List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 6

[_RT_]

My issue is if quality players like Vlastuin or Rioli or Short are contracted but request a trade, trading them out doesn’t improve our list for 2-3 x seasons, and in fact weakens it considerably. My first reply would be ‘you’re contracted and a required player’. If they’re disgruntled or we get offered something ridiculous then by all means, explore the trade.

But Vlastuin for a pick around 30? No thanks. D Rioli for a late teens pick? No thanks. Short for pick-30? No thanks.

As the Tigers of 2017, Pies of 2022-23 and Cats of 2022 proved, what looks like a ‘cooked’ list and a required rebuild may actually be a flag waiting to happen.




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Since the 2020 flag we've been executing a well thought out plan where we were managing the departures of our elder statesmen year by year and stockpiling young talent through the draft. The targeted recruitment of Taranto & Hopper wasn't just for this years run at the flag, it was also to bring in long term midfield starters that we needed as part of a replenishment of the list.

When you look at our side based on players 26 or younger, it's pretty much set structure wise, barring the obvious KPF need

B: Miller Young Gibcus
HB: Baker Balta D.Rioli
C: Ralphsmith Taranto Ross
HF: Cumberland ?????? Graham
F: Maurice ????? Clarke
R: Ryan Hopper Bolton
INT from: Banks Bauer Bradtke Brown Campbell Colina Dow Green Mansell Nyoun Smith Sonsie

Add in older guys that will still be here the next couple of years in Martin Grimes Pickett Prestia Lynch Broad McIntosh Vlastuin Nankervis Short & Soldo and while it looks solid enough I don't believe there is enough quality at the moment to rebound like you're hoping can happen. IMO we need to be focusing the rest of this season plus 2024 & 2025 on bringing through the next generation so that from 2025 we will be not just a finals side, but one that is ready to embark on another sustained run.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Since the 2020 flag we've been executing a well thought out plan where we were managing the departures of our elder statesmen year by year and stockpiling young talent through the draft. The targeted recruitment of Taranto & Hopper wasn't just for this years run at the flag, it was also to bring in long term midfield starters that we needed as part of a replenishment of the list.

When you look at our side based on players 26 or younger, it's pretty much set structure wise, barring the obvious KPF need

B: Miller Young Gibcus
HB: Baker Balta D.Rioli
C: Ralphsmith Taranto Ross
HF: Cumberland ?????? Graham
F: Maurice ????? Clarke
R: Ryan Hopper Bolton
INT from: Banks Bauer Bradtke Brown Campbell Colina Dow Green Mansell Nyoun Smith Sonsie

Add in older guys that will still be here the next couple of years in Martin Grimes Pickett Prestia Lynch Broad McIntosh Vlastuin Nankervis Short & Soldo and while it looks solid enough I don't believe there is enough quality at the moment to rebound like you're hoping can happen. IMO we need to be focusing the rest of this season plus 2024 & 2025 on bringing through the next generation so that from 2025 we will be not just a finals side, but one that is ready to embark on another sustained run.

We are not as far away from being in contention as you and others think, imho of course. But for the loss of our most important players for long periods (Lynch and Nank for starters), and appalling F50 strategy, including shocking kicking for goal, we’d be in it up to our ears this season. Never been thrashed, and been in every single game this season in the last quarter. Two standout shockers being GCS and Bummers games, they were just atrocious

 

[Nerflardio2424]

We lack young stars apart from Bolton and Taranto.

 

[beema limapep]

You're like a broken record.

Let the man speak!

 

[_RT_]

As a long term member/supporter of over 40 years, and having seen some of the worst years in our clubs history (still went along every week), I just cannot understand some of the gloom and doom being posted on this forum. Although, yes, it’s anyone’s right to post their views
Some are advocating for a total rebuild by trading out some players who, in my opinion, we just cannot afford to lose. And saying no to Himmelberg from the Giants, that we can hopefully get for basically cap space, is madness when our forward line and delivery into it is by far our biggest weakness this current season. If it was operating better and we kicked at least 100 points per game, as we did regularly last season, we would have lost ONE game so far this season. And even then, that was against Sydney when we rolled the dice in the last quarter and opened up our chances to get heavily scored against.
I keep asking myself if this rebuild many are purporting to be required is in fact required. Then I think, we haven’t been thrashed at any point this season, and in fact, have been well in every game into the last quarter. Is that a team that needs a total rebuild? I’m thinking not at this stage, especially given we have lost crucial players for long periods of the year. And some of the younger types, Gibcus, Brown, Smith, Campbell etc also haven't been able to take the field to show what they can do either.

