Analysis The Rebuilds of Geelong and Richmond and their Future Prospects

[Freomaniac]

That's spot on. At Richmond if he could have forced his way into the team 3 flags awaited him. At Geelong, $700k a year and AA honours. All about culture like you say.

Tigers were gonna win that 2019 grand final vs GWS regardless lookin' back at it. Tigers could of replaced any bloke on the bench and replace him with Tyson Stengle and let him sit on the bench the whole game. It wouldn't of mattered

 

[Freomaniac]

• I'm talking 20 years not 1, injury luck balances out over two decades but we do a better job of managing workload than most teams IMO. We missed finals last year, which allowed us to have a longer pre-season and we've taken full advantage of that.
• I'm talking 20 years not 1, the age profile ebbs and flows over time and hasn't meant much, we are seeing the average age declining right now for Geelong....so what.
• Unique dimensions like say the SCG? And with every GF at the MCG, you always have a home game in the GF, that's a real advantage for you guys. You are so lucky to have home games when it really matters, we aren't so lucky.
• Scott didn't design any rules but we have seen rules changed to combat methods to try and beat us. That's because we're so often the team to beat. It's gone the other way too, 3rd man up (significantly blunted the impact of Blicavs) a good example.
• By a margin, we've had the toughest average draw in the league over the last 20 years due to our consistent success.....It hasn't changed much for us. It's been a good draw this year but I'm talking 20 years NOT 1 so draw isn't really a factor

True

 

[Freomaniac]

You guys finished 13th last year that’s why you’ve got such a sweet fixture.

Doesn't mean the cats get favoured every season.

Carlton won 2 finals and made a preliminary final in 2023 , yet got an easier draw than the 12th placed cats.

Mind you, the cats were not that terrible in 2023. 10 wins, 12 losses and a draw. 12th placed on the ladder.

They lost a few games by 12 points or less. Had they won 2 or 3 more games, that's another 5th to 8th spot.

 

[Freomaniac]

Maybe your club should try it some time.

North Melbourne have got a long way to go from their position to be flag contenders. I think they will by the end of the decade.

As a dockers fan, I hope we get a premiership at least once in my lifetime.

Port Adelaide fans think once Hinkley is sacked, they will win a flag.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Why have Richmond not announced delistings? Surely they're not keeping guys like Dow and Cumberland who couldn't hold their spot in the worst team in the comp in their 5th season on the list.

 

[PhatBoy]

Ollie Henry’s ‘really poor’ home and away season that still saw him kick multiple goals 9 times and 32 goals - and 13 assists - as a 21 year old (more or less - he turned 22 two weeks before it finished).


If that’s ’really poor’ for a non-key forward is, playing behind the likes of Cameron and Stengle I’d hate to see what some other players rate at.

Let’s look at…. Say, Bailey Fritsch, who aside from his disgusting hair was actually lauded in some circles for how he played this year. He was the first option for Melbourne in many ways; he’s almost the same size as Henry, he’s five years older at 27, and in 23 games he contributed 41 goals and 12 assists. 53 goals in total in 23 games, Henry had 45 goals contributed - in a very poor home and away season, apparently, in 21 games. And in one of those games he was subbed out….. against the 2-21 Tigers just after quarter time with a hamstring injury.

He also missed the game against Essendon which we won comfortably, and the game against Sydney, and only played less than a quarter against Hawthorn in a game we won easily, and a quarter of the win over Collingwood. Games where he was used as the sub after he returned from injury.

Fritsch played, aside from 57 per cent time on ground in the final round against Collingwood, virtually the entirety of every match this year aside from regulation spells on the bench for a quick rest.


Now I’m guessing, MR, as someone who adheres so STRICTLY to data gained from here there and everywhere, as well as your insistence on removing the centrefold from ancient copies of Hustler and replacing it with a printout or a Player Ratingz spreadsheet, with a player like Jack Henry

38

Jack Henry

Age

26

Ht

192cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.3

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

142.6

2star

D

8.6

2star

K

6.7

3star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.1

3star

MG

142.6

3star

D

9.6

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

2.6

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.0

4star

, all you’ve done is have a quick look at games played and goals kicked for the express purpose of your post in this thread.

Henry had a perfectly decent season for a player of his age whenever he was able to build any continuity.

