- Oct 14, 2011
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List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 5
- Thread starter richoatthedisco
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There was an article on Stengle before the Grand Final about how he left because Adelaide gave him a three year deal and we only offered two but he loved the club and the boys. Rocked up to the VFL grand final win (would have been the year after he left I think)
Then when Geelong was thinking of taking him they reached out to us and we told them that he was a good kid and they should do it
Stengle had his issues at Adelaide but he always put in, didn’t seem to come to pre season out of shape year after year
Maybe Stack needs a year in the lower levels to understand what life could be like if he continues to bludge
Still I’d keep him for one more year
Then when Geelong was thinking of taking him they reached out to us and we told them that he was a good kid and they should do it
Stengle had his issues at Adelaide but he always put in, didn’t seem to come to pre season out of shape year after year
Maybe Stack needs a year in the lower levels to understand what life could be like if he continues to bludge
Still I’d keep him for one more year
That's at his 3rd club and after time in the SANFL after sorting all his stuff out and the penny dropping.
I'm not saying Stack is a better player now, buy line them up at the same age and Stack was a better talent. He was considered a first round talent if not for off field issues. Obviously there's more to succeeding than talent, but Stack isn't lacking that side by side with Stengle.
Ring up...was their a GF played!?!?...and hang up!
Wacky Tiger
Parmy
I don't mind the kid section. Bit cringe but it's his thing so good on him.
Michael Vaughan one was really good too. Actually haven't been too many I haven't enjoyed
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Prone to coming back in pre-season a tad rusty...
Stengle was performing better in the VFL with us then Stack was this year
For stackys own good I think he needs to seek a chance elsewhere , a few others have jumped him in the queue , Judy Clarke , mrj . Good luck to him, If he knuckles down I’m sure he has plenty to offer
Tigers Time
Premiership Player
- Sep 5, 2015
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Love this headline (paywall but it’s Buckenara analysing our list so it’s pretty ****en pointless)
The AFL, ARC and the Umps Installer RHEEM us every year it seems......
Grabbed a Bacon and Egg McMuffin combo this morning. Got home and the kents had put ketchup in it.
They should be arrested.
The feck puts ketchup on bacon and eggs. Should be up there with Treason.
- Oct 27, 2014
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Bucky's assessment of our list. Most of his opinions are pretty sound but misses the mark on rating our young talent and only rates Prestia a B grader
Meatball would have been vying for the Brownlow without an interrupted season, is a gun. We have been drafting young talent, don't see us falling off the cliff with the improvement of Sonsie, Gibcus, Maurice Rioli, Balta, Bolton (can lift his game another level still), Cumbo Hugo and Clarke, Banks and Brown look promising.
Richmond underachieved again this season.
Given the top-end strength of their list on paper, the Tigers should have been a top-four side enjoying the double chance this September. They boast as much A-grade talent as just about any side in the league – a total of 27 A, B-grade and rising star players. It makes me question whether the hunger and appetite is still there. Time is marching on for this group.
The age demographic of the list is a worry. There is a real concern with the age of this group that it could drop off very quickly.
With their top-end talent, a fair amount is going to disappear over the next year or two and if there’s nothing coming through, it could spell trouble.
Right now, the number of developing players on the Tigers’ list is skinny. They have already bid farewell to a trio of premiership stars in Shane Edwards, Kane Lambert and Josh Caddy this year. Trent Cotchin and Jack Riewoldt will continue next season, as will Dustin Martin, despite the speculation about his future.
Cotchin will turn 33 next year and Riewoldt is 34 next month, but I still rate both of them as A-graders. They have earned that rating for consistent performance over a long period of time, but at a club level you are probably not relying on them to win games for you any more. The former captain is not having the influence he once had and Riewoldt’s output is also not what it used to be, but the Tigers are obviously trying to hang on to retain their list depth. It would not surprise if their games were managed next year – they might have talked about playing 10-15 matches – and that’s why they probably accepted having a cut to their salary.
