Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[IlovethePies]

Is taking Syria really a victory? I expect it will turn into another shitshow like Afghanistan

It is a victory in the sense that this has been the goal of US imperialism since 2011, to overthrow the Assad regime and install a regime more favourable to its geopolitical interests.

The Assad regime was an obstacle to it in the Middle east because it was an ally of Iran and of Russia.

You are correct in thinking that a "shitshow" ie a horrific conflict is now going to erupt across Syria as US proxies, Turkish proxies and Israeli forces now race to carve up Syria, sometimes in conflict with each other (US backed Kurdish militia are fighting Turkish backed militia).

Meanwhile the US and Israeli airforces are combining in a mass bombing campaign of Syrian military assets to ensure that whatever regime exists in Syria will be utterly helpless.

Social media is awash with images of HTS death squads arbitrarily executing Alawites just because they are Shiite. This is the nature of the organisation that the US and Israel have now engineered to take over the state in Syria. An Islamic fundamentalist terror organisation which has lost none of the attributes of Al Qaida.

However, the US cannot control what the HTS will do, just like they lost control of the situation when ISIS expanded into Iraq.

The situation is both catastrophic and out of any control.

Putin and the Iranian regime clearly organised with Assad for him to hand over power to the HTS jihadists. This is simply an expression of the total bankruptcy of the Russian regime, which invaded Ukraine falsely thinking that it could cut a deal with imperialism.

Imperialism is out to destroy Putin's regime because Putin's regime represents an obstacle to its geostrategic interests. , The reorganisation of the Middle East, by weakening Hezbollah, now overthrowing Assad, with Iran the next target, is the necessary prelude

 

[IlovethePies]

If the new government played it smart, they could make a lot of money with this pipeline and stuff Russia up at the same time.

Hence why Russia will do everything it can to stop that happening.

That statement aged well

It was clearly the Russian and Iranian governments which together organised with Assad the stand down, and hand over of political power to the US backed HTS.

 

[Jamolad]

Got to feel Prigozhin went about 18 months too early...if he'd kicked off the Wagner coup in today's conditions he might have found he didn't have to march on Moscow, momentum would have seen them carried there in the end.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

It is a victory in the sense that this has been the goal of US imperialism since 2011, to overthrow the Assad regime and install a regime more favourable to its geopolitical interests.

The Assad regime was an obstacle to it in the Middle east because it was an ally of Iran and of Russia.

You are correct in thinking that a "shitshow" ie a horrific conflict is now going to erupt across Syria as US proxies, Turkish proxies and Israeli forces now race to carve up Syria, sometimes in conflict with each other (US backed Kurdish militia are fighting Turkish backed militia).

Meanwhile the US and Israeli airforces are combining in a mass bombing campaign of Syrian military assets to ensure that whatever regime exists in Syria will be utterly helpless.

Social media is awash with images of HTS death squads arbitrarily executing Alawites just because they are Shiite. This is the nature of the organisation that the US and Israel have now engineered to take over the state in Syria. An Islamic fundamentalist terror organisation which has lost none of the attributes of Al Qaida.

However, the US cannot control what the HTS will do, just like they lost control of the situation when ISIS expanded into Iraq.

The situation is both catastrophic and out of any control.

Putin and the Iranian regime clearly organised with Assad for him to hand over power to the HTS jihadists. This is simply an expression of the total bankruptcy of the Russian regime, which invaded Ukraine falsely thinking that it could cut a deal with imperialism.

Imperialism is out to destroy Putin's regime because Putin's regime represents an obstacle to its geostrategic interests. , The reorganisation of the Middle East, by weakening Hezbollah, now overthrowing Assad, with Iran the next target, is the necessary prelude

you have to be trolling. I love how you now constantly run with this word after claiming Putin’s Russia isn’t imperialistic

 

[IlovethePies]

you have to be trolling. I love how you now constantly run with this word after claiming Putin’s Russia isn’t imperialistic

Russia is not an imperialist state.

This is borne out by what happened in Syria.
Russia has abandoned its Syrian outpost because it does not have the resources or capacity to hold out against imperialism.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Russia is not an imperialist state.

This is borne out by what happened in Syria.
Russia has abandoned its Syrian outpost because it does not have the resources or capacity to hold out against imperialism.

