Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[James Cuming]

Just been watching the Battle of the Desert.

To paraphrase Churchill... Are our affairs still being conducted by simpletons and dunderheads? Any featherhead can be confident when things seem to be going well. The test is to have faith when things are going badly.

Things were going badly, defeat after defeat, the humiliation of it all. The Americans eventually came good supplying new equipment, Auchinleck (a competent General) was eventually replaced by Montgomery and victory followed victory.

Who is our Churchill - Garlick. Is Garlick deeply involved in the planning and development of the team, is he competently steering the ship? What results is he demanding?

Where is our America supplying the big bucks? We have the red, white and blue, all we need now is the stars and stripes to go with it. Come on USA companies, support us with sponsorship.

Who is McCartney, is he our Auchinleck or our Montgomery?

The bells need to be ringing out a final victory in the west, long, long overdue.

 

[dogsfan]

And that's part of the reason we attract less scrutiny than Melbourne.
B-Mac has a vision, a plan, and come hell or highwater he will implement it.
"Crack in" & "Build from the inside out" are terms alot of fans are sick of, but you know what? If he kept giving us different messages every month, that would be a far greater concern.
Phase 2 (run & spread, which he's already started to talk about/work on) will be interesting to see but at the very least it's part of an evolving plan.

We don't want to wander in the wilderness for a decade without real direction - and that's what changing the coach every 2 years does. Ask Richmond how that worked out for them - and how by giving Hardwick carte blanche to build the team from the ground up they have renewed hope and actually look a reasonable chance at playing finals for the first time since Noah's wife noticed the rain was getting "a little heavier".

I agree totally with your summary on BMac's plan of building from the inside out and cracking in and phase 2 run and spread etc.. my slight concern is that most plans usually have a target and time frame. Even Noah had the ark built before the flood arrived. Simply put with the list we have at the moment the target should clearly be at least 10 wins for next year.

 

[TedDougChris]

But my advice to everyone on this board - Is dont ignore the criticism from these people - take it on board like Macca did and does and use it to go forward - I cannot stand those who ignore everything that states facts on the negative side but always push and promote only the positives.

Good point, although I will add the disclaimer that I ignore comments by people who are known to dislike the club and never have a good thing to say about it.... This list (IMO) includes - Lloyd, N Brown, Wallace and G Thomas. If you can't be objective and give praise where praise is due, then your opinion during the bad times is null and void.

I have heard both Carey and M Maclure, who both have spoken negatively about us in the past state they are both impressed with the direction taken by Macca and think that it's the right way to go about a rebuild. It may not work, but I'll trust those two over the list above.....

 

[JJHunter]

Good point, although I will add the disclaimer that I ignore comments by people who are known to dislike the club and never have a good thing to say about it.... This list (IMO) includes - Lloyd, N Brown, Wallace and G Thomas. If you can't be objective and give praise where praise is due, then your opinion during the bad times is null and void.

I have heard both Carey and M Maclure, who both have spoken negatively about us in the past state they are both impressed with the direction taken by Macca and think that it's the right way to go about a rebuild. It may not work, but I'll trust those two over the list above.....

Come on - I've heard Lloyd Wallace and Brown all say a heap of positive things about the club. Grant Thomas rarely says anything positive about anyone or anything so you can take that as you like.

I bet you didn't know that Liam Jones has had coaching with Lloyd in the past purely on his kicking ? Just a one on one session to work on his kicking - something I know wouldnt have been paid for - just doen out of the kindness of his heart. You think he "hates" us why would he do that.

Wallace just this week was praising Macca methods saying he agreed with teaching the inside game before the outside game etc etc etc

Some people just hear what they want to hear and judge purely based on the person rather than what is being said. Take out all the personal crap and just listen to what they say and do.

 

[TedDougChris]

Come on - I've heard Lloyd Wallace and Brown all say a heap of positive things about the club. Grant Thomas rarely says anything positive about anyone or anything so you can take that as you like.

