Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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Kicked 33 goals and had 20 goal assists whilst averaged 22 touches per game … thanks for asking.
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Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
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Kicked 33 goals and had 20 goal assists whilst averaged 22 touches per game … thanks for asking.
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10 of his Brownlow votes came against bottom dwellers.
In fact, 11 of the 33 goals were kicked against the eventual finalists which is fairly poor.
When Richmond lost to Gold Coast in round 17 they had just 5 wins, so the last 6 games became dead rubbers much like the last 2 games this season.
In those dead rubbers young Martin kicked a remarkable 9 goals and 9 goal assists. So it seems like this season was a tribute to that one.
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As expected from one of the GOAT.
Yeah, like there is a big query over Dustin Martin's ability to play well against the best teams.
Were you aware of the fact that liking every Richmond supporters responses to my posts lets me know that you read everything I post? So the ignore function isn't really doing anything except making it look like you're scared to address the points I make. Which is quite amusing. Cat got your tongue?Yeah, like there is a big query over Dustin Martin's ability to play well against the best teams.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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Yeah, like there is a big query over Dustin Martin's ability to play well against the best teams.
It’s amusing … a lot of the early portions of this thread:
“Despite his unrivalled finals excellence against the best, Martin hasn’t performed well enough and consistently enough in meaningless home and away games, so can’t really be considered as the GOAT”
more recent portions of this thread :
“Martin has performed to an elite level and secured Brownlow votes too regularly in meaningless H&A games to be considered as the GOAT”.
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The key word is "meaningless". There are H&A games where your side is fighting for something of value, and there are dead rubbers.
Round 5 vs Sydney and round 7 vs Gold Coast were two huge games to steady Richmond early in the season - both against very beatable opponents and at neutral venues.
Martin: 36 disposals, 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 coaches votes. Richmond lose both and now have 1 win from the first 7 games - a position almost no side has recovered from.
Round 23 vs NM and round 24 vs PA arrive when it is mathematically impossible for Richmond to play finals and therefore the only thing to play for is draft picks.
Martin: 64 disposals, 4 goals, 2 assists, 17 coaches votes. Martin secures 13th instead of 14th for Richmond.
If Martin brings those performances to round 5 and 7 perhaps he inspires his team mates and lifts them to 2 crucial victories. 12 wins, 1 draw and only Sydney's dodgy poster stops them playing finals (or, from having something to play for earlier, they nab an extra win and do storm into finals).
It is hilarious to watch the savage in-fighting in the no vote camp as they find amazingly creative ways to contradict each other.
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finally flushes??
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It is hilarious to watch the savage in-fighting in the no vote camp as they find amazingly creative ways to contradict each other.
Not as hilarious as watching you try and argue that a great but not God-level player is better than anyone else in 127 years of Australian Football based basically on 160 minutes of play.
Your post would be astute if only it was accurate.
1. I have never said that Dustin Martin is the GOAT, simply tried to make sure his case was put.
2. How do you reduce the following to 160 minutes: best season any player has played with record Brownlow and Coaches votes and season topping player rating + Ayres and Smith Medals + incredible second season + dominating 3 whole finals series with BOG or near BOG performances leading to flag dynasty + BOG in just about every second home and away match where Richmond HAD to win to secure a top 4 position in their 3 x flag years + top 10 all time Brownlow votes + so so much more.
You have embarrassed yourself in the act of trying to embarrass me. Fadge like post from you PB, you're better than that, most of the time.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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So GAJ at GC played probably 50x meaningless games. Good to know.
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Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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It’s contradiction city in here ….
Pendlebury wins a flag having played a great last quarter in the GF. He gets 2 x coaches votes across the entire final series…..
H&A:
Brownlow votes: Martin 8. Pendles. 6
Coaches votes: Martin 47. Pendles 26
B&F: Martin 2nd. Pendles. 5th
AA squad?: Martin yes. Pendles. No
So they spend thousands of pages telling us not to overrate Martin’s finals exploits, but now Pendles plays 1 x great finals quarter and wins a flag they’ve changed their tune.
Can’t have it both ways. Martin either extends his gap over Pendles thanks to his superior H&A season in 2023 as we can’t place too much weight on a single quarter …., or Martin extends his gap thanks to a greater appreciation of his 72 x coaches votes in 3 x flag campaigns including 28 x votes in 3 x Grand Finals. If one quarter and 2 x coaches votes gets everyone giddy, I can only imagine what 3 x Norm Smiths and 3 x GA awards does for a players standing?
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So you're suggesting that like Martin 2023, Ablett was weaker while Gold Coast racked up early season losses and came good when their season was over?
Gold Coast's season was over:
-Round 16 2011
-Round 11 2012
-Round 18 2013
-After his season ended, round 15 2014
-Round 15 2015 (he barely played anyway)
-Round 14 2016
-Round 16 2017
So just over 30 dead rubbers at the GC. There's no indication at all that he performed significantly better when any of Gold Coast's seasons were reduced to dead rubbers. Remaining one of the Brownlow favourites over the first half of every season, in a terrible side, kind of speaks to that fact.
