Training 2024 Pre-Season discussion

[catswhiskers]

I am looking for some innovation this off season. I would like to see Neale at FF, Hawkins at CHF and Cameron played on a wing. Jeremy loves getting up the ground and is a good runner with v good disposal and would be a very difficult match up for opposition. It has been done before with Richardson and Reiwold recon it's worth a try and gets games into Neale.

Maybe Neale at CHF. Pace (for a big man) is one of his strengths IMO.

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[longtimecat]

Maybe Neale at CHF. Pace (for a big man) is one of his strengths IMO.

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I would leave that for Hawkins to decide, allowing Tom to coach Neale and other forwards on field.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

I am looking for some innovation this off season. I would like to see Neale at FF, Hawkins at CHF and Cameron played on a wing. Jeremy loves getting up the ground and is a good runner with v good disposal and would be a very difficult match up for opposition. It has been done before with Richardson and Reiwold recon it's worth a try and gets games into Neale.

I reckon that forward set up works; Neale, Hawk, Cameron. Just about how we build around it. Neale is a genuine athlete, I think he can get further up the ground.

Rohan likely forced out in that set up, and Henry would need to improve at ground level and defensively.

 

[D BRIDGE]

Odd summation.

Dangerfield had more coaches and Brownlow votes than Pendlebury and Sidebottom combined in 2023, despite his obvious injury issues in the second half of the season.

Those two wouldn't have saved our trainwreck season this year, much like Dangerfield would've excelled in their dominant side. But on sheer individual output he did outdo them this year anyway.

This is correct.

In the end Danger was down only due to being injured or playing not near 100%.

Danger was still just about our best player early in the year and was flying... but injury derailed him and us as a team.

If Pendles/Sidebottom get hurt... I'm sure they'll also drop off plenty.

 

[Vdubs]

This is correct.

In the end Danger was down only due to being injured or playing not near 100%.

Danger was still just about our best player early in the year and was flying... but injury derailed him and us as a team.

If Pendles/Sidebottom get hurt... I'm sure they'll also drop off plenty.

Nevertheless, and those reasons are spot on, but injuries and lack of end season form cost him and us.
Why expect 24 to be better for Danger?
He has been managed and injured in 22, injured in 23, and n ow another year older.
We should not expect a whole season of games from him, but it would be great if he was up near the end of the season if we are near contention.
His style of play is brilliant when on, but very tough on the body and near impossible to maintain.

 

[D BRIDGE]

Maybe Neale at CHF. Pace (for a big man) is one of his strengths IMO.

If he has a big preseason, you would think this would be a possibility.

I'm not a massive wrap for him... unsure if he is really a true CHF.

But we need to unleash him eventually to get top-level experience.

Hawk FF, Neale CHF and Jez just running around all over the place creating chaos would at least be very interesting for us all to see at the start of the year.

I'm kind of expecting Mannagh to play and be maybe a forward/wing/mid type (not sure) but with Mannagh and Neale in the side that will mean a couple will need to make way for them.

As much as I like Dempsey as a future prospect he might need to wait a bit longer before really breaking in... and that's assuming he continues his improvement in the VFL.

It will be interesting... very interesting... Do we just roll out the same older guys from the get-go or do some of these new faces push into the starting side from R1.

My expectations are low... We have our flags... I think the flag-winning era is over and was done when Selwood hung them up, so I will just try to enjoy hopefully seeing the changing of the guard.

Can't wait for the season... Fingers crossed we have a fit and hungry list ready to go.

 

[Oisin_the_Goat]

I wonder if MC will choose much less of the old brigade than we expect this year. The change in attitude might mean regularly playing the new recruits. Proper rebuild , not so staggered.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I wonder if MC will choose much less of the old brigade than we expect this year. The change in attitude might mean regularly playing the new recruits. Proper rebuild , not so staggered.

Make no mistake we're 100% aiming to win the premiership this year. That doesn't mean we play old guys if they're passed by younger players. But we're not going to be pumping games into youngsters on mass if they're not in or very close to our best 22.

