List Mgmt. “It’s a form of tanking” the Richmond rebuild

[Dr Tigris]

Sonsie is too soft IMO.

Chooses when he wants to go. Talent wise he's up there but there's a reason why he slid so far down the pecking order come draft day.

That's why I had him anywhere from F to A grade.

Sometimes he looks A grade. Sometimes he looks well below VFL grade. If he can toughen up, and improve his work ethic Sonsie could be anything. But 'if' is a big word.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

If Dunkley was deemed a big enough talent he was going directly to the Swans. They fluffed it.

Makes no difference to what I said, no one can take Ashcroft. He’s effectively not even in the draft.

So to answer a simple question: “ are Richmond getting the best underage player who is in this crop?” Yes or no

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You are reading very different draft assessments to the ones I am reading. There is no general consensus about the number 1 pick, much less that it is Ashcroft. The ones I have seen floated most in recent times are O'Sullivan and Lalor.

But the two things most people seem to agree on is there are 5-6-7 elite talents at the top of the draft, including Ashcroft, any one of them worthy of pick 1, and the draft has a lot of depth down to around 30 deep. I am sure at least one of the teams with a top 6 pick would prefer Ashcroft was in the pool, but you will know if Richmond is in that category, because they will bid on him if they are.

There isn’t 5-7 elite talents at the top end, it is just an even spread in the first few rounds of good footballers. It’s a deep draft but not a strong draft

Do you think a team with pick 3 would trade down to picks 12+14 if it is a draft with 6-7 elites?? WCE see it very differently

 

[Footy Smarts]

I agree some of these guys are best 22 but TBH our best 22 is quite poor now.

You're right this is the biggest mistake certain Tiger fans are making. A young player comes in and gets a couple of games and certain fans immediately decided they're a likely type.

The reality is if you're in your 3rd season or later and can't consistently hold your spot in the worst team in the comp it's a very bad sign.

And there wasn't a single individual performance from a player younger than Noah Balta that attracted a coaches vote or a rising star nomination. At some point you need young players to really impact a game to have confidence in them and not one did.

 

[Andyy]

No, he isn’t, he is widely tipped the best in the crop.

Any citations?

 

[Andyy]

You're right this is the biggest mistake certain Tiger fans are making. A young player comes in and gets a couple of games and certain fans immediately decided they're a likely type.

The reality is if you're in your 3rd season or later and can't consistently hold your spot in the worst team in the comp it's a very bad sign.

And there wasn't a single individual performance from a player younger than Noah Balta that attracted a coaches vote or a rising star nomination. At some point you need young players to really impact a game to have confidence in them and not one did.

Yep, this is my theory.

A very low % of players are 'slow burners' who suddenly establish themselves in their mid-20's lol.

That first 3 years is critical, and the issue I've seen with RFC is playing older guys above the kids.

Most other clubs, including successful ones, have managed to get more games into kids - despite playing finals and contesting etc.

 

[Grrr]

You're right this is the biggest mistake certain Tiger fans are making. A young player comes in and gets a couple of games and certain fans immediately decided they're a likely type.

The reality is if you're in your 3rd season or later and can't consistently hold your spot in the worst team in the comp it's a very bad sign.

And there wasn't a single individual performance from a player younger than Noah Balta that attracted a coaches vote or a rising star nomination. At some point you need young players to really impact a game to have confidence in them and not one did.

But it's not that linear. For example Bauer (who might be the player you are using as an example of one good game). Mid season draft who comes in after excellent form in the VFL, plays 5 minutes and does a hammy, season over.

Has no preseason due to injury over summer, finally comes in late in the season to a side that is being smashed and takes 5 contested marks on Sicily. So you think we may have one here. That is not wishful thinking, that is judging a player on performance and not how old he is or where he came in the B&F.

Every club has examples of this, whether by injury or age or lack of opportunity. You can't trash all the youth of a side just because they have not established themselves, even in the worst team. Dylan Grimes would for example be in that category that you mention, Astbury the same. Rance didn't play a game in his first year, Bolton played 5 in his first year, 3 in his second. There's 2 A graders.

 

[Footy Smarts]

And how was Brown not impressive in his first year.

