List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part II

[bird_man]

How do I answer a question 6 weeks before the club have to have decided what to do?

I would say just wait and see what happens.

De Goey was clearly plan A.

Who knows how it pans out from here. I think they’ll try and stock picks in the top 30 for Clark Hill and Long + try package up some picks for Brisbanes as an example.

(Currently we have 9+27 hypothetically speaking what if we got 7+16+19 (our 27 probably becomes 30) so we hypothetically have 7+9+16+19+30)

Can’t be going backwards if that’s what we do seeing as Clark and Long have barely played. Most supporters can’t stand Hill. So that would be a win, no?

Nothing else makes sense at the minute. But then I didn’t know the Clark news until you all did. So maybe there is something more. But I doubt it.

Cut our losses. Cash in the chips. Hope Coffield/Hayes, 5 top 30 picks and maybe some delisted players improve us - which it probably would.

I think a fit and firing Clark is more likely to improve us than either of those other two or any delisted free agent.

I suppose you can argue that we don't lose anything because he hasn't played a lot, but it does really hamper our chances of improving.

I could definitely see Clarkson getting the best out of him. This is possibly why he'd be considering it.

 

[stavro#4]

I think a fit and firing Clark is more likely to improve us than either of those other two or any delisted free agent.

I suppose you can argue that we don't lose anything because he hasn't played a lot, but it does really hamper our chances of improving.

I could definitely see Clarkson getting the best out of him. This is possibly why he'd be considering it.

And both opinions aren’t unreasonable.

It makes sense to trade him if we got a Cerra offer as it’s not a loss based on the last 18 months. Takes the pressure off him and us.

Resets the list demographic if we say added 5, 18 year olds in the top 30 in place of Geary Hanners Kent Ryder Joyce

 

[Diehard Saint]

No - we are talking about Brad Hil wanting to leave. Not same made up scenario you and others are creating.

The same Brad Hill with the same manager who walked out on 2 clubs prior to us mid contract

Got a bit of history, hasn’t he?

 

[t_94]

Don’t get too attached to anyone. We need to get better.

Last time we had this chat on this board it was in the context of getting ruthless at the end of 2019.

Hill - been poor apart from
maybe 10 genuinely good games. Serong + Acres would have been far better.
Howard - decent player but not a world beater. Limited and too error prone to be a top liner.
Jones - glimpses but currently nowhere.
Butler - decent value pick up but goes missing a lot. Gap between best and worst is vast.
Ryder - great value but a stop gap.

I doubt we are going to attract players that will help us really move from the mid table purgatory of 7th - 11th Going to have to draft our way out.

 

[bird_man]

And both opinions aren’t unreasonable.

It makes sense to trade him if we got a Cerra offer as it’s not a loss based on the last 18 months. Takes the pressure off him and us.

Resets the list demographic if we say added 5, 18 year olds in the top 30 in place of Geary Hanners Kent Ryder Joyce

The other argument is that trading out your best 23 year olds for a shot at another 18 year old is making it much harder to win a flag with Sinclar, Steele, Membrey, Marshall etc.

By the time they are Clark's age those guys will be in their 30's past their best.

It would suggest that we are going in for another rebuild.

 

[sunny3193]

Here’s a hypothetical: imagine for a moment that we get North’s future 1st.
It is irrelevant how as that is not the hypothetical.
We do not want their future first because we want/need to use the pick this year.
Again, it is irrelevant why as that is not the hypothetical.
So we put North’s future first on the market.
What is it’s worth to one of the other clubs?

 

[Diehard Saint]

For more money for a longer period of time.
Like most people would.

To play in front of 25 000 people and lose all his Collingwood contacts and benefits?
Not bloody likely.

 

[stavro#4]

The other argument is that trading out your best 23 year olds for a shot at another 18 year old is making it much harder to win a flag with Sinclar, Steele, Membrey, Marshall etc.

By the time they are Clark's age those guys will be in their 30's past their best.

It would suggest that we are going in for another rebuild.

But it’s most likely that an injection of youth as the unknown quantity could give us the shot in the arm we need to challenge under those players ala pendles and the pies.

Anyway. Who knows - let’s see what happens.

 

[bird_man]

But it’s most likely that an injection of youth as the unknown quantity could give us the shot in the arm we need to challenge under those players ala pendles and the pies.

Anyway. Who knows - let’s see what happens.

I love the idea of injection of youth, just clearly not a fan of using Clark to get it.

I get that it's hard to bring in good picks without giving up good players but I think we need to find another way.

Trading Hill and Long will give us a very good hand to trade up to Brisbanes pick. Unfortunately There will be other teams wanting to do the same.

I think the points we currently have already come close. If we could get a 3rd for Long that's more than enough.

Then do what it takes to get a decent 2nd for Hill, even if we pay a large chunk of his contract.