The pursuit of GWS pair Jacob Hopper and Tim Taranto shows the Tigers do not have any immediate plans to enter a youth-led reinvigoration of their list and that they plan to hang on with the current group to try and win another flag. The Giants’ pair, who have both nominated Punt Rd as their preferred trade destination, can help re-energise Richmond’s midfield.
Shai Bolton has assumed the mantle as the Tigers’ new superstar in Martin’s disrupted year. He has elevated his game to another level and is getting a bit of attention, but is handling it well and has taken on that A-grade rating because of that.
There are several Tigers on the fringe of the A-grade ratings who just missed the cut. Daniel Rioli has had quite a consistent season after moving to a new role at half-back, but I would like to see him have another year like that and he would then push himself into the A-grade category.
Jayden Short is also probably on the borderline of being an A-grade player. If I was doing B-plus, he would have had that rating. His output is strong and he is a dangerous player because he is such a beautiful kick.
Dion Prestia is another, but he is 30 next month and is always seems to be battling soft-tissue injury problems. He has the ability to be an A-grader but because he has lacked that consistency in his game due to his body breakdowns, he is rated as a B-grader.
Noah Balta is only 22 and has got real athleticism, but he drops out of games too often. If he could get himself a bit fitter and find a bit more of an engine, he is a powerful player and could be an A-grade player of the future.
Of the rising stars, I think Josh Gibcus will develop into a ripper, Maurice Rioli Jr has shown some class and is another future A-grader, and Tyler Sonsie is showing enough at the level and should elevate himself to at least B-grade in time.
HOW THE RATINGS WORK
At a club level, player ranking is generally based on gradings of A+, A, B+, B, C+, C and the developing players.
My rankings will focus on A, B, C and for the developing 20-year-old and under players will be rated as rising stars (RS) and those that need more time (NMT).
With the younger players, it is important to consider who is coming through and those who need longer to develop.
The most important areas for clubs to look at is how many A and B ranked players they have as well as the rising stars, who I believe should be A and B-grade players in the future.
RATING THE LIST
A
Nick Vlastuin, 28
Dylan Grimes, 30
Dustin Martin, 30
Liam Baker, 24
Jack Riewoldt, 33
Trent Cotchin, 32
Tom Lynch, 29
Toby Nankervis, 27
Shai Bolton, 23
B
Dion Prestia, 29
Jack Ross, 21
Robbie Tarrant, 33
Jason Castagna, 25
Jayden Short, 26
Jake Aarts, 27
Daniel Rioli, 25
Noah Balta, 22
Riley Collier-Dawkins, 22
Kamdyn McIntosh, 28
Jack Graham, 24
Nathan Broad, 29
Noah Cumberland, 21
Marlion Pickett, 30
Developing (20 years and under)
Rising stars
Josh Gibcus, 19
Tyler Sonsie, 19
Hugo Ralphsmith, 20
Maurice Rioli, 19
Needs more time
Thomson Dow, 20
Tom Brown, 18
Sam Banks, 19
Judson Clarke, 18
Jacob Bauer, 19
Retired: Shane Edwards, Josh Caddy, Kane Lambert, Matthew Parker
Delisted: None yet
LIST BREAKDOWN
A-Grade: 9
B-Grade: 14
C-Grade: 8
Developing (20 years and under)
Rising stars: 4
Need more time: 5
LIST NEEDS
Age is catching up quickly with this group. The Tigers will need to reinvigorate the list with some young talent sooner rather than later. The lack of rising stars and players that need more time in their development phase – nine in total – is far too thin.
In a strong 2022 draft, the Tigers should be looking to try to add some top-40 selections. There are 10 players on the list who will be in the 29-34 age bracket next season and I feel the list is long overdue for a freshen up. The defence is the biggest area of concern, with players breaking down in key positions. I consider Robbie Tarrant only a short-term player – his body hasn’t been great – and co-captain Dylan Grimes has also had his injury troubles. Tarrant turns 34 next year and Grimes will be turning 32. Noah Balta could turn into that powerful, key-position defender – I would keep him down back rather than switching him between defence and the forward line – while Gibcus can take a key backline post in time.