I also question if the ageing list is going to be a problem too, and whether we need the elite talent many are asking for by trading at all/any cost to get high draft picks. Again, I can’t see why we’d even consider that given we are still very competitive with the top sides with only Jack, Trent and Tarrant likely to give it away at the end of year. Are they a huge loss based on current form? Well, Tarrant hasn’t even played, Jack has looked gone all year for me as he doesn’t jump or move as he has in previous years, and can’t seem to bring it to ground as he used to, and while Trent is still a very composed and hard at it player, he now looks slow and hasn't been impacting games as he has in the past. On balance, I think we will cope fine when these three give it away at years end. Far more critical that we fix up our forward line woes, and learn how to score more easily, as we were renowned for during the years we won flags.
This year, as we are all well aware, we don't have a first round pick in the draft but we got a Cotchin replacement in Hopper with that pick. Nothing wrong with that strategy imo. Use Free Agency this year to grab a potential KPF in Himmelberg, as long as the financial cost isn’t over the top. As R2R has been saying, structure it so he gets paid more in the years after the Dusty and Lynch deals are off the books.
Even this year for this upcoming mid season draft, I hope and pray we are looking to take 1 or 2 small pressure type forwards that can kick goals. There’s bound to be some around in state leagues surely? As that area of the game has gone from being one of our strengths, to one of our forward weaknesses this season. MRJ the only decent one we have, as young Judson has yet to bulk up enough to do whats required, imo.
Sorry for the long post all, but it’s not all gloom and doom for RFC. I truly don’t think we are that far off the pace. Fix the forward line issues and we are back in with a chance. certainly not this year, but next year, who knows. Just keep drafting young talent with the picks we have, and I think we will come out of this transition in decent shape.

I just posted a side based on our players who are 26 or younger and there are 28 players currently in that side, with 1-2 to be added tomorrow night. Come seasons end we'll likely see the departure of some of them to be replaced by fresh draftees. So I think we've gone through the build part of the rebuild.

What I've been advocating for is putting the time and effort into developing these kids, where possible in the senior side alongside the remainder of our premiership heroes over the next couple of seasons. That way you get the benefit of them playing alongside experienced players( we'll have up to 11 players aged 27+ still on the list next year), while also being exposed to the best possible opposition, and we'll very quickly find our which of these players have what it takes.

This is why I said last week that we haven't truly begun to rebuild, we've assembled the list, now we need to find out about it and that only happens one way as far as I'm concerned, you've got to play them. The same way Hardwick played the kids when he first came to the club, the difference being that back then we didn't really have the same quality of list to work with. This time we do and I don't believe that playing the kids will mean that we'll become the next Hawthorn or North, but that we'll become the next era of Richmond success.

 

[lizard man]

Perhaps we should only let Hardwick coach again at another club next year if that club gives us a first round pick for him ….. he is contracted after all

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

David Bourke
Matthew Richardson
Steven Morris (though not technically a father/son)
Andrew Raines
Tom Roach
Pat Naish

All not from the one family though.lol

 

[_RT_]

We are not as far away from being in contention as you and others think, imho of course. But for the loss of our most important players for long periods (Lynch and Nank for starters), and appalling F50 strategy, including shocking kicking for goal, we’d be in it up to our ears this season. Never been thrashed, and been in every single game this season in the last quarter. Two standout shockers being GCS and Bummers games, they were just atrocious

The thing is we've been in contention in most of those games while also playing a large number of players who started the season with under 50 games with Mansell (10) Ryan (10) Clarke (9) Ralphsmith (8) Ross (7) Young (7) Miller (7) Cumberland (6) playing more than half the season so far plus Maurice (5) Sonsie (3) & Dow (1) also getting a look in. That is why I want to see us continue with that focus through the remainder of this year and then once the new coach is appointed as I believe it will get us back to being a contender not just for a couple of years, but for 5-6 years like we were from 2014-2020.

