List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[MrFoster]

If the market actually thought Shiel was worth Pick 13 then its see you later Seb Ross. Essendon supporters are delusional.

Sebastian Ross and Dylan Shiel AFL Stats Comparison

Sebastian Ross and Dylan Shiel AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Of course they are, Shiel has played 39 games out of a possible 70 in the last 3 years, only averaging 20 possessions once in those 3 years, so I think a 3rd round pick or a late 2nd for helping us getting pick 13 would be fair.

 

[Mangus]

Essendon would clearly have to be getting something more out of the deal for it to make sense.

1 year of a contract would not be a huge burden on them. At the moment both sets of fans seem to think it's them that will end up with pick 13.

I think for Essendon to be bumping that offer up so far for Gresham they would have to expect we pay overs for Shiel.

Maybe we end up with 13 and find an early 2nd to give them for Shiel. I'm not sure, but there must be something else involved for it to make sense for both clubs.

Only makes sense if:

• The Essendon Cap is not quite as fat next year as stated Parish McKay Gresham and Goldstein contracts may be eating up a lot of the reported space
• Or maybe they have their eyes on someone else, still have their full hand of draft picks and might need cash to splash on that deal
• Or maybe they want to front end contracts in 2024 so they retain the capacity to add more free agents next year. Their strategy appears to be Free Agency and Draft and one year of this won’t bridge the gap. They need to be able to do it over multiple years. If they can Front Load McKay and Gresham next year and get them on more realistic salaries from that point on they will set them selves up to keep returning to the Free Agency pool in 2024 and beyond. McKay in particular if he is on a 5 year deal at 750 - 800 that is a big burden to carry. Alternatively if you can front load significantly and get him on 600 -650 for the last 4 years then that is smart planning. By the end of the contract he will be on an average AFL wage with the CBA kicking in.

Suspect if this is really a viable option they are considering it is the third point that is driving them to do it as it allows them to sustain their strategy over multiple years. Effectively taking Sheils wage to front load McKay and Gresham and keep them well under the cap in 2025 and beyond. Puts them into a position to make a play for Ben King in 2024 and that would take a $1M plus offer per year, they will need to significantly overpay to win a bidding war on King.

The counter argument is Dodo is a win lose trader so unless he has been sidelined I doubt he wants his last trade period to be remembered as the one where he gave up Shiel for nothing and overpayed Gresham to give Saints a 1st round pick. The David Kings and Kane Cornes of the world will have a field day misunderstanding the value Ess gain.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

So 2 late firsts and a 2nd?

On top of the 2nd and 3rd already received

That's quite some hand outs

Yep, and while not “hand outs”, but equalisation working, all of the other picks that they have and have already used (including McKay, whether Norf supporters think that’s just business or not).

 

[stfan]

I agree top A grade players are difficult to get in free agency.

St Kilda are simply not going to land an A Grade Free Agent. Guns/A Graders will choose, if they, move another club. That is what history shows.

FA's that we can get in are Crouch and below types. The only way that may change is if we have already become a very good team. So a gun FA is never going to help us become a good team.

If we have a plan reliant on bringing in A Grade FA Talent in order to become a contender it will be doomed to failure.

 

[Remboy]

St Kilda are simply not going to land an A Grade Free Agent. Guns/A Graders will choose, if they, move another club. That is what history shows.

FA's that we can get in are Crouch and below types. The only way that may change is if we have already become a very good team. So a gun FA is never going to help us become a good team.

If we have a plan reliant on bringing in A Grade FA Talent in order to become a contender it will be doomed to failure.

The biggest reason we won’t land a gun free agent is that there arent many gun free agents available. Who are the best this year? McKay and Gresham.
When we got Crouch he was the best available.
Occasionally you’ll get a Buddy Franklin but it’s so infrequent you can’t pin your hopes on it. We need to build the bulk of our side through trades and drafting and then use free agency to top it up when someone becomes available.

 

[Premium]

Of course they are, Shiel has played 39 games out of a possible 70 in the last 3 years, only averaging 20 possessions once in those 3 years, so I think a 3rd round pick or a late 2nd for helping us getting pick 13 would be fair.

Pick 50 , he is a salary dump.

 

[akaifu]

Owens seems to be a shy kid too. He doesn't seem to like the attention much. Phillipou is 100% a natural celebrity. He feeds off the energy of people adoring him. If his game day gets as good as his media performances he'll be a natural face of the club type.

I feel like Owens is shy now but will slowly build the charisma. Him doing those interviews for saints.com.au during the season was hilarious and he seems really comfortable alongside Windy. Hopefully them two, Pou, Nas, King etc can form a bond similar to Hawkins,Danger,Selwood,Smith etc at the Cats.

 

[akaifu]

There is no universe where Dylan Shiel is worth a first round pick at 30 years of age. Utter nonsense.