You really need to stop lying to yourself with this "first year" nonsense about a 3rd year player.

Tom Brown in his 3rd year didn't receive a coaches vote or a rising star nomination. He finished equal 16th in the B&F for the wooden spoon team with less votes per game than McIntosh, Banks and Koschitzke.

You saying he was impressive is utterly deluded.

Gobsmacked in regard to Ralphsmith. He had a very good year, I made the comment myself in another thread that how the hell he was 16th when MacIntosh was 10th. I had him over Baker this year

Thinking he was better than Baker is very funny.

Yes Cumberland has disappointed, but I'm not on my own there. Talent to burn but lacks footy nous, that can be hidden until really exposed by good opponents. Dow finished the '23 season like he was going to be a player, but did not develop. That happens at every club.

It happens with most players who are left playing VFL in their 4th season. You deluded yourself into thinking you knew better than Hardwick. When a legendary coach basically tells you a player is shit by refusing to pick them it's best to believe them.

 

[blaisee]

Cats fans talking about Ashcroft not being in the draft like its a bad thing for Richmond make me laugh

Ashcroft is one of 5/6 mids rated about the same

But the truth is, it worked out really well for Richmond, because we got another first round draft pick by working the system and giving Brisbane our junk and getting back Pick 20 lol

Other than Brisbane, we are the only team that benefitted from Ashcroft being tied to Brisbane

 

[blaisee]

So many angry cats fans on this thread getting emotional

You would almost feel as though they where getting nervous at the thought of this rebuild being done right

Question has to be asked

Who is closer to a flag, Geelong or Richmond?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

There isn’t 5-7 elite talents at the top end, it is just an even spread in the first few rounds of good footballers. It’s a deep draft but not a strong draft

Do you think a team with pick 3 would trade down to picks 12+14 if it is a draft with 6-7 elites?? WCE see it very differently

Do you think a team would trade up from 12 + 14 to get pick 3 if there were't going to be elite players available at 3(or 4)? Your trouble is it was a 2 sided transaction, so it proves nothing either way.

You are making unnsupported claims and dressing them up as fact.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

So many angry cats fans on this thread getting emotional

You would almost feel as though they where getting nervous at the thought of this rebuild being done right

Question has to be asked

Who is closer to a flag, Geelong or Richmond?

The answer to that is possibly debatable. What is not debatable is who is closer to a dynasty. The obvious answer whether looking forward or back is Richmond.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So to answer a simple question: “ are Richmond getting the best underage player who is in this crop?” Yes or no

What part of ‘he’s not available to anyone ther than the Lions’ do you not understand?

 

[Footy Smarts]

But it's not that linear. For example Bauer (who might be the player you are using as an example of one good game). Mid season draft who comes in after excellent form in the VFL, plays 5 minutes and does a hammy, season over.

Has no preseason due to injury over summer, finally comes in late in the season to a side that is being smashed and takes 5 contested marks on Sicily. So you think we may have one here. That is not wishful thinking, that is judging a player on performance and not how old he is or where he came in the B&F.

I know nothing about Bauer and didn't watch that match. But from 2 seconds research I can see he was:

1) His draft was 2020 but was passed over by the Swans academy.
2) Was recruited in the mid season draft in 2022 and played 9 VFL games without getting a debut.
3) Played every VFL game in 2023 when Richmond's forward line was a mess before finally getting a debut in round 17.
4) Played 8 VFL games this year when Richmond's forward line was a mess before finally being selected. Not exactly desperate to get him in.

Let's be honest. He's an undersized tall forward which is an extremely tough role to play. Very few succeed there.

He's 22 already and multiple coaches with very poor forward lines have left him in the vfl. Players like Koschitzke and Ryan were preferred to him when he was fit at different points this year.

Is it more likely that he's an excellent player who multiple coaches have not really rated? Or that focusing on a specific stat from a specific game overstates his ability?

 

[Grrr]

You really need to stop lying to yourself with this "first year" nonsense about a 3rd year player.

Tom Brown in his 3rd year didn't receive a coaches vote or a rising star nomination. He finished equal 16th in the B&F for the wooden spoon team with less votes per game than McIntosh, Banks and Koschitzke.

