Review Good/Bad vs Brisbane, R9 2022

[Rags_118]

He’s playing well as a defender this year though, not sure it’s wise to change something that is working right now

Re Jones. I’m not convinced he’s competent as a defender, but I like it when he plays in small patches as an attacking running half back/outside receiver.

I wouldn’t mind him being tried as an outside/receiving midfielder, but not as an inside extractor and certainly not as a defensive/nullifying tagger.

I would much rather see Jones kicking into the forward line from a centre clearance than Laird or Keays.

 

[relapse]

He’s playing well as a defender this year though, not sure it’s wise to change something that is working right now

I wouldn't exactly say that he's playing well, I'd say he's doing enough to hold his position.

It's still blatantly obvious watching him that the defensive side of his game is not his natural strength.

This is a guy who was a top 10 draftee that was drafted as a midfielder who also possesses a burst of pace. We're doing ourselves a massive disservice if we don't at least see what he has to offer in the middle.

We have more than enough guys who can fill that back pocket role, but what we don't have is an outside mid that has a burst of pace. Jones could potentially be that player, but we'll never know if they don't give him a shot.

We've literally got nothing to lose by doing it.

 

[Golumless]

I wouldn't exactly say that he's playing well, I'd say he's doing enough to hold his position.

It's still blatantly obvious watching him that the defensive side of his game is not his natural strength.

This is a guy who was a top 10 draftee that was drafted as a midfielder who also possesses a burst of pace. We're doing ourselves a massive disservice if we don't at least see what he has to offer in the middle.

We have more than enough guys who can fill that back pocket role, but what we don't have is an outside mid that has a burst of pace. Jones could potentially be that player, but we'll never know if they don't give him a shot.

We've literally got nothing to lose by doing it.

We saw last year what he offered, and it culminated in Jones looking like a bust after a very rough 2020 campaign and start to 2021.

Giving another shot to Jones in the midfield can wait until next year. Let him get to 50-60 games, build his confidence up more by allowing him to continue to lock in a spot, and plan around it during next preseason. Considering how volatile Jones confidence has been, the gentler the transition, the better.

 

[Mutineer]

 

[robboaustralia]

Can't see this anywhere but saw this on Ch.7 news.

 

[Pugsley]

Can't see this anywhere but saw this on Ch.7 news. View attachment 1401817

It's about time we questioned them. Watch us get screwed over by them this week.

 

[Crow till I die]

It's about time we questioned them. Watch us get screwed over by them this week.

what makes that any different from what happens most weeks - literally what do we have to lose

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

It's about time we questioned them. Watch us get screwed over by them this week.

So we had nothing to lose...

 

[BunjiMac]

We saw last year what he offered, and it culminated in Jones looking like a bust after a very rough 2020 campaign and start to 2021.

Giving another shot to Jones in the midfield can wait until next year. Let him get to 50-60 games, build his confidence up more by allowing him to continue to lock in a spot, and plan around it during next preseason. Considering how volatile Jones confidence has been, the gentler the transition, the better.

If he's mentally that fragile, then forget it, he's never playing in the midfield.

If we have to baby him so that he's in just the right mood, then he's going to get absolutely destroyed in the heat of battle.

He needs to be thrown to the fire so that we can see whether he can build that resolve, to see whether he can fight back.

The midfield is who we are asking to fight back when the chips are down and everything is against you to turn the tide of the game.

You need to be mentally tough and resilient as well as having the physical attributes to play that position.

I still think Cook needs to be tried there sooner rather than later. Let him feel the heat of that battle and let's see if he has that fight.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

If he's mentally that fragile, then forget it, he's never playing in the midfield.

If we have to baby him so that he's in just the right mood, then he's going to get absolutely destroyed in the heat of battle.

He needs to be thrown to the fire so that we can see whether he can build that resolve, to see whether he can fight back.

The midfield is who we are asking to fight back when the chips are down and everything is against you to turn the tide of the game.

You need to be mentally tough and resilient as well as having the physical attributes to play that position.

I still think Cook needs to be tried there sooner rather than later. Let him feel the heat of that battle and let's see if he has that fight.

I think we should try Doedee in the middle. Can’t be worse than the bot average mids we’re going with and at least he has a point of difference with his marking.

 

[crowholder]

Finally got to see the game. I thought that Hately did good, although faded a bit in the last quarter. Rowe played well, and Dawson/Jones again. McAdam presented well. Fog and the Berg did not have great games, but nowhere near as bad as some suggested here. They did make a contest. Tex was unusually inaccurate. Rachelle has had his confidence dented a bit. The umpiring was not great, but not as bad as some of our other games, such as those against Carlton and the Dogs. This time we did not have Derwayne supporting the opposition, so it may have made it seem worse than it has been in the past. Hopefully we get a good go at it next week against the Saints, like we did against the Tigers.