If Ivan Soldo leaves in the trade period a developing ruckman could be on the wish list given Samson Ryan and Mate Colina have played one AFL game between them and the lost Callum Coleman-Jones and Mabior Chol last year.
THE GIANT COUP
My focus would be to bring in young talent rather than trading out picks for experienced players, but the opportunity to land a prime pair such as Giants’ midfielders Tim Taranto and Jacob Hopper is one the Tigers can’t pass up. They will be 25 and 26 next year, so they are still going to deliver plenty of upside.
Adding those two players is definitely going to give the Tigers more midfield strength, but it is also going to require a reasonable outlay. It is probably going to cost Richmond two first-round picks – one this year and one next year – and possibly a second or a third-round pick somewhere along the line to get it done, which reduces the opportunity to bring in young talent at the draft. Spreading it over two years makes sense, it’s just a matter of working out the combination of picks they are going to have to give up to get the deals done.
But it is a strong draft and fairly deep, so if they could keep their second or third pick, that is still going to net them a reasonable player. That is what I would be aiming for, trying to get a good young player as well as Taranto and Hopper.
Seven-year deals for me are too much, ideally it would be five. Seven pushes them to 32, 33 years of age and we know that’s when bodies start to break down, so you are playing with a bit of fire. But they would be bringing in two good players that are going to help their cause now, and they can worry about the future down the track.
Soldo has been mentioned as a player who could be part of a trade and Riley Collier-Dawkins is yet to re-sign, but I rate him and wouldn’t let him go. A former pick 20, he hasn’t cemented his spot in the team yet but given the age imbalance of the list the Tigers should hang onto their best young midfield prospect.
Meatball would have been vying for the Brownlow without an interrupted season, is a gun. We have been drafting young talent, don't see us falling off the cliff with the improvement of Sonsie, Gibcus, Maurice Rioli, Balta, Bolton (can lift his game another level still), Cumbo Hugo and Clarke, Banks and Brown look promising.
Richmond underachieved again this season.
Given the top-end strength of their list on paper, the Tigers should have been a top-four side enjoying the double chance this September. They boast as much A-grade talent as just about any side in the league – a total of 27 A, B-grade and rising star players. It makes me question whether the hunger and appetite is still there. Time is marching on for this group.
The age demographic of the list is a worry. There is a real concern with the age of this group that it could drop off very quickly.
With their top-end talent, a fair amount is going to disappear over the next year or two and if there’s nothing coming through, it could spell trouble.
Right now, the number of developing players on the Tigers’ list is skinny. They have already bid farewell to a trio of premiership stars in Shane Edwards, Kane Lambert and Josh Caddy this year. Trent Cotchin and Jack Riewoldt will continue next season, as will Dustin Martin, despite the speculation about his future.
Cotchin will turn 33 next year and Riewoldt is 34 next month, but I still rate both of them as A-graders. They have earned that rating for consistent performance over a long period of time, but at a club level you are probably not relying on them to win games for you any more. The former captain is not having the influence he once had and Riewoldt’s output is also not what it used to be, but the Tigers are obviously trying to hang on to retain their list depth. It would not surprise if their games were managed next year – they might have talked about playing 10-15 matches – and that’s why they probably accepted having a cut to their salary.
The pursuit of GWS pair Jacob Hopper and Tim Taranto shows the Tigers do not have any immediate plans to enter a youth-led reinvigoration of their list and that they plan to hang on with the current group to try and win another flag. The Giants’ pair, who have both nominated Punt Rd as their preferred trade destination, can help re-energise Richmond’s midfield.
Shai Bolton has assumed the mantle as the Tigers’ new superstar in Martin’s disrupted year. He has elevated his game to another level and is getting a bit of attention, but is handling it well and has taken on that A-grade rating because of that.
There are several Tigers on the fringe of the A-grade ratings who just missed the cut. Daniel Rioli has had quite a consistent season after moving to a new role at half-back, but I would like to see him have another year like that and he would then push himself into the A-grade category.
