[Footy Smarts]

It is clear from your post and mine that Richmond did not eschew selection of young players to any greater extent than Footy Smarts own team, Geelong.

Come on now. Richmond fans are trying to include Taranto and Bolton as kids so it doesn't look so bad.

Look at actual kids. Games played last year by players currently 21 or under:

Geelong - 81
Richmond - 38

Not even close.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Richmond player games for players 22 and under at season start 2023:

19 Ross
17 Mansell
14 Ryan
13 Ralphsmith, Clarke
10 Rioli
9 Cumberland
6 Banks
4 Bauer, Coulthard, Dow
3 Sonsie
1 Brown, Trezise

118 games. Of those, only Mansell had turned 23 by the end of the season.

Plus first year player Young, 24yo at season end, played 19 games.

So where did you get your figures from?

In any event, they are wrong. Richmond put either 118 or 101 games into players 22 or younger during 2023, depending on whether you take their age from the start or end of the season. And another 19 games into a first season 24 year old.

Either way this is higher than the figure you provided for Geelong, which I haven't even bothered to check.

The other thing you are wrong about is Richmond's season being over so early. Lynch was expected back late season before his foot took unexpectedly long to heal. The club is also not in the habit of writing its season off because one star player is missing from early season, see 2019 and Alex Rance.

You changed the goal posts. I clearly said players currently 22 or under. Ross and Mansell are 23. So I was right saying 82 games by players currently 22 and under.

 

[Giant Pete]

Lol.. this is great.