 

[Tygrys]

That's fine except there are plenty of people here adding Vlaustin, McIntosh, Pickett, Grimes and Prestia as get rid of along with the others you've mentioned which is crazy

Also I love Taranto and Hopper but they aren't the right people to lead the continued refresh of the list. They've only been here like five minutes and would still be getting used to the Richmond way themselves

We all know how great Bolton is but the question has to be asked is would he have reached these heights had he not had Dusty there to watch and learn from? Maybe he would have but having the example there can only have been beneficial. This is the sort of thing we don't want to lose/give away lightly

Well McIntosh, Picket, Grimes and Prestia have zero trade value, and they'll all finish their AFL careers with Richmond (and bearing in mind their ages through natural attrition). I agree with you about Vlaustin though. There is no hint that he wants to leave, so I don't understand why he is mentioned, anymore than Balta for example.

And as to your point about Bolton, yes that could be true, just like the opposite could be true. Martin leaves and Bolton is forced to assume more responsibility and flourishes as a result. Still what you said is what the club would argue in a any trade negotiation.

But as for Taranto and Hopper, by 2024 they would have been here a year, you'd think that would be long enough for them to get used to the 'Richmond way'. On the contracts they are on, they'll be leading whether they like it or not.

 

[tigerfan1961]

The thing is we've been in contention in most of those games while also playing a large number of players who started the season with under 50 games with Mansell (10) Ryan (10) Clarke (9) Ralphsmith (8) Ross (7) Young (7) Miller (7) Cumberland (6) playing more than half the season so far plus Maurice (5) Sonsie (3) & Dow (1) also getting a look in. That is why I want to see us continue with that focus through the remainder of this year and then once the new coach is appointed as I believe it will get us back to being a contender not just for a couple of years, but for 5-6 years like we were from 2014-2020.

Yes, see what you’re saying but we’ve played those guys mainly due to a horror injury run.

 

[Coach_Required]

I mean we've seen what gutting a list 'for the future' does as that was North Melbourne's strategy like five years ago. It's a complete disaster, the highly touted kids have no one to learn off so don't develop to their full potential or decide to bail, the performances on field are so poor you burn through coaches which also destroys development

Ironically I think the only way we could have gone down that path was if Dimma signed for five years and said he'd see it through

Careful, some posters here who want to see us sit on the bottom for 5 years and just get the top pick will came at you with pitch forks, thinking like that.

 

[Bojangles17]

If we sign a free agent like HH then we will not be compensated if Broad goes as a FA. Just listening to T71 on the podcast tonight it seems Broad may be getting an unrefusable offer to go. If he gets a big offer we would probably be better to take the compo and look at options other than Himmelberg.

If it’s a 4 x 450+ sounds like cholly compo , was that r2

 

[Bojangles17]

I mean we've seen what gutting a list 'for the future' does as that was North Melbourne's strategy like five years ago. It's a complete disaster, the highly touted kids have no one to learn off so don't develop to their full potential or decide to bail, the performances on field are so poor you burn through coaches which also destroys development

Ironically I think the only way we could have gone down that path was if Dimma signed for five years and said he'd see it through

Lol that’s what some of us were worried about , I think the fact there was not a single mention of contract extension, zilch indicates to me dimma was fair dinkum in his thoughts of pulling the pin at season end , not to mention a few rivals may have been whispering sweet nothings in his managers ear about what’s on market to extend his time in the game

 

[Meteoric Rise]

If it’s a 4 x 450+ sounds like cholly compo , was that r2

Chol was end of rd 2 compensation, which ended up about mid 40's.

Broad sounds like he is getting much bigger offers, so should trigger a rd 2 comp pick at least, and at present, that would be roughly mid 20's. If some of the numbers mentioned by T71 in the podcast are correct then possibly even end of first round or first round compensation could be triggered.

 

[_RT_]

Yes, see what you’re saying but we’ve played those guys mainly due to a horror injury run.

We have but even when guys have returned from injury/suspension a lot of them have held their spots and I'd like to see that continue as I believe it's going to be more beneficial for us over the next 2 seasons so that when our older guys are gone we'll have ready to go replacements to bring in rather than simply throwing them in cold.

 

[Bird Man]

Rumour around Dimma going to GC and Dusty following to end hs career on the beaches of Queensland.

Talk is a top-10 pick and we pay half of his salary.