If half way through the year we look completely cooked our priorities might change but initially our aim will be simply to win games of footy.

 

[cats_09]

Make no mistake we're 100% aiming to win the premiership this year. That doesn't mean we play old guys if they're passed by younger players. But we're not going to be pumping games into youngsters on mass if they're not in or very close to our best 22.

If half way through the year we look completely cooked our priorities might change but initially our aim will be simply to win games of footy.

I feel that the intention at the start of the season will be very much like it was ahead of 2022 - but as we saw that year, senior players lost their spots and youngsters cemented theirs

Being in the best 22/23 for round 1 doesn't mean you'll still be in that same position at round 10 let alone round 23

 

[Kobe Gryant]

I wonder if MC will choose much less of the old brigade than we expect this year. The change in attitude might mean regularly playing the new recruits. Proper rebuild , not so staggered.

I think you'll find that the staggered approach is actually what works.

Introducing 2-5 youngsters each year, with the goal of turning over a list in a 3-5 year window, which is basically what we've done from 2010-now.

Other clubs like Sydney, Collingwood, and until recently, West Coast, have done similar, but nobody's done it quite as well as we have, which is a complement to the great work of those in charge.

The 'traditional rebuild' isn't something you enter voluntarily. It plummets your club culture, respect around the league, revenue, and most importantly in this case: player development.

The only clubs who have really done it in recent times are Norf, Carlton, Melbourne, and now West Coast & Hawthorn.

None of them did it voluntarily. For different reasons, they grossly misjudged the talent on their list, and cost themselves draft capital before sinking to the bottom.

Other factors of course, Covid/Injury for the Eagles, mismanagement at board level for Melbourne/Carlton, and Clarko not wanting to coach young players at Hawthorn...but they all share one thing in common, they didn't end up there on purpose.

In an era without strict guidelines for priority picks, there is really no benefit to playing a large contingent of youth who aren't yet ready, or entering the 'traditional rebuild' and sacrificing older players to do so.

It's not like 2004 anymore, where we could do that, and then end up with picks 1 & 2 at the draft, as well as some later concessions to finish the whole thing in 18 months.

They've changed the rules to stop clubs from doing that, so you're better off just playing your best side, keeping the club attractive to FA targets, taking your picks to the draft and playing the kids who are ready to contribute to replenish your list.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I feel that the intention at the start of the season will be very much like it was ahead of 2022 - but as we saw that year, senior players lost their spots and youngsters cemented theirs

Being in the best 22/23 for round 1 doesn't mean you'll still be in that same position at round 10 let alone round 23

The changes in 2022 are a bit overblown. Mostly it was just injuries that allowed guys like Dahlhaus and Higgins to get games. I'm not sure they were ever in our best 22.

Round 1 we were missing Bews, Duncan, Menegola, Miers, O'Connor and Rohan from our best 25 come finals. We played Higgins, Dahlhaus, Ratugolea and Evans in round 1.

So it wasn't like Higgins and Dahlhaus were clearly best 22 at the start of the year and then were dropped to give the kids a chance. They just got squeezed out with better availability. The youngsters were already in the team from round 1.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

If he has a big preseason, you would think this would be a possibility.

I'm not a massive wrap for him... unsure if he is really a true CHF.

But we need to unleash him eventually to get top-level experience.

Hawk FF, Neale CHF and Jez just running around all over the place creating chaos would at least be very interesting for us all to see at the start of the year.

I'm kind of expecting Mannagh to play and be maybe a forward/wing/mid type (not sure) but with Mannagh and Neale in the side that will mean a couple will need to make way for them.

As much as I like Dempsey as a future prospect he might need to wait a bit longer before really breaking in... and that's assuming he continues his improvement in the VFL.

It will be interesting... very interesting... Do we just roll out the same older guys from the get-go or do some of these new faces push into the starting side from R1.

My expectations are low... We have our flags... I think the flag-winning era is over and was done when Selwood hung them up, so I will just try to enjoy hopefully seeing the changing of the guard.

Can't wait for the season... Fingers crossed we have a fit and hungry list ready to go.

