NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.

Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[gouki88]

Look around the world. Show a better system.

There are plenty of ideals that we could learn from across the world. Many Nordic justice systems have elements which I think are worth adopting, with more equitable financial repercussions & focusing more on rehabilitation.

But I don't think that matters - do you think our system is perfect? If not, why should we not try and improve it?

 

[Carringbush2010]

So the point you were making was that because there is no structural and historical power imbalance that vague assertions to your skin color arent actually by nature derogatory? And that because you are within the overwhelming majority and sit within the walls of systemic racism as protected that your experiences were not really a problem and not really related?

Cause if so, I agree.

Sigh.

Way to make something completely irrelevant to what I posted.

Read this again, which is in the post you replied to

I replied to someone who claimed to have not experienced racism (or that was the impression I got) that I have and it was blatant and the norm.

Pretty *n easy to understand I would've thought, but nah you had to over react - again.

 

[phantom13]

Sigh.

Way to make something completely irrelevant to what I posted.

Read this again, which is in the post you replied to

I replied to someone who claimed to have not experienced racism (or that was the impression I got) that I have and it was blatant and the norm.

Pretty *n easy to understand I would've thought, but nah you had to over react - again.

I was the one you replied to, so yeh, racism exists on a scale and by your own admission yours either barely or doesn’t register.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I hear today a player involved in the complaint against Fagan didn’t show up to mediation. And the complaint against him was he nodded his head in a meeting. And Fagan is desperate for this to get to court so everyone can provide evidence under under oath… funny that.

All the people who posted a million comments in the first portion of this thread suggesting there were multiple smoking guns and belittle those who said we should wait until we hear both sides, must now feel like absolute imbeciles for not honouring the all important ‘innocent until proven guilty’.

What an embarrassing sh*t show that dragged people’s reputation through the mud for what now is proving to be lies and nothing but the sniffing of a payday.

By geez I hope this gets to court.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[blackshadow]

I hear today a player involved in the complaint against Fagan didn’t show up to mediation. And the complaint against him was he nodded his head in a meeting. And Fagan is desperate for this to get to court so everyone can provide evidence under under oath… funny that.

All the people who posted a million comments in the first portion of this thread suggesting there were multiple smoking guns and belittle those who said we should wait until we hear both sides, must now feel like absolute imbeciles for not honouring the all important ‘innocent until proven guilty’.

What an embarrassing sh*t show that dragged people’s reputation through the mud for what now is proving to be lies and nothing but the sniffing of a payday.

By geez I hope this gets to court.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Lethal unloaded about the “shambolic and disgusting” farce of an investigation.

 

[M Malice]

The 2nd paragraph that I bolded from the article is stunning if true.
_____________________________________________

Brisbane board member Leigh Matthews maintains coach Chris Fagan’s innocence amid Hawks racism saga​

An AFL great has revealed the single allegation made against Lions coach Chris Fagan in the Hawthorn racism saga, while saying Brisbane’s coach has had his reputation tarnished unfairly.

Jon Ralph

@RalphyHeraldSun

2 min read
June 2, 2024 - 3:29PM
News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom

AFL: Brisbane Lions coach and former Hawthorn staffer Chris Fagan says he'd welcome the chance to tell his side of the story of the Hawks' racism saga.

Brisbane board member Leigh Matthews says the single allegation against Chris Fagan as part of the Hawthorn racism investigation was that he “nodded his head in a meeting”.

The AFL great, Lions triple premiership coach and current board member lambasted the Hawks report and subsequent AFL inquiry as “shambolic and disgusting” as he made clear he was convinced of Fagan’s innocence.
Fagan said recently he was not afraid of speaking his truth as the allegations look set to proceed to an open Federal Court hearing after the Australian Human Rights Commission ended its mediation process.
Matthews said he believed Fagan’s reputation had been unfairly tarnished and stated the complainant who had lodged allegations against him did not even turn up in the mediation process.

Two secret AFL reports unearthed by the Herald Sun last week found a “startling lack of evidence” into allegations against the former Hawthorn coaches and officials.

“All I am saying is (everyone) would like it to end but I would like it to go to court now. It has been shambolic,” Matthews told 3AW of the process.

“A player didn’t even turn up. The confidentiality the accused kept has not been matched by the confidentialities of the accusers and their legal people. Chris Fagan never even got in the same room. The complaint for Chris Fagan is he nodded his head once in a meeting.

“How petty. That is the complaint. And the reputational damage …. It’s shambolic and it’s disgusting. It’s a beat-up.”

He said it was time for all of the allegations of racism against former Hawthorn players by Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt to be tested in open court.

“The only way now is to go to court. Let all the people who have made a complaint be cross examined. I doubt that will happen

“Anyone who has looked at it behind the scenes has said there is nothing here.