 

[Mutineer]

what makes that any different from what happens most weeks - literally what do we have to lose

 

[Golumless]

If he's mentally that fragile, then forget it, he's never playing in the midfield.

If we have to baby him so that he's in just the right mood, then he's going to get absolutely destroyed in the heat of battle.

He needs to be thrown to the fire so that we can see whether he can build that resolve, to see whether he can fight back.

The midfield is who we are asking to fight back when the chips are down and everything is against you to turn the tide of the game.

You need to be mentally tough and resilient as well as having the physical attributes to play that position.

I still think Cook needs to be tried there sooner rather than later. Let him feel the heat of that battle and let's see if he has that fight.

Quite likely Jones isn't ever going to be a midfielder. That said, it's certainly not unheard of for a lad who is a confidence player to figure it out later in their career once they get properly established into a best 22 and properly adapt to the grind, I'm not particularly concerned about his in game toughness either. Just what's between his ears seeing we've already been stupid with him and expected too much too soon, and likely there are some scars there we'll have to deal with when we push in that direction (if we do). After all, the way we treated Jones at the start of 2020 was that he was almost expected to carry our rebuild as our great white hope.

You don't just throw kids into the fire and hope shit works out. That's just begging to be smacked down because it's hubris. Development is about timing. Take Cook for instance, the dumbest thing you could do right now is to throw him into the inside midfield, he's clearly not ready for it and doing so would inevitably wreck him as a prospect. This is a lad who came into the youth development pathways late, so let him build up his body, develop his game in a wing/half forward position and look at in one or two years down the line when he's in the 90-95 kg range and a solid contributor. Do that, and likelihood we have a star inside midfielder.

 

[CrowBloke]

I'm watching the game replay.
In the first minute, Berg's handball more than a metre behind an overlapping Laird is sheer inept comedy.
A few minutes later, there's that lovely pass by Rowe to Tex deep in the forward pocket. I was watching something last night. Tex made me think "Where have I seen that face before?".

This young fella's name is Sam, who mines for opal in Lightning Ridge with his older partner Pete Cooke:

Young Tex lookalike, yeah?

 

[jenny61_99]

While I quite like the attempt to use data to qualify the performance of players, and I understand that I have a hang up about this particular player, but I can’t quite get my head around the fact that Jones had an 11 possession, 2 tackle game which included 5 turnovers at 46% disposal efficiency… and somehow was rated on par with Cameron and significantly better than Coleman, Raynor, Rich and McCluggage.

Yes, he attacks the ball beautifully. Yes he runs hard and breaks lines… but he does very, very little with it. He is David Mackay 2.0. Certainly not the worst player but a whole lot of meh. Please let me be wrong, but I just don’t get it.

Do you understand the role he plays?

 

[jenny61_99]

Glad you are happy with poor coaching—poor drafting—poor record

Enjoy

Oh FFS, it’s a rebuild. I’m not sure you could show any less understanding of how things work.

 

[relapse]

We saw last year what he offered, and it culminated in Jones looking like a bust after a very rough 2020 campaign and start to 2021.

Giving another shot to Jones in the midfield can wait until next year. Let him get to 50-60 games, build his confidence up more by allowing him to continue to lock in a spot, and plan around it during next preseason. Considering how volatile Jones confidence has been, the gentler the transition, the better.

I'd argue that when he was playing in the middle Godden had him trying to play as a defensive mid which was a massive fail.

You could see it at the time he was lost because they weren't playing him to his strength.

I'm fine if the plan is to get his confidence up first, but if the long term plan is just to keep him in a back pocket then I think it's a massive mistake.

 

[AFC979810]

Oh FFS, it’s a rebuild. I’m not sure you could show any less understanding of how things work.

Yes. But we haven't really shown any improvement on last year IMO. I understand we gutted the list in 2020 and 2021 an improvement on 2020 (perfectly acceptable in my book), but we should have been looking to see some more improvement on last year.

We technically gained Dawson, Rachele, Matt Crouch and Milera and lost Seedsman, Kelly and Sloane from last years best 22.

Last year we were 3-6 with a percentage of 84.67%
This year we are 3-6 with a percentage of 80.54%

The concern for me is that we are a carbon copy of last year. There hasn't really been much growth.

Most concerning for me is what is happening with Schoenberg. His management has been very poor this year.

 

[Mutineer]

Yes. But we haven't really shown any improvement on last year IMO. I understand we gutted the list in 2020 and 2021 an improvement on 2020 (perfectly acceptable in my book), but we should have been looking to see some more improvement on last year.

We technically gained Dawson, Rachele, Matt Crouch and Milera and lost Seedsman, Kelly and Sloane from last years best 22.