Very low expectations for Neale... whenever there is a key forward who has some pace and height everyone seems to get overly excited... the reality is it takes much more than this for them to make it.

does he have the 1v1 body work against the AFL key defenders to out mark them?? does he have the timing and leading pattersn to get on the end of enough opportunities inside fifty and create his own space??

If you watch hawkins... he is a master of this craft... his 1v1 body work took him probably 5-6 years for it to finally click, but his ability to time his nudge and move his defender out of position is elite. He doesnt jostle with them too early and allow them to reposition themselves, he times his tussle so that he is shoving them off right before he stretches out for the mark.. where as early in his career he used to shove and wrestle way too early on and his defenders often got themselves back into the contest for a fist.

You also see his leading patterns... he often does 4..5...6 brief dummy leads before he opens up a pocket of space for his main lead to take place into space him and the team created...

alot of key forwards just see ball and run in a straight line at ball and if this is all you can do at the top level as a key forward... you are going to struggle badly for opportunities. You need to really work hard on your patterns body work and craft.

Does Neale have the goods?? not sure

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I feel that the intention at the start of the season will be very much like it was ahead of 2022 - but as we saw that year, senior players lost their spots and youngsters cemented theirs

Being in the best 22/23 for round 1 doesn't mean you'll still be in that same position at round 10 let alone round 23

fivei really hope are B22 next season are Conway, Knevitt, Clark, Mullin, and Mannagh

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Very low expectations for Neale... whenever there is a key forward who has some pace and height everyone seems to get overly excited... the reality is it takes much more than this for them to make it.

does he have the 1v1 body work against the AFL key defenders to out mark them?? does he have the timing and leading pattersn to get on the end of enough opportunities inside fifty and create his own space??

If you watch hawkins... he is a master of this craft... his 1v1 body work took him probably 5-6 years for it to finally click, but his ability to time his nudge and move his defender out of position is elite. He doesnt jostle with them too early and allow them to reposition themselves, he times his tussle so that he is shoving them off right before he stretches out for the mark.. where as early in his career he used to shove and wrestle way too early on and his defenders often got themselves back into the contest for a fist.

You also see his leading patterns... he often does 4..5...6 brief dummy leads before he opens up a pocket of space for his main lead to take place into space him and the team created...

alot of key forwards just see ball and run in a straight line at ball and if this is all you can do at the top level as a key forward... you are going to struggle badly for opportunities. You need to really work hard on your patterns body work and craft.

Does Neale have the goods?? not sure

You kind of said it yourself though. Hawkins took 5-6 years and he was tracking elite as a junior. Neale is in year 4 and started out as a ruckman.

We need to give him 50 senior games as a forward before we know. That's what we gave Sav before sending him to defence

 

[Footy Smarts]

You kind of said it yourself though. Hawkins took 5-6 years and he was tracking elite as a junior. Neale is in year 4 and started out as a ruckman.

We need to give him 50 senior games as a forward before we know. That's what we gave Sav before sending him to defence

You can't gift a guy 50 games in the hope he makes it.

Sav got games before he was really ready because we didn't have a second key forward. He still competed and showed a bit. When his form dropped (2020) he was out of the team. Hawkins was still doing a job for us in 2009-10 when he was in our best 22 but not the superstar he became. Neale needs to play a role and justify his selection to make the team.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

You can't gift a guy 50 games in the hope he makes it.

Sav got games before he was really ready because we didn't have a second key forward. He still competed and showed a bit. When his form dropped (2020) he was out of the team. Hawkins was still doing a job for us in 2009-10 when he was in our best 22 but not the superstar he became. Neale needs to play a role and justify his selection to make the team.

I think you kind of have to with key forwards though. I think there are limits to how much you can learn at vfl level.

Plus, there's probably 12-20 Hawkins games left ever. Much like Sav, Neale is about to be the second key forward in a side with one key forward.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I think you kind of have to with key forwards though. I think there are limits to how much you can learn at vfl level.

Plus, there's probably 12-20 Hawkins games left ever. Much like Sav, Neale is about to be the second key forward in a side with one key forward.