The only thing lacking in his game is some extra work off the ball as his defence in forward 50 needs work.

 

[sr36]

Interesting to have a look at the performances of the much feted "young" Geelong players in the finals series, particularly in the competitive Preliminary Final.

So focussing on players 24yo or under.....

24yo Mullin - Very quiet QF v Port rating 2.2, but I thought he seemed to stand up ok in the PF v Brisbane where he rated a respectable 9.1. That last performance will give him some hope for the future, but overall so far at AFL level his performances have been weak. His average rating in 2024 was 5.46 with 74% time on ground.

23yo Sam DeKoning - Overlooked for both finals when reported to be fit and available, rated what on the face of it looks a respectable 9.31 in 2024, but this was boosted by playing roughly 1/3rd of his TOG in the ruck, where he was trounced by opponents performing much stronger. He was bordering on poor in defence. The Cats will be hoping missing selection in finals will spur him on to a better level. With his body type he should have firther upside at this age, but has not proven the prodigious talent cats fans thought they were seeing develop in 2022.

22yo Bruhn - The Cats traded out a pick that ended up at 21 for this bloke. GWS duly snapped up Darcy Jones with that pick. he played 17 games at 61% TOG this season so his durability and stamina looks a bit of an issue at this point. His average rating in 2024 was 9.32, which is not dire but is pretty weak for a starting midfielder. His defensive numbers look ok but his offensive work seems a non event at this stage of proceedings. Rated a decent 13.4 in the QF but went missing with a 10 disposal 4.6 rating in the PF against much stronger opposition. That performance does not look good, but at 22yo still has potential upside. Weak in contested possessions and especially hard ball gets.

22yo Shannon Neale - 4 years in the system now, but should still be plenty of upside there. At times I look at this guy and think I can see a footballer. His player rating of 6.67 from 80% TOG in 2024 is on the low side even for a young key forward, but by no means dire. It is boosted by spending a little time in the ruck. He rated 7.1 in the QF and a poor 2.4 in the PF. There is certainly nothing to write home about at this stage for Neale.

22yo O Henry - Has had a really poor H&A season capped by a very strong finals series. His season average player rating is 6.81. Cats gave up Cooper Stephens + a pick that ended up at 28(Jakob Ryan) in the 2022 draft to get Henry. Releasing Stephens won't embarass the Cats as he has just been delisted by the Hawks. Back to Henry, his finals ratings were 12.0 and 15.4 which were strong, as he recorded 7 goals + assists, 27 disposals and 16 contested possessions across the 2 matches. Very encouraging finals performances, but with the poor overall season, we need to reserve judgement until we can see which of the 2 indicators is more true.

22yo Holmes - Has had a tremendous season franked by 2 very strong finals performances. Has some weaknesses he could tidy up with his disposal, but overall the Cats would be delighted with how he is progressing, though maybe slightly concerned about his hamstring issues, given they have somehow emerged twice in his last 2 Preliminary Finals.

21yo Dempsey - Very solid season for a winger, averaging 9.82 player rating overall from a high 87% TOG. Gets involved in a fair bit of the Cats scoring. Had a reasonable QF rating 10.3 but not really a factor in the PF, and doesn't exactly rush into oncoming traffic when it is his turn, which he will need to fix if he is going to do better in finals against strong opposition.

21yo Humphries - Cats will be rapt with his 11 games averaging 10.95 player rating. And 2 finals of 10.5 and 12.4. Looks a great get with a late draft pick, but I will reserve more definite judgement until he gets through a whole season after others teams have gone to college on him.

21yo Conway - young ruck not seen in finals due to injury and likely wouldn't have been selected anyway. Give him 2-3 years yet before we can start judging him fairly.

20yo Jhye Clark - Pick 8 in the 2022 draft. Didn't look like being selected in the finals. Very young still but probably fair to say he is not living up to anywhere near his billing at this point of his career. Cats will be concerned, but a long way to go for him.

So of these players, only Holmes has had a good whole home & away season + 2 good finals. Henry played really well in the finals, but had a poor home and away season. Dempsey had a decent home and away season but was a bit disappointing in that PF. DeKoning, Neale, Mullin, Clark, Bruhn, Conway....still good upside in most of these guys but in 2024 none of them has had much impact. Humphries very good but only 11 games in so see how he goes next year.