Your hatred for America blinds you. There is more than one bad guy out there.

 

[IlovethePies]

Your hatred for America blinds you. There is more than one bad guy out there.

Of course.

I have said many times that Putin is also a "bad guy"

But you don't listen, because you are deaf to anything that challenges your prejudices.

 

[IlovethePies]

Got to feel Prigozhin went about 18 months too early...if he'd kicked off the Wagner coup in today's conditions he might have found he didn't have to march on Moscow, momentum would have seen them carried there in the end.

...and you think Prigozhin would somehow have been better for the Russian people than Putin?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Of course.

I have said many times that Putin is also a "bad guy"

But you don't listen, because you are deaf to anything that challenges your prejudices.

No it’s your nonsensical justifications for this war that I struggle to listen to.

 

[IlovethePies]

Your hatred for America blinds you. There is more than one bad guy out there.

Clarification: I don't hate America.
I hate the American political establishment, Democrats and Republicans alike.


The US working class is the sleeping giant which will wake up soon and redirect the orientation of politics internationally.

The US working class is the ally of working people throughout the world: here in Australia, Europe, Ukraine, Russia, China, Middle East.

And it is the enemy of the fascist imbeciles and senile genocide enablers who populate the US government.

 

[Jamolad]

...and you think Prigozhin would somehow have been better for the Russian people than Putin?

Long term hard to say, but the things Prigozhin was saying about ending the "SMO", yeah, I reckon short-term he'd be better for the Russians and definitely the Ukrainians too.

What do you think? Socialist end to the war, or no end to the war?

 

[IlovethePies]

Long term hard to say, but the things Prigozhin was saying about ending the "SMO", yeah, I reckon short-term he'd be better for the Russians and definitely the Ukrainians too.

What do you think? Socialist end to the war, or no end to the war?

Prigozhin actually advocated a far more aggressive war against Ukraine, and his conflict with Putin was due to the fact that he thought that the Putin regime was hindering it...he was a capitalist billionaire who set up his own mercenary militia...which played a significant role in Ukraine on behalf of Putin, and his mercenary forces also went into Africa where his mercenaries became a significant force in thwarting the interests of the US and its NATO allies on the African continent in favour of Putin.

Even after his attempted coup, Putin attempted a rapprochement with him.

Prighozin represented another section of the capitalist oligarchy in Russia, which differs with the Putin regime only on how best to defend their wealth and privileges against both US/NATO imperialism, and the threat of a working class rebellion within Russia.

 

[Jamolad]

Prigozhin actually advocated a far more aggressive war against Ukraine, and his conflict with Putin was due to the fact that he thought that the Putin regime was hindering it...he was a capitalist billionaire who set up his own mercenary militia...which played a significant role in Ukraine on behalf of Putin, and his mercenary forces also went into Africa where his mercenaries became a significant force in thwarting the interests of the US and its NATO allies on the African continent in favour of Putin.

Even after his attempted coup, Putin attempted a rapprochement with him.

I don't challenge that Prigozhin was not happy with strategy and particularly MoD leadership, that is true...but it is also true that he said the following, which does not sound to me like the words of someone advocating to continue the bullshit invasion

In a video released on 23 June 2023, Prigozhin claimed that the government's justifications for invading Ukraine were based on falsehoods, and that the invasion was designed to further the interests of Russian elites.[63] He accused the MoD of attempting to deceive the public and the president by portraying Ukraine as an aggressive and hostile adversary which, in collaboration with NATO, was plotting an attack on Russian interests. Specifically, he denied that any Ukrainian escalation took place prior to 24 February 2022, which was one of the central points of Russian justification for the war.[64] Prigozhin alleged that Shoigu and the "oligarchic clan" had personal motives for initiating the war.[65] Furthermore, he asserted that the Russian military command intentionally concealed the true number of soldiers killed in Ukraine, with casualties reaching up to 1,000 on certain days.[66]

That ^ is not a call to arms.

It's possible for him to disagree with war strategy, while also being against the whole premise of the war.