Bombers fans tend to think otherwise its hilarious how delusional they are

 

[Premium]

I can't see us getting him cheap. Most Essendon fans seem to be freaking out and want our pick 13 for him. If they have all of this cap space this year already and he comes off the books at the end of 2024 I can't see why they'd just throw him away.

Shiel was good at GWS where he could be the fourth best mid and run free, in a weaker midfield he looked like a very ordinary player. He'd probably be better with us because of the bigger bodies around him but unless he was nearly free he's a bit of a distraction and not got any long term viability. His body has always struggled too. Even when he plays it's often carrying something.

If we don't get him for our pick 50 we don't want him - he is a salary dump - we would not even be looking at him otherwise , he has been useless at the Bombers another of there trades were they paid over the top to get him and he performed like a spud and at 30 he is not going to get any better.
He will only be on the list to get us another first round pick which could help get us higher into the top 10.

We need the Suns pick 4

 

[akaifu]

The thing with Shiel is that he can still be that explosive midfielder when fully fit, albeit not at his AA best. Essendon played him there for the first 8ish weeks of the season and he averaged like 87 rating points and 24ish possessions from around 60% cbas. When he got moved to half forward, that's when he was out of form and was being criticised.

At the Saints, he'll be a full time midfielder (I'd assume) with at least 60 or 70% centre bounce attendances, which according to his early-year form, would result in an average of 25 explosive disposals more or less. Considering how cheap we'd be getting him and our salary cap room now, its a small risk well worth taking to help our midfield improve.

 

[Premium]

I feel like Owens is shy now but will slowly build the charisma. Him doing those interviews for saints.com.au during the season was hilarious and he seems really comfortable alongside Windy. Hopefully them two, Pou, Nas, King etc can form a bond similar to Hawkins,Danger,Selwood,Smith etc at the Cats.

Ablett senior and Lockett avoided the media , I don't really care if they talk at all as long as the perform.

Time to stop all the social media crap a concentrate on football.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Howard’s body is completely shot and he’s only playing for the money. I know this for a fact. Otherwise he would put the que in the rack.

Campbell he should never play another AFL game. Honest VFL type but honestly.

I don’t see any of the others I mentioned in our next premiership. I’m not saying get rid of them as they are still really solid players I just wouldn’t be assuming many are there after next year and if most of them aren’t getting getting pushed out in 2 years we are in trouble.

I’m not against keeping Gresham on $550 and a two year deal with an option for a third based on his output. If he wants $750 or more years and he can get it then go.

Not sure as impressive as Owens and Pou are that they are going to be the genuine mids we need. Great support mids that are dynamic going forward also.

First time I’ve heard that Richmond team called pedestrian hate to get your assessment of our current team if they were pedestrian. Had one of the best captains in Cotch of recent times (midfielder & top draft pick) most powerful and dynamic onballers ever in Dusty (top draft pick) then added Tom lynch and Dion Prestia through aggressive trade. Add Raines, Riewoldt,Grimes, Vlausten, Bolton all good draft picks. They probably had the best group of top 10 players of any team. Had some good fillers around that though. They made strong list decisions the years ahead of this and then it does take a little bit of time

Yeah Geoff Raines was a gun , not so much Andrew

Bit harsh on the lads i think

 

[Premium]

The thing with Shiel is that he can still be that explosive midfielder when fully fit, albeit not at his AA best. Essendon played him there for the first 8ish weeks of the season and he averaged like 87 rating points and 24ish possessions from around 60% cbas. When he got moved to half forward, that's when he was out of form and was being criticised.

At the Saints, he'll be a full time midfielder (I'd assume) with at least 60 or 70% centre bounce attendances, which according to his early-year form, would result in an average of 25 explosive disposals more or less. Considering how cheap we'd be getting him and our salary cap room now, its a small risk well worth taking to help our midfield improve.

Since Shiel has been at the Bombers he has been absolutely trash , not even averaging 19 disposals a game this year and turning 31 do you think he is going to get any better when in the last 4 seasons he has been lucky to get on the field for half a season.
He is just a salary dump - hopefully the year we have him he can play a few games but to me he will be behind Owens and Windhager - to me he is just giving us another first round pick or we would not even be talking about him.

 

[St Neil]

I can't see us getting him cheap. Most Essendon fans seem to be freaking out and want our pick 13 for him. If they have all of this cap space this year already and he comes off the books at the end of 2024 I can't see why they'd just throw him away.

Shiel was good at GWS where he could be the fourth best mid and run free, in a weaker midfield he looked like a very ordinary player. He'd probably be better with us because of the bigger bodies around him but unless he was nearly free he's a bit of a distraction and not got any long term viability. His body has always struggled too. Even when he plays it's often carrying something.

Shiel is in his 30s, injury prone and a ball butcher. Honestly he’s worth a packet of chips and a Violet Crumble. Don’t want.

The thought that Essendon fans would seriously ask for our first pick for him is both delusional and sad.

Shiel is a salary dump and nothing more.