Overall though, I am not sure the Cats youngsters are progressing quite as well as is generally believed.

That's a fair chunk of a prelim team that were 'whiskers' away from a GF. They're going alright.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I thought I'd check the games played by younger players for each team.

If you look at games played by players 22 and under at the start of the year (Cumberland and SDK the oldest that qualify for each team).

Richmond - 156 games

Cumberland (7 games)
Coulthard (2)
Dow (17)
Ralphsmith (18)
Blight (3)
Bauer (3)
Trezise (7)
Rioli (9)
Sonsie (14)
Banks (15)
Gibcus (2)
Brown (18)
Clarke (1)
Green (6)
Smith (4)
Campbell (21)
McAuliffe (9)

Geelong - 162 games

De Koning (19)
Bruhn (17)
Neale (15)
O Henry (23)
Holmes (25)
Dempsey (25)
Knevitt (4)
Humphries (11)
Conway (5)
Clark (15)
Clohesy (2)
O'Sullivan (1)

Two things stand out.

Firstly Geelong managed to get more games into young players while making a prelim than Richmond did while finishing bottom.

Secondly there's almost nobody in that list for Richmond that's locked in and certain to be best 22 next year. Guys like Campbell and Brown showed a bit, Rioli improved and Ralphsmith showed consistency. But it wouldn't be a shock if any of those guys found themselves back in the VFL next year.

In comparison it would be a massive shock if any of Holmes, Dempsey, O Henry, Bruhn, SDK, Humphries and Neale (only him and Cameron as tall forwards on the list now) played VFL next year outside of injury.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Nope, we are bog average.

But I’m glad we both agree on Tanner.

Hang on, you think the list of genuine young superstars Richmond have are just bog average!?

Not sure I can trust your opinion on Bruhn anymore.

 

[Rich01]

Hang on, you think the list of genuine young superstars Richmond have are just bog average!?

Not sure I can trust your opinion on Bruhn anymore.

Hmmm… maybe some Richmond supporters have the same deluded hope on them as Geelong supporters do with Bruin and Bowes.

I put them all in the same bucket though Ricky.
They aren’t the answer.

 

[PhatBoy]

When the big boys were up and running it really showed how shallow your midfield is with Bruin and Bowes going through it. Coach Scott’s aim should be to get both Tanner and Jack out of the middle.

Over to you Mr Wells.

Bowes probably as he’s never likely to get much better than he is. Bruhn only turned 22 this year.

People get fooled by this idea when an absolute A+++ early 20s star comes along - a Daicos for example, or a Selwood in days gone by - that a player must be truly elite by a certain point, or they are never GOING to be elite.

We have this caveat for forwards; ‘oh it takes time for KPPs to develop and learn their craft and hit their peak years.’

That’s bullshit. Not the KPP part - of course that’s true - but the part where it applies exclusively to them.

The fact is that there are only a handful of KPPs in each team so the likelihood of there being an 18-21 year old KPP who is a ready made star is unlikely.

There are 7-8 mid fielders and another few half-backs/forwards that rotate there in every side, so that means there is a HUGE scope for there to be a player or two in that age bracket in every second team that IS a ready made star. It fools people into thinking that somehow midfielders and non-KPP guys should be better earlier. I don’t believe they really develop much quicker if at all - there’s just a lot more of them so there are more examples of it happening.

 

[sr36]

Yep, we need quality mids, just like you guys.
Lucky we will rebuild through the draft. Hopefully we pick the right ones.

Both the Cats and Tigers won’t win anything soon with players of Bruins ilk in their starting midfield lineup.

I would have thought that Holmes, Danger and Atkins was their best 22 starting midfield. He's an OK youngster to have rotating through there. Smith will be good addition for them.

 

[Rich01]

I would have thought that Holmes, Danger and Atkins was their best 22 starting midfield. He's an OK youngster to have rotating through there. Smith will be good addition for them.

I didn’t really see them have any impact on the weekend when the whips were cracking.

And yep, as role players I think they could be serviceable. But not the answer in the midfield.

 

[sr36]

I didn’t really see them have any impact on the weekend when the whips were cracking.