You saying he was impressive is utterly deluded.



Thinking he was better than Baker is very funny.



It happens with most players who are left playing VFL in their 4th season. You deluded yourself into thinking you knew better than Hardwick. When a legendary coach basically tells you a player is shit by refusing to pick them it's best to believe them.

First year in the VFL. He was injured in his second season and did not play VFL until R.11, debuted late in year, and played 18 games last season. Not good enough. He was lauded by commentators plenty of times over the year. Easily the best kick at Richmond.


There would not be a poster on our board, nor any board most likely, who would think that Brown and Ralphsmith were not better, quite a bit better, than MacIntosh and Koschitzke. Banks played some good games so that's okay.

Baker was pretty average this year and unlike Rioli has checked out, he said as much himself. Perhaps a little upping his performances in the B&F because it would up his trade value, of course that could never happen.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

No, he isn’t, he is widely tipped the best in the crop.

I don't think that's accurate.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

There isn’t 5-7 elite talents at the top end, it is just an even spread in the first few rounds of good footballers. It’s a deep draft but not a strong draft

Do you think a team with pick 3 would trade down to picks 12+14 if it is a draft with 6-7 elites?? WCE see it very differently

West Coast are too scared to draft a non-Victorian, plus needed the pick to trade for Baker.

This draft is widely considered to be a super draft analogous with 2018 (Walsh, Lukoscious, Smith, Rankine, Rozee, Kingx2)

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I know nothing about Bauer and didn't watch that match. But from 2 seconds research I can see he was:

1) His draft was 2020 but was passed over by the Swans academy.
2) Was recruited in the mid season draft in 2022 and played 9 VFL games without getting a debut.
3) Played every VFL game in 2023 when Richmond's forward line was a mess before finally getting a debut in round 17.
4) Played 8 VFL games this year when Richmond's forward line was a mess before finally being selected. Not exactly desperate to get him in.

Let's be honest. He's an undersized tall forward which is an extremely tough role to play. Very few succeed there.

He's 22 already and multiple coaches with very poor forward lines have left him in the vfl. Players like Koschitzke and Ryan were preferred to him when he was fit at different points this year.

Is it more likely that he's an excellent player who multiple coaches have not really rated? Or that focusing on a specific stat from a specific game overstates his ability?

Bauer has played as much in defence as in attack in the VFL. He has some decent strengths but obviously also some weaknesses. He is not going to be a key component of Richmond's rebuild. But he is in there with a small but realistic chance of forging a decent 1-200 game career like a lot of the other unproven players on Richnmond's list. There are probably a dozen in a similar boat, Bauer, Lefau, Miller, Ralphsmith, Young, Trezise, Sonsie, Banks, Clarke, Green, Smith, McAuliffe, Fawcett, Blight, Gray. They won't all succeed, they won't all fail. If 5-6 of those 15 prove up to the job added to Taranto, Hopper, Balta, Gibcus, Brown, Rioli, Mansell, Campbell who all look good things to play 1-200 games for the club, you've got 12-14 players there all ready to be joined by about 13 top 30 draft picks and some some quality free agents plus great picks in rookie, pre-season and mid-season drafts. In 4-5 years Richmond is almost certain to be having to release players they can't fit into their plans.

 

[Wojcinski]

So many angry cats fans on this thread getting emotional

You would almost feel as though they where getting nervous at the thought of this rebuild being done right

Question has to be asked

Who is closer to a flag, Geelong or Richmond?

Richmond fans refrain from make everything about Geelong challenge level [IMPOSSIBLE]

Draft picks are great but you have to nail the picks and then properly develop the players. Geelong had 3 players in the top 10 of the Rising Star, including the winner. Richmond had zero. Geelong also had 3 players in the 22under22. Richmond again had zero.

Geelong are lightyears ahead of Richmond in the chase for a flag.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Bauer has played as much in defence as in attack in the VFL. He has some decent strengths but obviously also some weaknesses. He is not going to be a key component of Richmond's rebuild. But he is in there with a small but realistic chance of forging a decent 1-200 game career

That's a horribly fair description. You need to warn me before posting something so reasonable.