Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Sttew]

11 best on grounds in 13 finals. What-more- do-you-want?

Are we talking about GOAT or best finals player? You seem very confused.

On every metric, except NS’s, Dusty is not close to being GOAT. one of the great finals players, yes, but...

 

[blaisee]

View attachment 2014749

 

[blaisee]

no other player in history has ever single handedly cost another team 3 flags as per the view of the opposing clubs president

That’s why he is the goat

One of one a glitch in the matrix

 

[blaisee]

No you can't.
This is the problem with supporters like yourself, you don't take into account the preparation the opposing team placed on certain individuals. As good as what McLeod was, you weren't going out your way to stop him as in being the difference in a game.
Martin is the same. Tremendous players but no opposition would be fretting the entire week worrying about them.

But players like Ablett Sr or Carey for example, teams knew they had to have a plan A and B in place because they were that much better.

Also, you bring up Brereton, Sticks Kernahan was a better finals performer and certainly a better finals player than Dustin Martin.

Why would you waste your time writing such genuine garbage that no one believes , not even you ?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

KB had a better finals record.

21.7 disposals a game (in a low disposal era), going at 2.3 goals over a whopping 27 finals spread over a 16 year span.

Strong finals as a youngster, in his prime and as a grizzled veteran.

KB's finals catalogue was more comprehensive than Martin's.

Martin as the best GF player of all time is fair enough, or "best 4 year finals stretch". But he had no good finals aged 18-25 or in his 30s.

Omg how did this come up again

Decent player for FOUR YEARS, that's it

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[joe444]

no other player in history has ever single handedly cost another team 3 flags as per the view of the opposing clubs president

That’s why he is the goat

One of one a glitch in the matrix

In the article he says the "three premierships" were ones Geelong "came pretty close to" except for 2020 where Dusty was too good. In other words "Aside" from the "Dusty" Grand Final, Geelong "came close" to the premierships in 2008, 2013 and 2019 "which goes to prove you take your chances when you can."

No wonder the image is so selectively cropped.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

no other player in history has ever single handedly cost another team 3 flags as per the view of the opposing clubs president

That’s why he is the goat

One of one a glitch in the matrix

He is not fit to tie the shoelaces of the true GOAT Nick Daicos

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[blaisee]

In the article he says the "three premierships" were ones Geelong "came pretty close to" except for 2020 where Dusty was too good. In other words "Aside" from the "Dusty" Grand Final, Geelong "came close" to the premierships in 2008, 2013 and 2019 "which goes to prove you take your chances when you can."

No wonder the image is so selectively

I feel sorry for you.

You are delusional , if the president has accepted reality, why cant you, why do you make up things

The heading of the article is the quote from the article

"Dusty aside we could of had 3 flags"

The following are quotes from the article , not a revisionist history lesson like you,


“We have been in the finals nine of 10 years, we have had six top-four finishes and Dustin Martin aside, we could have been pretty close to three premierships.”

That is the quote from the president.

What you have written is just a direct misrepresentation of what he said, how embarrassing for you.

What he said was " Dustin Martin aside, we could have been pretty close to three premierships"

That is a fact, and that is why he is the goat, and that is why all you Geelong fans are triggered and it make me laugh, every day

Are you that insecure, that you need to try such a pathetic, easily disproven lie?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

KB had a better finals record.

21.7 disposals a game (in a low disposal era), going at 2.3 goals over a whopping 27 finals spread over a 16 year span.

Strong finals as a youngster, in his prime and as a grizzled veteran.

KB's finals catalogue was more comprehensive than Martin's.

Martin as the best GF player of all time is fair enough, or "best 4 year finals stretch". But he had no good finals aged 18-25 or in his 30s.

Martin was best on ground in 11 of 13 finals no one has done that before.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

No you can't.
This is the problem with supporters like yourself, you don't take into account the preparation the opposing team placed on certain individuals. As good as what McLeod was, you weren't going out your way to stop him as in being the difference in a game.
Martin is the same. Tremendous players but no opposition would be fretting the entire week worrying about them.