And yep, as role players I think they could be serviceable. But not the answer in the midfield.

I do agree. I think they're a quality midfielder short and think it's unlikely that little Tanner becomes that - I might be biased by his looks though as he always looks like he's about to cry, with a cuddle needed from mum.

 

[Footy Smarts]

The Bruhn obsession is weird.

He's just turned 22. He was top 30 in the league for clearances and top 20 in the league for centre clearances this year despite playing very low game time.

His handballing is good, his kicking is superb and his defensive game is solid.

He needs to improve his running capacity and ability to impact the game away from stoppages. And he really needs to stop picking up niggly injuries.

But he's currently a decent enough player. With a full season he would've pushed top 10 in the B&F for a team that finished 3rd. If he can improve again next year there's no reason he can't become a very good inside mid.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I didn’t really see them have any impact on the weekend when the whips were cracking.

And yep, as role players I think they could be serviceable. But not the answer in the midfield.

Missed the goal assist to Blicavs in the 3rd and that he was the guy who delivered inside 50 for the goal to put us in front in the last?

Clearly he was carrying an injury in the prelim. He was seen hobbling at half time and then spent over half the 3rd quarter on the bench despite Holmes also being off injured.

It's really bizarre to write off an inside midfielder who has just turned 22, has a lot of physical development left and is already a decent player with obvious major strengths (clearances and kicking).

 

[Rich01]

Missed the goal assist to Blicavs in the 3rd and that he was the guy who delivered inside 50 for the goal to put us in front in the last?

Clearly he was carrying an injury in the prelim. He was seen hobbling at half time and then spent over half the 3rd quarter on the bench despite Holmes also being off injured.

It's really bizarre to write off an inside midfielder who has just turned 22, has a lot of physical development left and is already a decent player with obvious major strengths (clearances and kicking).

As I said, I’m not writing him off.

think he will end up being a solid contributor for you guys. But if he’s a starting mid for the Cats, then you guys aren’t winning anything. He’s not the next coming of Danger or Joel.

I saw his goal assist. But I also saw Neales 12 clearances and McLuggs 6 with a goal. When Holmes went off the game turned, because the focus was on Bowes and Tanner in the middle.

Get two gun mids to start with Holmes and you guys are back in contention. Play Bowes and Tanner as starting mids and you won’t win a flag.

It’s not a troll, but being pretty honest to say that those two can’t compete against the Warner, Heeney, Gulden or the Neale, McLugg, Dunkley or the Green, Kelly, Callaghan combos on a consistent basis.

 

[Footy Smarts]

As I said, I’m not writing him off.

think he will end up being a solid contributor for you guys. But if he’s a starting mid for the Cats, then you guys aren’t winning anything. He’s not the next coming of Danger or Joel.

That pretty much sounds like you're writing him off.

I saw his goal assist. But I also saw Neales 12 clearances and McLuggs 6 with a goal. When Holmes went off the game turned, because the focus was on Bowes and Tanner in the middle.

Bruhn played less than 50% game time in the 3rd quarter and only attended 2 of the 8 centre bounces. This was despite Holmes being off injured for much of it. There's no way we would do that if he was right. The fact this came after he was hobbling at half time suggests he was carrying some significant injury.

Bowes only attended 2 centre bounces in the 3rd quarter and only 5 for the game.

I don't rate Bowes as a mid. He's a useful back flanker.

But it's weird to put the blame for the 3rd quarter where we were smashed from centre clearances on 2 guys who were barely in midfield when we were being overrun.

Maybe look at Stanley, Atkins and Dangerfield who attended 19 centre bounces between them rather than Bowes and Bruhn who attended 4?

 

[Romeoh1]

Yep, we need quality mids, just like you guys.
Lucky we will rebuild through the draft. Hopefully we pick the right ones.

Both the Cats and Tigers won’t win anything soon with players of Bruins ilk in their starting midfield lineup.

We were about 2 minutes off making the gf- things are looking vg.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I thought I'd check the games played by younger players for each team.

If you look at games played by players 22 and under at the start of the year (Cumberland and SDK the oldest that qualify for each team).