 

[akaifu]

Since Shiel has been at the Bombers he has been absolutely trash , not even averaging 19 disposals a game this year and turning 31 do you think he is going to get any better when in the last 4 seasons he has been lucky to get on the field for half a season.
He is just a salary dump - hopefully the year we have him he can play a few games but to me he will be behind Owens and Windhager - to me he is just giving us another first round pick or we would not even be talking about him.

You completely ignored everything I just said. He averaged 19 touches because of he was played out of position. All I'm saying is that there is a bit of upside to him with an improved role for cheap

 

[Yoda_]

Pick 50 , he is a salary dump.

we have the healthiest salary cap in the comp bar possibly Hawforn

Shiel out is a positional move more than anything

 

[Premium]

You completely ignored everything I just said. He averaged 19 touches because of he was played out of position. All I'm saying is that there is a bit of upside to him with an improved role for cheap

He has been crap for the last 4 yrs and at 31 , Billings has more chance of improvement.

 

[snails13]

Essendon would clearly have to be getting something more out of the deal for it to make sense.

1 year of a contract would not be a huge burden on them. At the moment both sets of fans seem to think it's them that will end up with pick 13.

I think for Essendon to be bumping that offer up so far for Gresham they would have to expect we pay overs for Shiel.

Maybe we end up with 13 and find an early 2nd to give them for Shiel. I'm not sure, but there must be something else involved for it to make sense for both clubs.

Tom Morris saying Saints likely to use the Gresham FA pick to get Henry,so I think that probably means an end of 1st round pick

 

[OxSaint]

I don’t see the downside in taking on Sheil as a salary dump for next year if we have the room.

Would much prefer seeing sheil out there than Clark and/or Ross. Offers more power than any other “full time” mid and improves the mix. I don’t think we can keep rolling out Seb, Steele and Crouch (all one paced, average by foot and vanilla) as our most represented mids (all one paced, average by foot and vanilla) with a splash of Gresh’s lunacy coming out of stoppage to spice things up.

Bring in Henry, Dow and Sheil whilst keeping two top 25 picks is a good outcome and improves our midfield in both grades. All our project players at Sandy need a performing midfield to develop which they haven’t had for years. Seriously though, how is an Isaac Keeler meant to improve at Sandy when they get pumped out of the middle most weeks.

 

[Premium]

we have the healthiest salary cap in the comp bar possibly Hawforn

Shiel out is a positional move more than anything

We would not even be looking at the spud if he wasn't helping to get us another round 1 pick.
And I have quite a few Bomber mates and they have all said he has been one of there worst big name trades they have ever had - just a expensive spud

 

[St Neil]

Tom Morris saying Saints likely to use the Gresham FA pick to get Henry,so I think that probably means an end of 1st round pick

We won’t be using it if it is a first round compensation (pick 13). Henry isn’t worth pick 13.

 

[Premium]

I don’t see the downside in taking on Sheil as a salary dump for next year if we have the room.

Would much prefer seeing sheil out there than Clark and/or Ross. Offers more power than any other “full time” mid and improves the mix. I don’t think we can keep rolling out Seb, Steele and Crouch (all one paced, average by foot and vanilla) as our most represented mids (all one paced, average by foot and vanilla) with a splash of Gresh’s lunacy coming out of stoppage to spice things up.

Bring in Henry, Dow and Sheil whilst keeping two top 25 picks is a good outcome and improves our midfield in both grades. All our project players at Sandy need a performing midfield to develop which they haven’t had for years. Seriously though, how is an Isaac Keeler meant to improve at Sandy when they get pumped out of the middle most weeks.

Whoever we bring into the club we hope they can help us get better but really Shiel has been poor for 4 seasons and expecting to turn it around at 31 with injury issues is very hopeful.

Of course I hope your right , but he will need to turn the clock back 5 or 6 yrs at least.

 

[Yoda_]

We would not even be looking at the spud if he wasn't helping to get us another round 1 pick.
And I have quite a few Bomber mates and they have all said he has been one of there worst big name trades they have ever had - just a expensive spud

you have dumb mates then. no world beater but has played some solid football. as has been discussed ad nausea on the main board, the hypothetical is to get Shiel to St.Kilda, Gresham out of Moorabin and a pick to help appease in the Henry trade.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

If we don't get him for our pick 50 we don't want him - he is a salary dump - we would not even be looking at him otherwise , he has been useless at the Bombers another of there trades were they paid over the top to get him and he performed like a spud and at 30 he is not going to get any better.
He will only be on the list to get us another first round pick which could help get us higher into the top 10.

We need the Suns pick 4

The dopers should be throwing us their 2nd rounder to take Shiel’s contract on for a year.

Idiots


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[Plugger35]

We won’t be using it if it is a first round compensation (pick 13). Henry isn’t worth pick 13.

Peter Bell will probably think he is worth more than that, pick 13 plus a player, we better not bend over for him like we did in the Hill trade.

Henry would be a nice player to have but he isn't a must have player that you should pay overs for.