I bet you didn't know that Liam Jones has had coaching with Lloyd in the past purely on his kicking ? Just a one on one session to work on his kicking - something I know wouldnt have been paid for - just doen out of the kindness of his heart. You think he "hates" us why would he do that.

Wallace just this week was praising Macca methods saying he agreed with teaching the inside game before the outside game etc etc etc

Some people just hear what they want to hear and judge purely based on the person rather than what is being said. Take out all the personal crap and just listen to what they say and do.

You've obviously heard different reports/articles than I have. I'll take your word for it, but I've never heard any of the guys mentioned earlier ever say nice things about the Dogs.

I didn't realise that Lloyd was working with Jones.

 

[JJHunter]

You've obviously heard different reports/articles than I have. I'll take your word for it, but I've never heard any of the guys mentioned earlier ever say nice things about the Dogs.

I didn't realise that Lloyd was working with Jones.

He worked with him last year in the offseason to develop his kicking in a one on one session. Not this year and not ongoing. Point was he doesn't hate the club - just that he is generally asked to analyse how we are going. When we have finished bottom four last year and struggled like we have I am not sure how many positives you want him or other commentators to go on about.

I remember him and Brown wrapping us up bigtime when we beat Brisbane - so only fair he gets to smash us when we get smashed by West Coast. They are asked to analyse a game - not be nice all the time.

 

[the dog's kennel]

Why are we not allowed to be criticised ? Why do we bag anyone in the media who does. Lloyd has only ever provided fact and figures as to where our game is at at the moment. He produced facts that showed the difference between our contested and uncontested and said we need to develop an outside game - he also provided a list of guys with poor footy skills or one paced through our midfield and showed how poor our kicking efficiency % are - hardly anything ground breaking. Yet our fans get their knicker in a twist about it.

Its not his job to assess the future but to tell the footy public why we are not winning more games right now. And his observations on Footy Classified a couple of weeks ago were accurate and totally backed up by what McCartney has said in his interviews. McCartney himself on SEN mentioned last week that there was growing talk of our inefficiencies and he said fair enough to. I believe he was alluding to Lloyd on footy classified.

For every good comment I can find a bad. What about michael gleesons article in todays age ?
I think it explains alot and backs up some ealier comments in this thread asking why the demons got more scrutiny than the dogs.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ut-dogs-are-none-too-rosy-20130514-2jklt.html

Sorry Cyclops, let me be very clear about this, because I probably haven't expressed myself very well:

Not only am I not opposed to criticism of Macca, but I think it's extremely constructive to hold him up to scrutiny - both on this board and in the media. I have repeatedly defended the more negative types on this board. Sometimes I feel like I'm Dry Rot's little buddy! And I most certainly wouldn't have a go at you, someone who i think has been unfailingly considered and polite in your board interactions.

I am also not having a go at Lloydy or Grant Thomas or Gleeson or anyone else who gives us a whack. I'm actually quite a fan of Lloydy's media work - he is a real straight-shooter, even when talking about the Bombers. Neither am I implying we are NOT being criticised anywhere. I couldn't really know what's been said on Melbourne radio for example, as I live in Sydney.

My point is simply this: There is a sizeable amount of support for the team's direction in the media. It isn't solely those with ties to the club (Mooney, Hall etc.) who are behind it. And it should give us some perspective when some of us are driven to despair by the xth straight loss. This does NOT mean everything's sunny and we should stick our heads in the sand. But it does mean that we probably aren't mired in a Melbourne-style state of emergency like some would have it.

I draw people's attention particularly to Mike Sheahan and Mark MacLure - 2 commentators who are only too happy to bury you when you're playing poorly. Both have given us plenty of clips over the last 2 years - both clipped us after the Richmond game. Both have a tendency to pile on when team's lose. Both seem relatively satisfied with our progress right now. That should count for something. That is all I'm saying.

Having said that, I think you've raised some excellent points as well. And I hope the team is engaging with them in a calm and methodical manner.

 

[Libba39]

We are being compared to Melbourne, which to me says enough on it's own. Who says it and whether it's justified or not is hardly the point in my opinion.