Richmond - 156 games

Cumberland (7 games)
Coulthard (2)
Dow (17)
Ralphsmith (18)
Blight (3)
Bauer (3)
Trezise (7)
Rioli (9)
Sonsie (14)
Banks (15)
Gibcus (2)
Brown (18)
Clarke (1)
Green (6)
Smith (4)
Campbell (21)
McAuliffe (9)

Geelong - 162 games

De Koning (19)
Bruhn (17)
Neale (15)
O Henry (23)
Holmes (25)
Dempsey (25)
Knevitt (4)
Humphries (11)
Conway (5)
Clark (15)
Clohesy (2)
O'Sullivan (1)

Two things stand out.

Firstly Geelong managed to get more games into young players while making a prelim than Richmond did while finishing bottom.

Secondly there's almost nobody in that list for Richmond that's locked in and certain to be best 22 next year. Guys like Campbell and Brown showed a bit, Rioli improved and Ralphsmith showed consistency. But it wouldn't be a shock if any of those guys found themselves back in the VFL next year.

In comparison it would be a massive shock if any of Holmes, Dempsey, O Henry, Bruhn, SDK, Humphries and Neale (only him and Cameron as tall forwards on the list now) played VFL next year outside of injury.

This is deceiving. The reason Richmond didn't get more games into players on that list in 2024 is simply that they were injured.

Bauer had a couple of decent games at the end of the season but he missed over half the season injured and then needed to build his match fitness before playing AFL.

Trezise had a medium term injury followed by a concussion, and would likely have played a few more games at least if he had an uninterrupted season.

Maurice Rioli would have played every game in the AFL team if not injured.

Gibcus ditto.

Brown played injured for several weeks later in the season before being mothballed with a few games to go so he could get both shoulders operated on. Obviously would have played to a better elvel and more games barring the injuries.

Clarke did his ACL when working his way into fitness after missing most of the pre-season, again, with a clear run, no reason he doesn't play more than half the season.

Smith was reported to be on limited training after missing the year before with foot fractures. So they shielded him from too much AFL level exposure.

We also only saw a couple of late season VFL games from fawcett due to injury. And our msd key forward Gray played a few very promising games at VFL level, then...injured.

So it adds nothing meaningful to the discussion to say Richmond didn't get as many games into their u/23's as Geelong, everybody can see that was due almost entirely to injuries. And as we have discussed before, it depends where you put the line. Richmond got 40 games into players still in their first 2 years out of their natural draft year. Geelong only got 19 games into players in that age range.

We can start to judge the cats youngsters, because we have seen the better ones playing consistently, they had few injuries, and they are playing in a stable mature team.

There is no way to fairly judge the Tigers younger cohort based on 2024, because they had loads of injuries, and when they did play it was in a team with no stability at all.

Richmond has plenty of young talent, we just can't get a line on how good they are going to be at this point, and obviously Gibcus and Clarke will be behind in 2025 as well. Hopefully the rest of them can get a good run at it and show us what they can do.

 

[Footy Smarts]

This is deceiving. The reason Richmond didn't get more games into players on that list in 2024 is simply that they were injured.

Bauer had a couple of decent games at the end of the season but he missed over half the season injured and then needed to build his match fitness before playing AFL.

Trezise had a medium term injury followed by a concussion, and would likely have played a few more games at least if he had an uninterrupted season.

Maurice Rioli would have played every game in the AFL team if not injured.

Gibcus ditto.

Brown played injured for several weeks later in the season before being mothballed with a few games to go so he could get both shoulders operated on. Obviously would have played to a better elvel and more games barring the injuries.

Clarke did his ACL when working his way into fitness after missing most of the pre-season, again, with a clear run, no reason he doesn't play more than half the season.

Smith was reported to be on limited training after missing the year before with foot fractures. So they shielded him from too much AFL level exposure.

We also only saw a couple of late season VFL games from fawcett due to injury. And our msd key forward Gray played a few very promising games at VFL level, then...injured.

So it adds nothing meaningful to the discussion to say Richmond didn't get as many games into their u/23's as Geelong, everybody can see that was due almost entirely to injuries. And as we have discussed before, it depends where you put the line. Richmond got 40 games into players still in their first 2 years out of their natural draft year. Geelong only got 19 games into players in that age range.

We can start to judge the cats youngsters, because we have seen the better ones playing consistently, they had few injuries, and they are playing in a stable mature team.