 

[IlovethePies]

I don't challenge that Prigozhin was not happy with strategy and particularly MoD leadership, that is true...but it is also true that he said the following, which does not sound to me like the words of someone advocating to continue the bullshit invasion


That ^ is not a call to arms.

It's possible for him to disagree with war strategy, while also being against the whole premise of the war.

It is not possible to be against the war strategy unless you are a socialist.

Prigozhin clearly was never against war: he had a mercenary militia (which he personally built up on the basis of the massive wealth he had accumulated through the basis of forming connections with the criminal layers of the Stalinist bureaucracy who were in the process of liquidating the nationalised wealth of the ex Soviet Union and stealing it for themselves.

You can only oppose war if you oppose capitalism.

 

[Jamolad]

It is not possible to be against the war strategy unless you are a socialist.

Prigozhin clearly was not against war: he had a mercenary militia participating in the war.

You can only oppose war if you oppose capitalism.

Dafuq?

I oppose war. I don't oppose capitalism.

Get a grip.

You only want the war to end if it ends in world-wide socialist revolution. Please answer: if Russia were to withdraw, the war ended, but you didn't get your Socialist revolution, would you be happy that the war ended?

 

[IlovethePies]

Dafuq?

I oppose war. I don't oppose capitalism.

Get a grip.

You only want the war to end if it ends in world-wide socialist revolution. Please answer: if Russia were to withdraw, the war ended, but you didn't get your Socialist revolution, would you be happy that the war ended?

If Russia were to withdraw from Ukraine, the war would not end.

We can already see that from Syria. What happened after Russia's withdrawal from Syria? The US airforce along with Israel's is bombing Syria, and the US proxies who are now in power are in the process of slaughtering Alawite Shiites.

Imperialism is a gigantic beast which will stop at nothing to dominate the world.

Until you understand that, you will understand nothing about the current world situation

You cannot fight against war unless you are committed to fighting capitalism, which is the source of war.

 

[CD Xbow]

If Russia were to withdraw from Ukraine, the war would not end.

We can already see that from Syria. What happened after Russia's withdrawal from Syria? The US airforce along with Israel's is bombing Syria, and the US proxies who are now in power are in the process of slaughtering Alawite Shiites.

Imperialism is a gigantic beast which will stop at nothing to dominate the world.

Until you understand that, you will understand nothing about the current world situation

You cannot fight against war unless you are committed to fighting capitalism, which is the source of war.

I think, if you look though all of history, most wars have been fought by non capitalistic countries, making nonsense of your claim. I'm not sure anyone, other than you, believe HTS are US proxies, FFS, Ahmed al-Sharaa has a $10 million bounty on his head.

 

[tricknologist]

Ah yes, war. The thing that only capitalists wage despite it predating capitalism.

 

[jatz14]

I think, if you look though all of history, most wars have been fought by non capitalistic countries, making nonsense of your claim. I'm not sure anyone, other than you, believe HTS are US proxies, FFS, Ahmed al-Sharaa has a $10 million bounty on his head.

HTS have damaged Russia.
Ipso facto this shows they are US proxies.
The proof that they are US proxies is, they damaged Russia.

The logic is foolproof, because it's inconceivable that people could have beef with Russia, or it's proxies, independent of US manipulation, because they are just so warm and cuddly.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Smeg Head]

Russia is not an imperialist state.

This is borne out by what happened in Syria.
Russia has abandoned its Syrian outpost because it does not have the resources or capacity to hold out against imperialism.

'Russia' is indeed not a state. Clearly a terrorist corporation.

 

[Smeg Head]

HTS have damaged Russia.
Ipso facto this shows they are US proxies.
The proof that they are US proxies is, they damaged Russia.

The logic is foolproof, because it's inconceivable that people could have beef with Russia, or it's proxies, independent of US manipulation, because they are just so warm and cuddly.

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Oh shit, this means that since russia has damaged russia, they too must be US proxies.

 

[The Terrible Thinker]

Imperialism is a gigantic beast which will stop at nothing to dominate the world.

Quite ironic that Russia is the largest country by area in the world and they still want to steal other countries land.

 

[BATTERY]

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Mobbs]

Thanks for your shares folks.

There have been 11 waves of massive attacks on energy infrastructure over 2024.

Ukraine has lost 9GW of generating capacity over the year.

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