Hit the draft with 9, 15 and a pick in the 20's

Easier said than done I know, but our 24 and unders are the ones most likely to take us somewhere.

 

[OxSaint]

When was the last time St Kilda got good value trading a player out?

 

[Veer Right]

I really don't get the angst of Clark being traded if that nets us a high pick this year. When was the last time he was in our best and how often?

It's like being dealt pocket aces in holdem, you get five callers, there is action post flop and you can't let it go.

He has shown flashes of quality, he's also shown alot more of struggling in games to have the impact we want. Are we that married to him?

Absolute keepers are,

King
Owens
Windy
Nas
Marshall
Steele
Wilkie
Sinclair

 

[stavro#4]

I really don't get the angst of Clark being traded if that nets us a high pick this year. When was the last time he was in our best and how often?

It's like being dealt pocket aces in holdem, you get five callers, there is action post flop and you can't let it go.

He has shown flashes of quality, he's also shown alot more of struggling in games to have the impact we want. Are we that married to him?

Absolute keepers are,

King
Owens
Windy
Nas
Marshall
Steele
Wilkie
Sinclair

He was 5th in our BnF when Mackay turned him into a pancake wasn’t he?

 

[bird_man]

I really don't get the angst of Clark being traded if that nets us a high pick this year. When was the last time he was in our best and how often?

It's like being dealt pocket aces in holdem, you get five callers, there is action post flop and you can't let it go.

He has shown flashes of quality, he's also shown alot more of struggling in games to have the impact we want. Are we that married to him?

Absolute keepers are,

King
Owens
Windy
Nas
Marshall
Steele
Wilkie
Sinclair

No one should be off the table for an over the top price. But I think most know we won't be getting a top 5 pick for him. That's where the talent sits in this draft and anything outside of that would be pointless IMO.

In terms of being named in the best, it's obvious he hasn't been able to reach his best the last 16 months with the amount of injuries he's had.

But if you look back at his form prior to having his head caved in he was named in the best (according to AFL.com) in 8 of the 16 games leading up to it.

That's including a couple where he was named best and 2 of them were in finals.

He was top 10 in the 2020 best and fairest and was polling very well prior to injury last year.

Not bad for a young player

 

[Verdun66]

When was the last time St Kilda got good value trading a player out?

Most of them get better elsewhere sadly. Watching Acres play so well was a bit galling to be honest. Can’t think of a return pick that went well. Off the top of my head. Glad to be corrected.

 

[Veer Right]

He was 5th in our BnF when Mackay turned him into a pancake wasn’t he?

I don't know? How about this then..



Disposals are not where they need to be for a mid and doesn't kick goals or set them up....

It's not about rubbishing him. What exactly are we expecting moving forwards. What position is he expected to play? What's the evidence season six will see marked improvement?

 

[bird_man]

I don't know? How about this then..

View attachment 1505657

Disposals are not where they need to be for a mid and doesn't kick goals or set them up....

It's not about rubbishing him. What exactly are we expecting moving forwards. What position is he expected to play? What's the evidence season six will see marked improvement?

Nothing wrong with his possession count up until this year. He's really played midfield so it's unfair to compare his stats to a mid.

When he has his stats have been good

20 touches in 2019
Almost 20 in 2020 with reduced minutes

It was clearly tracking in the right direction before injury.

As has been mentioned it's no surprise his from has dropped with injuries.

In terms of where he plays, I don't see that it matters that much. If he plays his career at half back has still going to be a quality player.

I'd imagine he'd want to play more midfield though

 

[pebblesofsand]

Bad news - I've heard that Clark is definitely on the move.

Apparently is disgusted that he's only been selected for 21 of the last 44 Saints games.

Sick of being overlooked by the selection panel. Reckons they have it in for him.

Reckons he'll get more of a chance with other clubs, Dons are the frontrunners.

 

[BigMonty]

I agree with everything you've said and would add that we have a talent problem that affects these issues.

That problem is a lack of marking ability in the midfield, Steele is average to good, DMac is good, Long is good, (I would keep him and play him on the wing) Sinclair, Paton and Wood are ok, but the rest of the midfield group is poor to atrocious. Hill, Gresham, Jones, Billings, Kent, Butler, Crouch, Clark, Byrnes and Bytel. Both Windhager and Owens seem to have potential.

Now it seems that a lot of these blokes aren't midfielders but when we transition from defence, half forwards and running half backs become part of the midfield group.

My eye test would say that Hill, Jones, Gresham, Billings, Kent and Crouch are almost toxic when marking the ball, a 30m pass with no opponent within 10m can easily be spilled and turnover created, when we have players like Hill, Billings with lack of physicality, Jones and Gresham with poor disposal, we really have trouble implementing any system.

In my eyes this is why we persisted with Battle as a wingman, if Wood hadn't come on I think Highmore would be playing in the backline and Battle would still be on the wing.