There is no way to fairly judge the Tigers younger cohort based on 2024, because they had loads of injuries, and when they did play it was in a team with no stability at all.

Richmond has plenty of young talent, we just can't get a line on how good they are going to be at this point, and obviously Gibcus and Clarke will be behind in 2025 as well. Hopefully the rest of them can get a good run at it and show us what they can do.

Solid wall of text that I'm not going to read.nI take it you think they all would've played a lot more but for injuries?

Let's check your first 2. Bauer and Trezise both played 8 VFL games before being promoted. Doesn't exactly look like Richmond were in a hurry to get them in there.

Plenty of them only got games because of injuries to your older players too. I doubt Sonsie, Dow, McAuliffe, Cumberland, Banks, etc play anywhere near that many games if you had a decent injury run.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

We were about 2 minutes off making the gf- things are looking vg.

Geelong were playing a team who finished the home and away season 5th, and were coming off a gut buster the week before and were within a kick of being eliminated at semi-final stage. And Geelong entered the game fresh, with virtually a full list available and playing in their own state on their second home ground.

4 players over 31 were amongst your 10 highest rated players in the Preliminary Final.

Geelong are entitled to be pleased with their season overall, but they required a lot to go right for that to occur - easy draw, caught several decent teams like Hawks(first time), Bulldogs and Lions in season worst form, and other teams with key players missing, and had a great run with significant injuries.

Also, I think the performance after rd 7 tells the truth about Geelong in 2024. 9 wins 9 losses, 104% in the balance of the home and away season. And 3 of the wins were v cellar dwellers and a few other wins were v teams with key players missing, Collingwood, Adelaide for eg.

So the cats form was good early but after rd 7 that form looks decidedly mid table.

 

[PhatBoy]

Geelong were playing a team who finished the home and away season 5th, and were coming off a gut buster the week before and were within a kick of being eliminated at semi-final stage. And Geelong entered the game fresh, with virtually a full list available and playing in their own state on their second home ground.

4 players over 31 were amongst your 10 highest rated players in the Preliminary Final.

Geelong are entitled to be pleased with their season overall, but they required a lot to go right for that to occur - easy draw, caught several decent teams like Hawks(first time), Bulldogs and Lions in season worst form, and other teams with key players missing, and had a great run with significant injuries.

Also, I think the performance after rd 7 tells the truth about Geelong in 2024. 9 wins 9 losses, 104% in the balance of the home and away season. And 3 of the wins were v cellar dwellers and a few other wins were v teams with key players missing, Collingwood, Adelaide for eg.

So the cats form was good early but after rd 7 that form looks decidedly mid table.

We caught the Bulldogs in season worst form when they’d just won back to back games by 8 and 13 goals?

That must have been news to Luke Beverage at the time.

Brisbane’s season worst form when we beat them was also on the back of two consecutive wins, the second of which was against Melbourne, in Melbourne, who were 4-1 at the time.


You don’t even bother any more do you

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Solid wall of text that I'm not going to read.nI take it you think they all would've played a lot more but for injuries?

Let's check your first 2. Bauer and Trezise both played 8 VFL games before being promoted. Doesn't exactly look like Richmond were in a hurry to get them in there.

Plenty of them only got games because of injuries to your older players too. I doubt Dodge, Dow, McAuliffe, Cumberland, Banks, etc play anywhere near that many games if you had a decent injury run.

Regardless, Gibcus, Rioli, Clarke, Bauer, Ross(23 at season start) Fawcett had major interruptions to their season and several others like Brown, Trezise, Gray had 4-6 week periods they couldnt play due to injury. Even overlooking how many games which players in the age group would have played, injuries have clearly had a major impact on the performance of this cohort for Richmond in 2024. And by major I mean massive. Such that you and I have no way of fairly judging what this group may have otherwise produced.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

We caught the Bulldogs in season worst form when they’d just won back to back games by 8 and 13 goals?

That must have been news to Luke Beverage at the time.


You don’t even bother any more do you

It took Bulldogs until rd 10 to beat any team in the top 10 at the end of the season. They were 0-3 v top 10 teams up to rd 9. Thereafter they were 7-3 against top 10 teams including the final loss to the Hawks.

there is very little doubt they were playing better in the second phase than the first, thus my statement.