But players like Ablett Sr or Carey for example, teams knew they had to have a plan A and B in place because they were that much better.

Also, you bring up Brereton, Sticks Kernahan was a better finals performer and certainly a better finals player than Dustin Martin.

That is ridiculous

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Are we talking about GOAT or best finals player? You seem very confused.

On every metric, except NS’s, Dusty is not close to being GOAT. one of the great finals players, yes, but...

Robbo said that the measure of greatness is how you play in finals and Dustin is the greatest finals player, Robbo said therefore Dustin is the Goat.

 

[Sttew]

Robbo said that the measure of greatness is how you play in finals and Dustin is the greatest finals player, Robbo said therefore Dustin is the Goat.

LOL. Robbo also called Jeremy Cameron the best player in the competition earlier this season

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

LOL. Robbo also called Jeremy Cameron the best player in the competition earlier this season

He was drunk when he said that.

 

[Mr Meow]

Martin was best on ground in 11 of 13 finals no one has done that before.

11 finals?

Coaches said:

2017 QF
2017 PF
2018 QF
2019 QF
2019 GF
2020 SF
2020 PF
2020 GF

8 finals, which can be bumped up to 9 if you defer to the NS panel instead of coaches for 2017 (I think coaches have better footy brains than NS panels personally).

Still a glorious run, but I'm not sure where you get 11 from. And it's still only a 4 year run. KB's finals greatness extended to all time spans.

I take nobody's opinion on "greatest ever" anything seriously unless they can provide a top 5 or 10 and provide rationale for all of them. So go on, name number 2-10 for finals performers in VFL/AFL history and state your case for why they were there.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

No you can't.
This is the problem with supporters like yourself, you don't take into account the preparation the opposing team placed on certain individuals. As good as what McLeod was, you weren't going out your way to stop him as in being the difference in a game.
Martin is the same. Tremendous players but no opposition would be fretting the entire week worrying about them.

But players like Ablett Sr or Carey for example, teams knew they had to have a plan A and B in place because they were that much better.

Also, you bring up Brereton, Sticks Kernahan was a better finals performer and certainly a better finals player than Dustin Martin.

That is so insightful of you to realise that better players play worse in finals and worse players play better in finals. Players queueing up to prove to the world they can't play in finals in My Tilly's world.

 

[tigs2010]

Plus he had to work in a yeast factory before the game!

Is this a euphemism?

 

[sante]

Is it only Collingwood and Geelong fans who keep trying to bring Dusty down?

Could only be nuff nuffs from BigFooty

 

[JackOutback]

Greatest Finals player of all time.. no doubt

Not no doubt but clearly in the conversation. There’s the guy the award he won is named after, a few others have mentioned some other spectacular finals performers.

But that’s where this argument has gotten silly. His finals record may be the best of all time, his overall career is not, but there are some Richmond fans trying to conflate the two or argue that because players play for premierships, it supersedes everything.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Not no doubt but clearly in the conversation. There’s the guy the award he won is named after, a few others have mentioned some other spectacular finals performers.

But that’s where this argument has gotten silly. His finals record may be the best of all time, his overall career is not, but there are some Richmond fans trying to conflate the two or argue that because players play for premierships, it supersedes everything.

Nathan Buckley tonight: "best big game player." And clarified it..."that is in the whole history of the competition."

J Brown: "Vossy was a great big game player, but Dusty has got the accolades."

JOutback: "It is very debatable that a cloudless sky is blue in the daytime. It is in the conversation and is possibly blue but it is debatable."

Bucks and Browny didn't seem to think there was too much room for debate.

 

[YeoGabbaGabba]

Sad to say not real surprised by things like this being said.

We do seem to live in a time where we can’t celebrate anyone’s achievements without trying to diminish them and bring them down.

Real shame

 

[JackOutback]

Nathan Buckley tonight: "best big game player." And clarified it..."that is in the whole history of the competition."