Jayden Short is also probably on the borderline of being an A-grade player. If I was doing B-plus, he would have had that rating. His output is strong and he is a dangerous player because he is such a beautiful kick.
Dion Prestia is another, but he is 30 next month and is always seems to be battling soft-tissue injury problems. He has the ability to be an A-grader but because he has lacked that consistency in his game due to his body breakdowns, he is rated as a B-grader.
Noah Balta is only 22 and has got real athleticism, but he drops out of games too often. If he could get himself a bit fitter and find a bit more of an engine, he is a powerful player and could be an A-grade player of the future.
Of the rising stars, I think Josh Gibcus will develop into a ripper, Maurice Rioli Jr has shown some class and is another future A-grader, and Tyler Sonsie is showing enough at the level and should elevate himself to at least B-grade in time.
HOW THE RATINGS WORK
At a club level, player ranking is generally based on gradings of A+, A, B+, B, C+, C and the developing players.
My rankings will focus on A, B, C and for the developing 20-year-old and under players will be rated as rising stars (RS) and those that need more time (NMT).
With the younger players, it is important to consider who is coming through and those who need longer to develop.
The most important areas for clubs to look at is how many A and B ranked players they have as well as the rising stars, who I believe should be A and B-grade players in the future.
RATING THE LIST
A
Nick Vlastuin, 28
Dylan Grimes, 30
Dustin Martin, 30
Liam Baker, 24
Jack Riewoldt, 33
Trent Cotchin, 32
Tom Lynch, 29
Toby Nankervis, 27
Shai Bolton, 23
B
Dion Prestia, 29
Jack Ross, 21
Robbie Tarrant, 33
Jason Castagna, 25
Jayden Short, 26
Jake Aarts, 27
Daniel Rioli, 25
Noah Balta, 22
Riley Collier-Dawkins, 22
Kamdyn McIntosh, 28
Jack Graham, 24
Nathan Broad, 29
Noah Cumberland, 21
Marlion Pickett, 30
Developing (20 years and under)
Rising stars
Josh Gibcus, 19
Tyler Sonsie, 19
Hugo Ralphsmith, 20
Maurice Rioli, 19
Needs more time
Thomson Dow, 20
Tom Brown, 18
Sam Banks, 19
Judson Clarke, 18
Jacob Bauer, 19
Retired: Shane Edwards, Josh Caddy, Kane Lambert, Matthew Parker
Delisted: None yet
LIST BREAKDOWN
A-Grade: 9
B-Grade: 14
C-Grade: 8
Developing (20 years and under)
Rising stars: 4
Need more time: 5
LIST NEEDS
Age is catching up quickly with this group. The Tigers will need to reinvigorate the list with some young talent sooner rather than later. The lack of rising stars and players that need more time in their development phase – nine in total – is far too thin.
In a strong 2022 draft, the Tigers should be looking to try to add some top-40 selections. There are 10 players on the list who will be in the 29-34 age bracket next season and I feel the list is long overdue for a freshen up. The defence is the biggest area of concern, with players breaking down in key positions. I consider Robbie Tarrant only a short-term player – his body hasn’t been great – and co-captain Dylan Grimes has also had his injury troubles. Tarrant turns 34 next year and Grimes will be turning 32. Noah Balta could turn into that powerful, key-position defender – I would keep him down back rather than switching him between defence and the forward line – while Gibcus can take a key backline post in time.
If Ivan Soldo leaves in the trade period a developing ruckman could be on the wish list given Samson Ryan and Mate Colina have played one AFL game between them and the lost Callum Coleman-Jones and Mabior Chol last year.
THE GIANT COUP
My focus would be to bring in young talent rather than trading out picks for experienced players, but the opportunity to land a prime pair such as Giants’ midfielders Tim Taranto and Jacob Hopper is one the Tigers can’t pass up. They will be 25 and 26 next year, so they are still going to deliver plenty of upside.
Adding those two players is definitely going to give the Tigers more midfield strength, but it is also going to require a reasonable outlay. It is probably going to cost Richmond two first-round picks – one this year and one next year – and possibly a second or a third-round pick somewhere along the line to get it done, which reduces the opportunity to bring in young talent at the draft. Spreading it over two years makes sense, it’s just a matter of working out the combination of picks they are going to have to give up to get the deals done.