If the Tigers do a clean-out of players ( Hopper and TT gutted ) I would take a young coach pay them less for the rebuild years and bring in extra recruitment staff and coaches for development.

 

[Bojangles17]

Chol was end of rd 2 compensation, which ended up about mid 40's.

Broad sounds like he is getting much bigger offers, so should trigger a rd 2 comp pick at least, and at present, that would be roughly mid 20's. If some of the numbers mentioned by T71 in the podcast are correct then possibly even end of first round or first round compensation could be triggered.

Fmd what kinda numbers we talking , he’s 30,

 

[Bojangles17]

Rumour around Dimma going to GC and Dusty following to end hs career on the beaches of Queensland.

Talk is a top-10 pick and we pay half of his salary.

If the Tigers do a clean-out of players ( Hopper and TT gutted ) I would take a young coach pay them less for the rebuild years and bring in extra recruitment staff and coaches for development.

Dusty going doesnt constitute a clean out , if these vultures wanted to raid us once again I’d be demanding
r1 plus hollands/Flanders
and we’d cough up a bit of Dusty’s contract

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Fmd what kinda numbers we talking , he’s 30,

He is 30 but only in the AFL system 8 years which could help his longevity. The almost unbelievable figure of $800k was mentioned. You would presume a club would be looking at 2 years on very big money or 3 years on a bit less to get him out of Tigerland. But if Broad triggers a first round comp or even end of first round comp, it probably stops us from bringing in a free agent this year.

 

[Bojangles17]

He is 30 but only in the AFL system 8 years which could help his longevity. The almost unbelievable figure of $800k was mentioned. You would presume a club would be looking at 2 years on very big money or 3 years on a bit less to get him out of Tigerland. But if Broad triggers a first round comp or even end of first round comp, it probably stops us from bringing in a free agent this year.

wow wc offering 800 , that will get us min r2 possibly r1

 

[Meteoric Rise]

wow wc offering 800 , that will get us min r2 possibly r1

Yet to be seen if it is for real of course. But even $650k x 3 years I presume would get us rd 2 compo, which may end up a mid 20's pick or high 20's if we start winning some games.

 

[Lord of the Wings]

Chol was end of rd 2 compensation, which ended up about mid 40's.

Broad sounds like he is getting much bigger offers, so should trigger a rd 2 comp pick at least, and at present, that would be roughly mid 20's. If some of the numbers mentioned by T71 in the podcast are correct then possibly even end of first round or first round compensation could be triggered.

Chol was an even up for getting shafted on Branden Ellis. Broady wouldn't be any better than end Rd2

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Chol was an even up for getting shafted on Branden Ellis. Broady wouldn't be any better than end Rd2

If the offer is not enough to trigger better than end of rd 2 comp then I am pretty confident Richmond would be matching it. Broad is a very useful player.

 

[Punt Road Feral]

I might be overly optimistic but I’m hoping we can rebound like Collingwood has
They just made finals in 2020 (us last year) and then had a year from hell in 2021 finishing 17th but playing inexperienced kids majority of the year but were funnily enough competitive with a % of 85%.

Understandably they got top line talent like Daicos coming through and we don’t have draft picks but previously we were able to phase our youngsters like a Bolton, Baker, Short and Graham into our sides.
Now we have no option but to place those that maybe arnt ready but we’re hopefully going to accelerate their development.

 

[Wooden Robot]

The thing is we've been in contention in most of those games while also playing a large number of players who started the season with under 50 games with Mansell (10) Ryan (10) Clarke (9) Ralphsmith (8) Ross (7) Young (7) Miller (7) Cumberland (6) playing more than half the season so far plus Maurice (5) Sonsie (3) & Dow (1) also getting a look in. That is why I want to see us continue with that focus through the remainder of this year and then once the new coach is appointed as I believe it will get us back to being a contender not just for a couple of years, but for 5-6 years like we were from 2014-2020.

We have won games in the past with the players you’ve mentioned - plenty of wins - as we did with the likes of Chol, Markov, CCJ, Eggmolesse-Smith, Garthwaite, Parker, Naish, Stack. The bottom tier ain’t our issue, it’s the drop-off from our top tier that’s killed us.
Riewoldt, Grimes, Prestia, even Cotchin (as good as he has been in a ‘limited’ role have battled big time.
Stars get you to where you want to go.