 

[Mofra]

I agree totally with your summary on BMac's plan of building from the inside out and cracking in and phase 2 run and spread etc.. my slight concern is that most plans usually have a target and time frame. Even Noah had the ark built before the flood arrived. Simply put with the list we have at the moment the target should clearly be at least 10 wins for next year.

It's reasonable to aim for targets, especially noting B-Mac's key of 50 games into a player before they are really AFL players. Jones will get to that number sometime this year and he is really starting to hold the F50 together.
Cordy is probably 2 years away from that, Roughy 1 year, Libba & Wallis not far off, Smith 1-2 years away, JJ getting close.

Reading between the lines we have a timeframe for winning more games in 2014 and being really competitive in 2015. By that stage we will have had at least 1 draft (and possibly 2) where we are bottom 4 so should have brought some potential A grade talent into the club - assuming we don't pick up a rookie gem like a Dahlhaus or a JJ either.

 

[Mofra]

We are being compared to Melbourne, which to me says enough on it's own. Who says it and whether it's justified or not is hardly the point in my opinion.

We've also been compared to Geelong in the way we're building the side.
It means nothing. The way we train, develop and play matter more than a newspaper article.

 

[TedDougChris]

He worked with him last year in the offseason to develop his kicking in a one on one session. Not this year and not ongoing. Point was he doesn't hate the club - just that he is generally asked to analyse how we are going. When we have finished bottom four last year and struggled like we have I am not sure how many positives you want him or other commentators to go on about.

I remember him and Brown wrapping us up bigtime when we beat Brisbane - so only fair he gets to smash us when we get smashed by West Coast. They are asked to analyse a game - not be nice all the time.

Good to hear.

My personal view on the comments made by others go much further beyond the last year or so. I'm not expecting people at the moment to think it's all roses. Even when we were a good side, you wouldn't hear a good word said about the club by certain individuals. But that's just my viewpoint and I'm sticking to it..

 

[dogsfan]

It's reasonable to aim for targets, especially noting B-Mac's key of 50 games into a player before they are really AFL players. Jones will get to that number sometime this year and he is really starting to hold the F50 together.
Cordy is probably 2 years away from that, Roughy 1 year, Libba & Wallis not far off, Smith 1-2 years away, JJ getting close.

Reading between the lines we have a timeframe for winning more games in 2014 and being really competitive in 2015. By that stage we will have had at least 1 draft (and possibly 2) where we are bottom 4 so should have brought some potential A grade talent into the club - assuming we don't pick up a rookie gem like a Dahlhaus or a JJ either.

I don't think many Doggie members would be happy finishing in the bottom 4 in 2014 and to be honest I don't think Bmac would be either.

 

[Trent85]

@Mofra
Jones 44 games played
Ayce 17 games played
Roughy 42 games played
Libba 40 games played
Wallis 32 games played
Clay 22 games played
JJ 9 games played
Dahlhaus 35 games played

also
Young 16 games played
Koby 17 games played
Dicko 20 games played
Lower 49 games played

 

[Mofra]

Cheers Trent - No surprise Rougy and Jones, looking our best tall kids, are closing in on that 50 game mark.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

And that's part of the reason we attract less scrutiny than Melbourne.
B-Mac has a vision, a plan, and come hell or highwater he will implement it.
"Crack in" & "Build from the inside out" are terms alot of fans are sick of, but you know what? If he kept giving us different messages every month, that would be a far greater concern.
Phase 2 (run & spread, which he's already started to talk about/work on) will be interesting to see but at the very least it's part of an evolving plan.

We don't want to wander in the wilderness for a decade without real direction - and that's what changing the coach every 2 years does. Ask Richmond how that worked out for them - and how by giving Hardwick carte blanche to build the team from the ground up they have renewed hope and actually look a reasonable chance at playing finals for the first time since Noah's wife noticed the rain was getting "a little heavier".

Mof, I think you're in danger of being supremely logical here!

 

[Trent85]

Mof, I think you're in danger of being supremely logical here!