But it is a strong draft and fairly deep, so if they could keep their second or third pick, that is still going to net them a reasonable player. That is what I would be aiming for, trying to get a good young player as well as Taranto and Hopper.
Seven-year deals for me are too much, ideally it would be five. Seven pushes them to 32, 33 years of age and we know that’s when bodies start to break down, so you are playing with a bit of fire. But they would be bringing in two good players that are going to help their cause now, and they can worry about the future down the track.
Soldo has been mentioned as a player who could be part of a trade and Riley Collier-Dawkins is yet to re-sign, but I rate him and wouldn’t let him go. A former pick 20, he hasn’t cemented his spot in the team yet but given the age imbalance of the list the Tigers should hang onto their best young midfield prospect.
- Aug 8, 2009
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He rated Jake Aarts a B grader. To clarify he rated Prestia, Rioli and Balta as B graders.
- Oct 27, 2014
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Loves RCD and think we should keep him.
- Oct 27, 2014
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Would be a travesty if Port got and end of first round pick for Amon, considering his contract value and length is the same as what Brandon Ellis got offered.
Groupie_
time to return the traditional Richmond yellow
best combo
- Aug 15, 2015
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What a wasted exercise!! Wonder how he rated Geelong list last year.
The most positive thing I take out of our year / list is the seamless step up to AFL level of Gibcus, Cumberland, Rioli and the development of Ross, Miller, HRS.
RCD a B grader
The most positive thing I take out of our year / list is the seamless step up to AFL level of Gibcus, Cumberland, Rioli and the development of Ross, Miller, HRS.
RCD a B grader
RCD, Aarts and Castagna can't get a game yet are rated B grade the same as Prestia. Stopped reading after that.
Tigers Time
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Pretty obvious when he lists him as a b-grader lol
While I don’t love RCD I do like him and I would keep him if possible even if it’s only taking Aarts spot on the rookie list. I just don’t think you draft a player that you know is going to take time only to get rid of him when he’s finally showing what we’ve been waiting for him to show in the 2’s.
But what would I know
Groupie_
time to return the traditional Richmond yellow
AFL Article from 2016 - where trading out our Top Pick was a Mistake. Side note, St Kilda's 2016 Draft was an A+
Such good memories.
In: Dion Prestia, Toby Nankervis, Josh Caddy, picks 27, 56, 2017 first-round pick (Geelong), 2017 third-round pick (GWS)
Out: Brett Deledio, Ty Vickery, picks 6, 46, 64, and 2017 second-round pick
Win: Midfield depth and class, a desperately needed ruckman, a first-round pick next year
Lose: A 243-game star, a flexible ruck-forward, Their highest pick in the draft since 2010
2016 draft picks: 27, 56, 82 and 100
What couldn’t they get done?
The Tigers' regret would be losing their position in the top 10 of the draft. That was an unrealistic goal, however, when they were attempting to lure a highly rated player like Prestia, who walks into the midfield.
Nathan Schmook’s verdict
The midfield issues that have long plagued the Tigers might finally have been addressed with the addition of Prestia and Caddy. With both 24, they can help the Tigers immediately while also being long-term prospects if a rebuild is required. Deledio's exit also netted a good return, with future first and third-round picks coming in for the 29-year-old. A second-round pick as compensation for Ty Vickery was a remarkable result.
Rating: B
Dion Prestia will join Trent Cotchin and Dustin Martin in the Tigers' midfield. Picture: AFL Photos
In: Jack Steele (GWS), Nathan Brown (Collingwood), picks 23, 36, and 2017 first-round pick (Hawthorn)
Out: Picks 10, 68, and 2017 second-round pick
Win: A mighty hand at the 2017 draft, more hard-bodied inside midfielders to build depth, an experienced key defender
Lose: A presence in round one of the 2016 draft
2016 draft picks: 23, 36, 50, 86, 104
What couldn’t they get done?