J Brown: "Vossy was a great big game player, but Dusty has got the accolades."

JOutback: "It is very debatable that a cloudless sky is blue in the daytime. It is in the conversation and is possibly blue but it is debatable."

Bucks and Browny didn't seem to think there was too much room for debate.

Media commentators barely look past last week. Someone posted Gordon Coventry’s finals stats, they made Martin’s look almost pedestrian. Do you think Bucks saw his ‘big games’ to make that call? KB’s were phenomenal, the award itself is named for Gary Ayres. Everyone is looking for the next hyperbolic statement, Martin is the GOAT, no Daicos will be, no it’ll be Reid. Correct answer is it likely won’t be any of them if you were more interested in reality than headlines.

The only players in the last 50 years that have a claim to GOAT status is Matthews, Carey and both Abletts. Martin has a claim to greatest finals player with a few other contenders as well.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Media commentators barely look past last week. Someone posted Gordon Coventry’s finals stats, they made Martin’s look almost pedestrian. Do you think Bucks saw his ‘big games’ to make that call? KB’s were phenomenal, the award itself is named for Gary Ayres. Everyone is looking for the next hyperbolic statement, Martin is the GOAT, no Daicos will be, no it’ll be Reid. Correct answer is it likely won’t be any of them if you were more interested in reality than headlines.

The only players in the last 50 years that have a claim to GOAT status is Matthews, Carey and both Abletts. Martin has a claim to greatest finals player with a few other contenders as well.

Gordon Coventry? You mean the guy who played exclusively Full Forward in the only team to ever win 4 flags in succession? Who played in a high scoring era? Who was both preceded and followed by Collingwood Full Forwards who were at least his equal and probably better than him? The guy who when he kicked two thirds of the goals in a Grand Final actually only kicked 2 goals of 3 scored in the game?

Posting a specialist Full Forward's goal kicking stats who played in one of the highest scoring eras the game has seen does little to put Dustin Martin in the shade. Coventry won 1 x B & F. Zero Brownlow Medals. When I was a kid, of the people who were around to watch Coventry play, I never heard a single one of them say he was the greatest finals player,or even mention his finals deeds. In fact he averaged 4.25 goals per game in his career. In finals this dropped to 3.58.

In his Grand Finals G Coventry scored:

3 of 30 goals
4 of 18 goals
7 of 23 goals
2 of 18 goals
9 of 22 goals
2 of 3 goals
2 of 26 goals
0 of 19 goals
3 of 20 goals
3 of 12 goals


Overall 35 of 191 goals. Or 18% of the goals in those matches. Coventry scored 3.5 goals per Grand Final.

In all finals Coventry kicked 111 of 646 goals, 17% of the goals scored in these games.

Ron Todd who followed Coventry as the Collingwood FF scored 19% of all goals scored in his 11 finals and went at 5 per final.

Dick Lee who preceded Coventry scored 18% of all goals scored in his 22 finals.

So we can see Coventry had the 3rd highest goals as a percentage of all goals scored in finals played of Collingwood Full Forwards in his own era.

John Coleman kicked 24 of 125 goals scored in his 6 finals. Or 19% of all goals in these games.

Dusty in 3 Grand Finals kicked or assisted:

4 of 24 goals
6 of 20 goals
5 of 19 goals

15 of 63 goals. Or 24% of the goals scored in those games. Dusty scored himself 3.6 goals per whole Grand Final(2020 was only 80% game time.) If you count Dusty's goals and assists it is 5.4 per whole Grand Final.

Coventry is overall nowhere near Dusty's goal feats in Grand Finals, and the only way you can bridge that gap is to do what the deceptive Collingwood supporter did and just list his 2 or 3 most impressive ones out of 10 with no context. You don't want to be getting hook, line and sinkered by that nonsense.