Sav was genuinely in our best 22 in 2018-19, etc. He wasn't gifted games in that sense. If Neale's in that situation it's not gifting games either.

But like with Sav if Neale is in our best 22 but still an obvious weakness we will target a gun key forward via trade or FA rather than just keep pumping games into him in the hope he makes it. With Cameron aging as well I'd expect we target a gun key forward even if Neale has a massive breakout year.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You kind of said it yourself though. Hawkins took 5-6 years and he was tracking elite as a junior. Neale is in year 4 and started out as a ruckman.

We need to give him 50 senior games as a forward before we know. That's what we gave Sav before sending him to defence

Hawkins already had kicked 32 goals in his third season and was a regular.

Neale is going into his fourth AFL season and has only played 4 games?? He needs to really come on and cement himself and kick his 30-40 goals if he wants to be a regular b22.

If he kicks 20 goals and plays every game as a forward at age 22, I wouldn’t be too happy with that output.

 

[Tandy]

Big year for Shannon Neale. Personally not a fan and from what I've seen don't rate but hope I'm proven wrong. 5 games over 2 yrs for 1 goal. Going to have to kick a few more goals.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I think you kind of have to with key forwards though. I think there are limits to how much you can learn at vfl level.

Plus, there's probably 12-20 Hawkins games left ever. Much like Sav, Neale is about to be the second key forward in a side with one key forward.

A general rule of thumb with elite key forwards ( I call it the ablett and Hawkins rule) is by their third season they should be regular B22 contributing at AFL level holding their spot.

Both Hawkins and ablett in their third seasons kicked exactly 32 goals and held their own for the season. I personally use it as a rule for elite young key forwards

 

[The rabbi]

A general rule of thumb with elite key forwards ( I call it the ablett and Hawkins rule) is by their third season they should be regular B22 contributing at AFL level holding their spot.

Both Hawkins and ablett in their third seasons kicked exactly 32 goals and held their own for the season. I personally use it as a rule for elite young key forwards

That is a big ask for a 21 y.o. kid like Neal when the club already has the best, or near the best, 2 KPF's in the game at the moment. Maybe Hawkins would not have got his chance in '09 if Nathan Ablett was available to pair with Cam Mooney as the two KPF's.

 

[Warhorse]

A general rule of thumb with elite key forwards ( I call it the ablett and Hawkins rule) is by their third season they should be regular B22 contributing at AFL level holding their spot.

Both Hawkins and ablett in their third seasons kicked exactly 32 goals and held their own for the season. I personally use it as a rule for elite young key forwards

Agree its a good rule of thumb. The first two years it's more about moments at AFL level that show talent. By year 3 contributing.

Ugle-Hagan just kicked 35 in his 3rd season. Curnow 34 goals in 3rd season.

 

[gogeelongcats]

Difficult for Neale when we have the existing structure. ie 2 key forwards.
When he is played we do not play through him.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Hawkins already had kicked 32 goals in his third season and was a regular.

Neale is going into his fourth AFL season and has only played 4 games?? He needs to really come on and cement himself and kick his 30-40 goals if he wants to be a regular b22.

If he kicks 20 goals and plays every game as a forward at age 22, I wouldn’t be too happy with that output.

I'm not saying he's going to be Hawkins or even really any good. I'm just saying we haven't tested him because he has been competing against Hawkins and Cameron for a spot his whole career. There's every possibility we don't give him 50 games and just never find out of he's any good.

 

[Mr Meow]

I'm not saying he's going to be Hawkins or even really any good. I'm just saying we haven't tested him because he has been competing against Hawkins and Cameron for a spot his whole career. There's every possibility we don't give him 50 games and just never find out of he's any good.

And even our third tall target has been Rohan, with elite pace and pressure, handy around goals etc. In 2007 it was Mooney and then already spots for young Ablett and Hawkins were available.

I reckon if we hadn't recruited O.Henry, then Neale would've played some of the games Rohan missed. Given Henry is better in the air than on the ground, I don't think that worked in Neale's favour either.