Nothing. The Saints were stealth-like through the trade period, getting involved in deals where they were required and emerging better off each time.
Nathan Schmook’s verdict
The biggest winners of the trade period after working with a desperate Hawthorn on a swap of picks. The Saints' crop of youngsters means they could stomach a slide from round one to round two this year, and they'll take two first-round selections into next year's draft, giving them an opportunity to trade in experienced guns or continue recruiting quality young players. They are also well poised now to start using free agency more aggressively.
Rating: A+
Such good memories.
In: Dion Prestia, Toby Nankervis, Josh Caddy, picks 27, 56, 2017 first-round pick (Geelong), 2017 third-round pick (GWS)
Out: Brett Deledio, Ty Vickery, picks 6, 46, 64, and 2017 second-round pick
Win: Midfield depth and class, a desperately needed ruckman, a first-round pick next year
Lose: A 243-game star, a flexible ruck-forward, Their highest pick in the draft since 2010
2016 draft picks: 27, 56, 82 and 100
What couldn’t they get done?
The Tigers' regret would be losing their position in the top 10 of the draft. That was an unrealistic goal, however, when they were attempting to lure a highly rated player like Prestia, who walks into the midfield.
Nathan Schmook’s verdict
The midfield issues that have long plagued the Tigers might finally have been addressed with the addition of Prestia and Caddy. With both 24, they can help the Tigers immediately while also being long-term prospects if a rebuild is required. Deledio's exit also netted a good return, with future first and third-round picks coming in for the 29-year-old. A second-round pick as compensation for Ty Vickery was a remarkable result.
Rating: B
Dion Prestia will join Trent Cotchin and Dustin Martin in the Tigers' midfield. Picture: AFL Photos
In: Jack Steele (GWS), Nathan Brown (Collingwood), picks 23, 36, and 2017 first-round pick (Hawthorn)
Out: Picks 10, 68, and 2017 second-round pick
Win: A mighty hand at the 2017 draft, more hard-bodied inside midfielders to build depth, an experienced key defender
Lose: A presence in round one of the 2016 draft
2016 draft picks: 23, 36, 50, 86, 104
What couldn’t they get done?
Nothing. The Saints were stealth-like through the trade period, getting involved in deals where they were required and emerging better off each time.
Nathan Schmook’s verdict
The biggest winners of the trade period after working with a desperate Hawthorn on a swap of picks. The Saints' crop of youngsters means they could stomach a slide from round one to round two this year, and they'll take two first-round selections into next year's draft, giving them an opportunity to trade in experienced guns or continue recruiting quality young players. They are also well poised now to start using free agency more aggressively.
Rating: A+
- Thread starter
- #17,872
Serves you right. It's McDonald's, you don't get to complain about the food.
Support a local cafe. The food will be better and you're helping a small business.
At least he bumped Vlastuin up from a C-grader to an A-grader.
BOPPER
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I hate free agency compo. The only compo a club should get out of losing a free agent is cap space. Why should 16 other clubs get shafted from a transaction between a player and a club?
We benefited from this compo with Bolton from the Vickery compo but it needs to go and just have an uncompromised reverse order draft!
_RT_
Community Leader
- Sep 17, 2006
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Preseason training begins before the draft, however it's after contracts expire on October 31st, so technically Stack would be out of contract before he fronts up to a new preseason.
- Thread starter
- #17,875
Yep. It was a sop to get clubs to agree to FA when they feared it and resisted because they didn't understand how it works. Now they're all over salary dumping, they don't need their hands held anymore.
The next step will be to increase initial contracts to three or four years, but the players will want greater freedom after that, so expect free agent eligibility to come down to six years. The trade-off for that will be to allow clubs to trade contracted players wherever the club wants, then eventually there will be sign-and-trade provisions at the draft, short-term contracts (weeks or months rather than years), possibly loan-out arrangements, until finally the AFL will resemble a professional sport.
These moron AFL execs paying themselves 900k a year are such slavish followers of the NFL, maybe by osmosis they'll actually adopt some of its practices.
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