They had a 32% win rate when he played and 11% when he didn't. So I don't think him not pulling his weight was a causative factor for losses. You can argue different for Martin and the first half of Richmond's 2023.
Not every single thing is about tallies. He had one quiet game and two very good ones. In games that close, that is legacy-strengthening.
Without Pendlebury they lose the prelim. Without Pendlebury they lose the grand final. He was a difference maker - especially late in games - , moreso than Martin in the 2019 grand final even if the latters stats/coaches votes etc were a level beyond. Martin brought it home with a wet sail, but only once Richmond's season was already on life support and then lifted another gear when they were officially declared dead.
Top 5 in a BnF side is a lot more valuable than 2nd in a fairly disastrous Richmond season.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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When we are debating Martin and dead rubbers we’ve really jumped the shark given his performances in finals.
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For 3 out of his 8 finals series, sure. This season his "finals" were keeping Richmond's season alive first half of the year when they were in trouble. Not cleaning up when things were already done.
Dangerfield was in the same position after the 0-3 start and was easily our best player for the 5 wins that followed until a hammy claimed him.
Martin was a big time player. But he wasn't early on and he hasn't been since 2020.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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In the last 10 x H&A games of 2017 Richmond needed 8 x wins to make top-4. In these 8 x wins Martin got:
Brownlow votes: 19 of a possible 24 (6 x BOG’s)
Coaches votes: 69 of a possible 80
*including finals he got 94 of a possible 110 coaches votes in their last 11 wins.
In 2019 Richmond had to win their last 8-games in a row to make top-4:
Brownlow votes: 15 of 24 (5 x BOG’s)
Coaches votes: 41 of 80
*including finals he got 60 of a possible 110 x coaches votes in their last 11 wins in a row for the flag.
In 2020 Richmond had to win 8 of their last 9 games to make top-4:
Brownlow votes: 11 of 24 (3 x BOG’s)
Coaches votes: 31 of 80
*including finals he got 59 of a possible 110 coaches votes in their last 11 x wins on the way to the flag.
So if we talk about the Pies not winning the flag without Pendles I agree (they don’t win without DeGoey, Daicos, Crisp, Sidey etc… either).
But given it’s hard to win a flag from outside the top-4, with Richmond’s flag hopes on the line to achieve top-4 and subsequent flags, in the wins required to secure top-4:
Brownlow : 45 votes from 24 games with 14 x BOG’s. Inc losses it was 45 votes from 27 games.
Coaches votes: 141 from 240 possible votes in H&A wins to secure top-4. Including losses in those runs home it was 141 from 270 possible votes.
Coaches votes across 33 x wins including finals: 213 of a possible 330 coaches votes in 33 wins.
So kudos for Pendles and a great last quarter in the GF they don’t win the flag without.
And kudos to Martin and a great 33 x games across 3 x seasons they don’t make top-4 and won’t win any flags without.
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So you've done a big run down of the 3 seasons I already acknowledged. He was big time for those 3 of course. 3 seasons is still a very respectable amount of time to have good finals in.
Richmond's season was on the line earlier the past 3 seasons and I guess he hasn't had it in him. Maybe next year. The champs do deserve a good send off. It'd be weird if his last big time performance came in COVID 2020.
What is a shame is that his great form arrived so late in 2023. If it started like that out of the gate I reckon Richmond could've made finals and he'd have a chance to redeem the 2022 EF letdown.
PowerfulPies2023
Club Legend
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Legend. Can't dispute what he's done for the Game.
No one's had more of an influence on a game than Dusty since Carey. And unlike Carey Dusty did it where it truly mattered not once but 3 times. A living legend.
No one's had more of an influence on a game than Dusty since Carey. And unlike Carey Dusty did it where it truly mattered not once but 3 times. A living legend.
Sounds like a little bit more than PhatBoy 's "160 minutes of play" that he reckons our Dusty argument rests on Noid. Sounds more like about 35 games of footy across 3 separate seasons where Dusty just decided Richmond were winning the flag and the AFL couldn't find anyone good enough to stop him. Seems like just about the best type of leadership you can get to me.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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He’s dominated 3 x finals series culminating in 3 x flags. Give me your list of players to dominate a finals series that results in a flag 2+ times in the AFL era? Not 3 times, just twice. To quality I’d suggest 2 or more BOG’s or close to it in a finals series, plus Norm Smith votes in the biggest game of all.
Once we review the list we can review your expectations for Martin to do it a 4th time.
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Yep so the 3 seasons I acknowledged and do in basically every post. It was a bloody great few years. Of a 15 odd year career, having 3 great finals series is still really good, no matter the rest.
There is a theory that once Richmond weren't a legitimate premiership contender he didn't have the same motivation. How is he meant to know that round 7 Vs Gold Coast is a crucial match?
Hopefully next year he does time it better though as they need his best form much sooner. I thought the same in 2021, 2022 and 2023 leading in as well. Otherwise there just aren't going to be finals to give us another big time performance.