You have to remember that Coventry amassed his Grand Final goal record sitting in a goal square competing against one opponent. Dusty amassed his playing mainly midfield, collecting about 25 disposals per Grand Final with a massive amount of those hotly contested, often with multiple opponents trying to stop him getting the ball. Coventry's stock in trade was the lead into space chest mark. See if you can locate any of those amongst Dusty's Grand Final goals.

Just a silly line of argument from you guys. You don't get gifted 3 BOG's from 3 Grand Finals with high midfield output + high goal output. You have to be genuinely too good for Grand Final opponents 3 times over. Which is precisely what Dusty was.

Gordon Coventry was not a better finals player than Dustin Martin, Dusty runs rings around him.

 

[TheUnicorn]

 

[GastevsBeard]

i reckon Leigh must read this thread - he has assured another 20+ pages & essentially invalidated the "only player I am comfortable being compared with" argument

 

[JackOutback]

Gordon Coventry? You mean the guy who played exclusively Full Forward in the only team to ever win 4 flags in succession? Who played in a high scoring era? Who was both preceded and followed by Collingwood Full Forwards who were at least his equal and probably better than him? The guy who when he kicked two thirds of the goals in a Grand Final actually only kicked 2 goals of 3 scored in the game?

Posting a specialist Full Forward's goal kicking stats who played in one of the highest scoring eras the game has seen does little to put Dustin Martin in the shade. Coventry won 1 x B & F. Zero Brownlow Medals. When I was a kid, of the people who were around to watch Coventry play, I never heard a single one of them say he was the greatest finals player,or even mention his finals deeds. In fact he averaged 4.25 goals per game in his career. In finals this dropped to 3.58.

In his Grand Finals G Coventry scored:

3 of 30 goals
4 of 18 goals
7 of 23 goals
2 of 18 goals
9 of 22 goals
2 of 3 goals
2 of 26 goals
0 of 19 goals
3 of 20 goals
3 of 12 goals


Overall 35 of 191 goals. Or 18% of the goals in those matches. Coventry scored 3.5 goals per Grand Final.

In all finals Coventry kicked 111 of 646 goals, 17% of the goals scored in these games.

Ron Todd who followed Coventry as the Collingwood FF scored 19% of all goals scored in his 11 finals and went at 5 per final.

Dick Lee who preceded Coventry scored 18% of all goals scored in his 22 finals.

So we can see Coventry had the 3rd highest goals as a percentage of all goals scored in finals played of Collingwood Full Forwards in his own era.

John Coleman kicked 24 of 125 goals scored in his 6 finals. Or 19% of all goals in these games.

Dusty in 3 Grand Finals kicked or assisted:

4 of 24 goals
6 of 20 goals
5 of 19 goals

15 of 63 goals. Or 24% of the goals scored in those games. Dusty scored himself 3.6 goals per whole Grand Final(2020 was only 80% game time.) If you count Dusty's goals and assists it is 5.4 per whole Grand Final.

Coventry is overall nowhere near Dusty's goal feats in Grand Finals, and the only way you can bridge that gap is to do what the deceptive Collingwood supporter did and just list his 2 or 3 most impressive ones out of 10 with no context. You don't want to be getting hook, line and sinkered by that nonsense.

You have to remember that Coventry amassed his Grand Final goal record sitting in a goal square competing against one opponent. Dusty amassed his playing mainly midfield, collecting about 25 disposals per Grand Final with a massive amount of those hotly contested, often with multiple opponents trying to stop him getting the ball. Coventry's stock in trade was the lead into space chest mark. See if you can locate any of those amongst Dusty's Grand Final goals.

Just a silly line of argument from you guys. You don't get gifted 3 BOG's from 3 Grand Finals with high midfield output + high goal output. You have to be genuinely too good for Grand Final opponents 3 times over. Which is precisely what Dusty was.

Gordon Coventry was not a better finals player than Dustin Martin, Dusty runs rings around him.

You're really going to play the 'scored his goals in a high scoring era' card? You? The guy who carries on about possessions in a high possession era or Brownlow votes in an era when Brownlow votes are more consolidated among a select group of midfielders than ever before? Priceless.