There is nothing to substantiate the complaining but the only way we will find that out is go to court. Go to court and find out.”

Hawthorn president Andy Gowers said last week he was disappointed a resolution could not be reached but the club will continue the process to eventually find a resolution.

“We have engaged with the AHRC process in good faith and have made multiple attempts to resolve the matter with all parties,” Mr Gowers said.

“It is unfortunate that this was not possible via this process, however, we remain committed to and will continue to work towards having the matter resolved.”

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Genuine question, is there a source for that last paragraph?

I’ve worked quite a bit with Victoria (and NSW) DJCS and DoH and neither would classify that as custodial so it seems odd they’d be classified as a death on custody.

I’d imagine that death would be included on broader auxiliary figures statistically but not the final death in custody figure.

Not having a go, genuinely curious.

I don't think they're counted that way officially but the aggrieved parties count them as such.

 

[JackOutback]

Its a nothing comment. Every country is racist. And in the scale of racism, we are very low on the list.

The fact that we have ripped jeans as an issue shows how insignificant it is.

We are actually quite a racist country, probably not that low on the list. People think because we don't have people in hoods yelling slurs in public, that we don’t have a problem. The country was created on a racist protocol, 200 years later, the judicial system is still heavily weighted against Indigenous people, some remote communities exist in third world conditions and the nation recently rejected a small gesture towards self-determination. But, hey, people tut tut if you call someone a b****, so it’s all good

 

[Carringbush2010]

I was the one you replied to, so yeh, racism exists on a scale and by your own admission yours either barely or doesn’t register.

I'm not arguing that racism doesnt exists. For example Like I said earlier the torn jeans comment is imo far reaching in bad faith or far reaching because the supposed victim is highly sensitive.

If that makes me a bad person, then I guess I'm a bad person and probably the overwhelming majority of the population are too.

Now I'm starting to understand where ' we're a very racist country ' comes from.

Either over sensitive people or people that look for offence in bad faith.

 

[phantom13]

I'm not arguing that racism doesnt exists. For example Like I said earlier the torn jeans comment is imo far reaching in bad faith or far reaching because the supposed victim is highly sensitive.

If that makes me a bad person, then I guess I'm a bad person and probably the overwhelming majority of the population are too.

Now I'm starting to understand where ' we're a very racist country ' comes from.

Either over sensitive people or people that look for offence in bad faith.

Or people who see systemic and historical racism in our infrastructure.

No one has at any point stated that racism doesn’t exist, you used the example of being called a skip to demonstrate that racism exists for white people. Interestingly in replying to me for pointing out I’ve never been subject to racism.

Now I’ve also been called a skip, cracker etc. but I’ve not felt that it was racist because it has zero effect on my credibility, there’s no historical or social bias against white people so even if there was malice in it, it doesn’t really work. You, saying Mrs.Rioli is overly sensitive because she thought the jeans comment was racist, see those comments (skip etc) as racist.

But Mrs.R is the sensitive one.

 

[brmi]

Absolute farce from the start. A couple of the accusations of racism now coming to light seem to be nothing more than every day interactions completely overblown by those looking to be offended.

Seriously, if comments about clothing and a nodding of the head are reasons this is going to the courts - it's an absolute disgrace and those making the accusations should be held accountable.

 

[Elixuh]

The 2nd paragraph that I bolded from the article is stunning if true.
_____________________________________________

Brisbane board member Leigh Matthews maintains coach Chris Fagan’s innocence amid Hawks racism saga​

An AFL great has revealed the single allegation made against Lions coach Chris Fagan in the Hawthorn racism saga, while saying Brisbane’s coach has had his reputation tarnished unfairly.

Jon Ralph

@RalphyHeraldSun

2 min read
June 2, 2024 - 3:29PM
News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom

AFL: Brisbane Lions coach and former Hawthorn staffer Chris Fagan says he'd welcome the chance to tell his side of the story of the Hawks' racism saga.

Brisbane board member Leigh Matthews says the single allegation against Chris Fagan as part of the Hawthorn racism investigation was that he “nodded his head in a meeting”.

The AFL great, Lions triple premiership coach and current board member lambasted the Hawks report and subsequent AFL inquiry as “shambolic and disgusting” as he made clear he was convinced of Fagan’s innocence.
Fagan said recently he was not afraid of speaking his truth as the allegations look set to proceed to an open Federal Court hearing after the Australian Human Rights Commission ended its mediation process.
Matthews said he believed Fagan’s reputation had been unfairly tarnished and stated the complainant who had lodged allegations against him did not even turn up in the mediation process.

Two secret AFL reports unearthed by the Herald Sun last week found a “startling lack of evidence” into allegations against the former Hawthorn coaches and officials.