Last year we were 3-6 with a percentage of 84.67%
This year we are 3-6 with a percentage of 80.54%

The concern for me is that we are a carbon copy of last year. There hasn't really been much growth.

Most concerning for me is what is happening with Schoenberg. His management has been very poor this year.

His management hasn't been poor..

His form has generally been poor.

And certainly nowhere near what we should be expecting from him now.

 

[BunjiMac]

Quite likely Jones isn't ever going to be a midfielder. That said, it's certainly not unheard of for a lad who is a confidence player to figure it out later in their career once they get properly established into a best 22 and properly adapt to the grind, I'm not particularly concerned about his in game toughness either. Just what's between his ears seeing we've already been stupid with him and expected too much too soon, and likely there are some scars there we'll have to deal with when we push in that direction (if we do). After all, the way we treated Jones at the start of 2020 was that he was almost expected to carry our rebuild as our great white hope.

You don't just throw kids into the fire and hope shit works out. That's just begging to be smacked down because it's hubris. Development is about timing. Take Cook for instance, the dumbest thing you could do right now is to throw him into the inside midfield, he's clearly not ready for it and doing so would inevitably wreck him as a prospect. This is a lad who came into the youth development pathways late, so let him build up his body, develop his game in a wing/half forward position and look at in one or two years down the line when he's in the 90-95 kg range and a solid contributor. Do that, and likelihood we have a star inside midfielder.

Horses for courses.

The problem with AFC is we think everyone is the same, we have to treat everyone equal and they have to all behave the same way, or they get ostracised.

I'm not saying there isn't merit to what you are saying, but i'm saying it depends on the player and i argue certain players are going to thrive when thrown to the fire and other players will have confidence issues for life if we baby them.

I think we are very poor as customising a development path that brings out the best in a player.

I think this takes real football nous and the ability read a football mind and se things in players that stats don't see.

 

[AFC979810]

His management hasn't been poor..

His form has generally been poor.

And certainly nowhere near what we should be expecting from him now.

His form has been poor. I was fine dropping him after rd 4.

But then 2 weeks in the SANFL, one game as sub, one game in AFL, dropped on a bye week.

Its hard to know from the outside the reason for his poor form (confidence, unfit, opposition studied up on him), but having him go SANFL, SUB, AFL, Week off isn't really gonna help him gain confidence or fitness.

 

[LeftyLuke]

His management hasn't been poor..

His form has generally been poor.

And certainly nowhere near what we should be expecting from him now.

The big improvement was Dawson but that has been balanced out somewhat by the loss of Seedsman. Rachele is a young kid in his first year so you can't expect a huge amount from him this year. Crouch was never going to improve us and if anything he makes us worse. I think Nicks is currently discovering his best 22 to invest in for the future. By the end of the year I expect him to be fairly settled on a group of 25 that he wants to invest games into moving forward. Players such as Cook, Thilthorpe, Gollant, Jones, Taylor, Berry, Parnell, Hamill, Hinge, Soligo, Pedlar, Hately?, Rachele, Newchurch, Strachan?, along with the more experienced Butts, Doedee, Laird, Keays, Smith, Walker, Dawson, McHenry?, ROB?.

The offseason is where we are going to get our improvement by trading, drafting and the young blokes getting a lot stronger and fitter. Trading in a decent KPD should have the biggest impact on our win/loss along with hopefully finding another mid through the draft or trade.

 

[jenny61_99]

Yes. But we haven't really shown any improvement on last year IMO. I understand we gutted the list in 2020 and 2021 an improvement on 2020 (perfectly acceptable in my book), but we should have been looking to see some more improvement on last year.

We technically gained Dawson, Rachele, Matt Crouch and Milera and lost Seedsman, Kelly and Sloane from last years best 22.

Last year we were 3-6 with a percentage of 84.67%
This year we are 3-6 with a percentage of 80.54%

The concern for me is that we are a carbon copy of last year. There hasn't really been much growth.

Most concerning for me is what is happening with Schoenberg. His management has been very poor this year.

9 games in??? Really? Is there somewhere written down that all growth is exponential and to a timetable? Surely you have to allow for nuances and other variables?

We have played 9 games. Game 1: Lost by one point to Freo (3rd). Game 2: Lost by 42 points to Collingwood (11th). This was a massive stuff up by the coaching staff who decided we needed to play more defensively. They fixed this for the following game. Game 3: Won by 4 points against Port (10th). Game 4: Lost by 4 points to Essendon (16th). Game 5. Won by 19 points against Richmond (8th) Game 6: Won by 1 point against Bulldogs (9th) at Ballarat. Game 7: Lost to GWS by a lot (15th) Game 8: Lost by 8 goals to Carlton (4th) and Game 9: Lost by 6 goals to Brisbane (2nd). In 5 of our 9 games we have been thoroughly competitive. In fact, I'd say we were also competitive against Brisbane until half time. So that's SIX of nine games. We are playing, for the most part, an attacking brand of footy and when we are on and clicking, we look unbeatable. The trick now is to get us playing more like that.