 

[Bulldog Banana]

Just been watching the Battle of the Desert.

To paraphrase Churchill... Are our affairs still being conducted by simpletons and dunderheads? Any featherhead can be confident when things seem to be going well. The test is to have faith when things are going badly.

Things were going badly, defeat after defeat, the humiliation of it all. The Americans eventually came good supplying new equipment, Auchinleck (a competent General) was eventually replaced by Montgomery and victory followed victory.

Who is our Churchill - Garlick. Is Garlick deeply involved in the planning and development of the team, is he competently steering the ship? What results is he demanding?

Where is our America supplying the big bucks? We have the red, white and blue, all we need now is the stars and stripes to go with it. Come on USA companies, support us with sponsorship.

Who is McCartney, is he our Auchinleck or our Montgomery?

The bells need to be ringing out a final victory in the west, long, long overdue.

LOL, being a WWII history nut I love this post.
Makes me wonder who the Italian Army will be in the context of your post, GC, GWS or the Dees?

 

[Bulldog Banana]

Did anyone see the Macca piece on AFL insider on Fox Footy last night?
I missed it and am interested to see what others thought about it.
Hopefully I will catch a repeat of it tonight or later in the week so I can add my thoughts.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Did anyone see the Macca piece on AFL insider on Fox Footy last night?
I missed it and am interested to see what others thought about it.
Hopefully I will catch a repeat of it tonight or later in the week so I can add my thoughts.

Went for a whole 90 seconds and just showed Macca making random comments to the players. Not worth your time.

 

[Bulldog Banana]

Went for a whole 90 seconds and just showed Macca making random comments to the players. Not worth your time.

If thats the case, that's really dissapointing.
Was expecting a bit more to be honest, so much for being able to make a more informed call on his abilities.......

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

If thats the case, that's really dissapointing.
Was expecting a bit more to be honest, so much for being able to make a more informed call on his abilities.......

Yeah, I was pretty disappointed. If you saw the ad for it you saw pretty much all of it. It showed that there's a fairly positive aura around the group and that they all seem to respect Macca, but that's nothing we didn't really know already.

 

[Trent85]

It's the minutes in which the Dogs take control of games that spur the coach on, with the belief that one day in the future, this pain will pay dividends.

That's not to say Brendan McCartney's men aren't in need of a win.
"If you worry totally about the result it can paralyze you," he said on Wednesday.

"It's how you do things, the method to how you go about your football. We know and the playing group know that when they play well these are the things in place. They also know that when they don't play well usually, those things aren’t in place."

"My challenge and all the other coaches that feel pressure to get their team to play better, is to come to work every day resilient, optimistic, with a clear vision and focus of what you want the players to do."

Surprisingly, McCartney believes it is acceptable for coaches to be judged on part of a season if certain factors are taken into consideration.
"The one thing you've got to analyze when you watch a club is: Do they look functional? Are the players cracking in? Are they working hard? Do they look like a group of players that want to work for each other? You can't escape that.
"The next thing you've got to factor in is: How has the draw handled them? How is their injury list? How competitive they are when the game gets busy and I think when you watch a club and you watch a game you've got to factor all of those things in."

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2013-05-15/mccartney-we-have-a-job-to-do

 

[Zgope1]

^ he never really acts like he's under pressure. Neeld looked out of his depth after his first game.

Great work Trent85 by the way bringing up all those games played. A couple of those players are going to come into some really form later this year and a couple more will next year. Our performances will get a lot more consistent toward the end of next year too i feel.

 

[Sharkey66]

Went for a whole 90 seconds and just showed Macca making random comments to the players. Not worth your time.

Don't know if anyone else caught it but the snippet where he said to a player (think it was Howard but not sure)
"that the player all the fans saw the other day is not the player we see every day or the player you know you are." (or words to that effect)

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Don't know if anyone else caught it but the snippet where he said to a player (think it was Howard but not sure)
"that the player all the fans saw the other day is not the player we see every day or the player you know you are." (or words to that effect)

It was Campbell.