Also, our drop in form coincides with injuries to Steele and DMac creating an even greater risk of moving the ball through the midfield, slower play than at season start, trying to play precise football with poor skills, no midfield marking option means the opposition all know we are looking for Marshall, King Membrey, Wood but going into next season we don't have too many options. Yes to Jack Hayes but there are still question marks over him the same with Sharman.

In this trade period I'd be happy to let go of Hill, Billings, Jones, not so keen but ok about letting go of Clark, Highmore, Gresham. Of course the better the footballer is the more we would want to get for them. I can see why we got Allison and have signed him on again, I have great hope for Windy, Owens, Heath and Hayes, who succeeds from that group and how well developed they are for next year really determines who we target in trades, I haven't looked to hard but certainly Degoey in football terms would be a no brainer, but we need a marking ruckman, a CHF or a medium marking forward I'd love us to get Zurhaar but he's off the table, maybe Rotugolea. If we can turn Hill into Goater I'd like that.

Take our first and second to the draft, trade for needs.

Much as I like Cam McKenzie maybe Bailey Humphrey is a better bet.

Like your thinking re marking ability with on ballers. Billings is not a bad mark the rest are so so.
Can now see the logic in Battle and was always impressed with Farren Ray as that marking target one on one. Marking athletic wingman al la Richo and Rooey at the end of his career are game changers. Makes the quick get out kick turn into the start ofcan attacking thrust.

That's why DMac and Wood and (forgot about) Hayes are so important and Hill so unimportant to our structure.

Owens can take a grab and will be important going forward je and Windy can give Steele a chop out and even put him on a wing for 5 minutes as that marking option.

Lots to play out but do agree we need a mid sized quick who can take a mark. Then again doesn't everybody. Potentially Acres was that bloke pity he is playing elsewhere.

On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Veer Right]

Nothing wrong with his possession count up until this year. He's really played midfield so it's unfair to compare his stats to a mid.

When he has his stats have been good

20 touches in 2019
Almost 20 in 2020 with reduced minutes

It was clearly tracking in the right direction before injury.

As has been mentioned it's no surprise his from has dropped with injuries.

In terms of where he plays, I don't see that it matters that much. If he plays his career at half back has still going to be a quality player.

I'd imagine he'd want to play more midfield though

Then there's the issue of who we currently have to play half back. Sinclair, Webster, Hill, Coffield, Jones (imo) and Clark. You can say toss Paton back to the seconds to free up another position but he is an actual defender. Then say we do grab a full back to replace Howard which in turn moves him into another defensive position.

We can do the same exercise for the midfielders.

We have excess to our needs in some positions while needing to address others.

 

[SaintyMcSaintface]

Bad news - I've heard that Clark is definitely on the move.

Apparently is disgusted that he's only been selected for 21 of the last 44 Saints games.

Sick of being overlooked by the selection panel. Reckons they have it in for him.

Reckons he'll get more of a chance with other clubs, Dons are the frontrunners.

Is this a joke? Hasn't he been selected when healthy?

 

[Verdun66]

Bad news - I've heard that Clark is definitely on the move.

Apparently is disgusted that he's only been selected for 21 of the last 44 Saints games.

Sick of being overlooked by the selection panel. Reckons they have it in for him.

Reckons he'll get more of a chance with other clubs, Dons are the frontrunners.

Dealing with Dodoro again if that’s true. Great. Hasn’t he missed quite a few of those games out injured though?

 

[gringo2011]

What’s the definition of insanity?



Doing something is better than doing nothing, No?

No, sometimes you're better to hold and keep topping up with your actual picks. They arse around built the list then want to turn around and go back. I'd say that in the last 4 years we have been changing the list up much more than most stable clubs do. Sometimes you just have to keep adding players and put games into them.

Buying up older players hasn't helped, youth looks like it will help but we should get a gun recruiter at that point or it will be more of the same. Picking the wrong players has been a big part of the issue.

 

[bird_man]

Dealing with Dodoro again if that’s true. Great. Hasn’t he missed quite a few of those games out injured though?

He's just having a laugh mate

 

[bird_man]

Then there's the issue of who we currently have to play half back. Sinclair, Webster, Hill, Coffield, Jones (imo) and Clark. You can say toss Paton back to the seconds to free up another position but he is an actual defender. Then say we do grab a full back to replace Howard which in turn moves him into another defensive position.

We can do the same exercise for the midfielders.

We have excess to our needs in some positions while needing to address others.

Hopefully Hill is gone.

Jones I wouldn't be playing off half back. Definitely not in front of Clark.

We always seem to think we have too many half backs but we rarely produce any of quality.

 

[stavro#4]

Bad news - I've heard that Clark is definitely on the move.

Apparently is disgusted that he's only been selected for 21 of the last 44 Saints games.

Sick of being overlooked by the selection panel. Reckons they have it in for him.

Reckons he'll get more of a chance with other clubs, Dons are the frontrunners.