I'm not sure how you think Schoenberg could have been handled better? Down on form, gets dropped. Also, they've been much more aggressive in their selection in the last few weeks, which is pleasing to see - dropping both ROB and Crouch (and others). Rebuilds don't happen overnight... or even in a couple of seasons. But IMO we are definitely taking some positive steps forward.

 

[Vader]

Yes. But we haven't really shown any improvement on last year IMO. I understand we gutted the list in 2020 and 2021 an improvement on 2020 (perfectly acceptable in my book), but we should have been looking to see some more improvement on last year.

We technically gained Dawson, Rachele, Matt Crouch and Milera and lost Seedsman, Kelly and Sloane from last years best 22.

Last year we were 3-6 with a percentage of 84.67%
This year we are 3-6 with a percentage of 80.54%

The concern for me is that we are a carbon copy of last year. There hasn't really been much growth.

Most concerning for me is what is happening with Schoenberg. His management has been very poor this year.

Progress was never going to be linear. The teams we fielded against Carlton & Brisbane averaged just 23 yrs 11 mths & 24 yrs 2 mths, and 56.5 and 63.1 games per player. Carlton's players averaged 20+ more games than their opponents, Brisbane's players averaged 40+ more.

Adelaide came into the season with only 7 players with 100+ AFL games, and we've since lost 2 of them to long term injuries. Our team is desperately undersized and inexperienced.

Yes we gained Crouch & Milera, but Milera's been out of the game for 2 years, and his most recent knee injury was of a type which is career ending as often as not. Do not be surprised if he's played his last AFL game. Similarly, Crouch has missed and entire year, in which time the game has gone past him. While we got them back, they are/were not going to result in the improvement that many here hoped/expected to see in 2022. That improvement has to come from the organic improvement of our young & developing players.

Of the other players you listed, Rachelle is a 1st year draftee. He's excited us with cameo flashes, showing what he'll be capable of in the future - but anyone who was expecting him to be a driving force in improving the team's fortunes in 2022 has rocks in their heads. Dawson is a mature body, who has delivered exactly what we wanted him to - but one player isn't enough to make that much difference on his own.

What we are seeing is exactly what we should expect to see - inconsistency, due to the youth, immature bodies, and inexperience of our team. This year was always going to be one step forward, one step back.

 

[AFC979810]

9 games in??? Really? Is there somewhere written down that all growth is exponential and to a timetable? Surely you have to allow for nuances and other variables?

We have played 9 games. Game 1: Lost by one point to Freo (3rd). Game 2: Lost by 42 points to Collingwood (11th). This was a massive stuff up by the coaching staff who decided we needed to play more defensively. They fixed this for the following game. Game 3: Won by 4 points against Port (10th). Game 4: Lost by 4 points to Essendon (16th). Game 5. Won by 19 points against Richmond (8th) Game 6: Won by 1 point against Bulldogs (9th) at Ballarat. Game 7: Lost to GWS by a lot (15th) Game 8: Lost by 8 goals to Carlton (4th) and Game 9: Lost by 6 goals to Brisbane (2nd). In 5 of our 9 games we have been thoroughly competitive. In fact, I'd say we were also competitive against Brisbane until half time. So that's SIX of nine games. We are playing, for the most part, an attacking brand of footy and when we are on and clicking, we look unbeatable. The trick now is to get us playing more like that.

I'm not sure how you think Schoenberg could have been handled better? Down on form, gets dropped. Also, they've been much more aggressive in their selection in the last few weeks, which is pleasing to see - dropping both ROB and Crouch (and others). Rebuilds don't happen overnight... or even in a couple of seasons. But IMO we are definitely taking some positive steps forward.

To the first point. Nowhere is it written that all growth is exponential and to a timetable. I am just saying I haven't seen the growth I was expecting this year.

We are a pretty identical clone to 2021. Don't forget in the first 10 rounds we were 4-6 and had beaten the previous years grand finalist and also the eventual premiers. All of the positives you listed above occurred (almost identically) in 2021 as they have in 2022.

What have you seen as an improvement in 2022 compared to 2021?

As to how Schoenberg could be handled better, the answer is continuity. His last month has seen him go SANFL, Sub, AFL, No footy. IMO he is one of our 3 most important young pieces, and the focus from the club above all else should be getting him right. Whether thats leaving him in the SANFL to get fit or beating up on SANFL players for confidence. Or we make him figure it out at AFL level.