“All I am saying is (everyone) would like it to end but I would like it to go to court now. It has been shambolic,” Matthews told 3AW of the process.

“A player didn’t even turn up. The confidentiality the accused kept has not been matched by the confidentialities of the accusers and their legal people. Chris Fagan never even got in the same room. The complaint for Chris Fagan is he nodded his head once in a meeting.

“How petty. That is the complaint. And the reputational damage …. It’s shambolic and it’s disgusting. It’s a beat-up.”

He said it was time for all of the allegations of racism against former Hawthorn players by Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt to be tested in open court.

“The only way now is to go to court. Let all the people who have made a complaint be cross examined. I doubt that will happen

“Anyone who has looked at it behind the scenes has said there is nothing here.

There is nothing to substantiate the complaining but the only way we will find that out is go to court. Go to court and find out.”

Hawthorn president Andy Gowers said last week he was disappointed a resolution could not be reached but the club will continue the process to eventually find a resolution.

“We have engaged with the AHRC process in good faith and have made multiple attempts to resolve the matter with all parties,” Mr Gowers said.

“It is unfortunate that this was not possible via this process, however, we remain committed to and will continue to work towards having the matter resolved.”

The longer this goes on the worse and worse this looks for Hawthorn - from all angles. Deary me. What an incompetent and negligent organisation.

 

[Elixuh]

Interesting listen.

'Don't put words in his mouth': Leigh Matthews and Caroline Wilson clash over the Hawthorn racism saga

Leigh Matthews and Caroline Wilson have clashed over the Hawthorn racism saga, after mediation talks broke down during the week. Wilson says Alastair Clarkson “vehemently” denies the allegations of racism, which led Matthews to question her saying “who are your sources?” Further discussion...

www.3aw.com.au

 

[South of the Yarra]

Absolute farce from the start. A couple of the accusations of racism now coming to light seem to be nothing more than every day interactions completely overblown by those looking to be offended.

Seriously, if comments about clothing and a nodding of the head are reasons this is going to the courts - it's an absolute disgrace and those making the accusations should be held accountable.

Spoken like someone who has no concept of what racism is. 'Those looking to be offended'. Do you think people want to cop racial abuse, do you think Aboriginal people what to be stereotyped, put down, marginalised. Find out the full story and stopping believing snippets from the boys club.

 

[Elixuh]

Spoken like someone who has no concept of what racism is. 'Those looking to be offended'. Do you think people want to cop racial abuse, do you think Aboriginal people what to be stereotyped, put down, marginalised. Find out the full story and stopping believing snippets from the boys club.

Hopefully it goes to court so that we can find out the full details as it will stop so much of the conjecture. Hopefully the complainants make the application soon so that it can be resolved in the shortest possible timeframe, for everyone's sake.

 

[Elixuh]

 

[brmi]

Spoken like someone who has no concept of what racism is. 'Those looking to be offended'. Do you think people want to cop racial abuse, do you think Aboriginal people what to be stereotyped, put down, marginalised. Find out the full story and stopping believing snippets from the boys club.

Of course no one wants to cop racial abuse or should, and of course no one wants to be stereotyped or put down. I'm not suggesting anyone should be under any circumstance.

If people are willing to make extremely serious and hurtful accusations, maybe they should be willing to go to court and take this all the way. But we all have our doubts they will.

 

[perplexed]

Interesting listen.

'Don't put words in his mouth': Leigh Matthews and Caroline Wilson clash over the Hawthorn racism saga

Leigh Matthews and Caroline Wilson have clashed over the Hawthorn racism saga, after mediation talks broke down during the week. Wilson says Alastair Clarkson “vehemently” denies the allegations of racism, which led Matthews to question her saying “who are your sources?” Further discussion...

www.3aw.com.au

All a bit weird. They seem to think that they know a lot more about this than we do, but aren't really saying what they know or how they know it.

I don't understand either who would be taking it to Federal Court or why Matthews thinks this a good idea. This seems to be the worst possible outcome; it will inevitably damage everyone involved.

 

[Elixuh]

All a bit weird. They seem to think that they know a lot more about this than we do, but aren't really saying what they know or how they know it.

I don't understand either who would be taking it to Federal Court or why Matthews thinks this a good idea. This seems to be the worst possible outcome; it will inevitably damage everyone involved.

Lethal on the Board of the Lions so would know and have been briefed on all of the detail. I suspect he is saying that it is a good idea that this go to court because either he genuinely believes that or (more likely) because he is confident that it won't make it to court.

 

[sr36]

The 2nd paragraph that I bolded from the article is stunning if true.
_____________________________________________

Brisbane board member Leigh Matthews maintains coach Chris Fagan’s innocence amid Hawks racism saga​

An AFL great has revealed the single allegation made against Lions coach Chris Fagan in the Hawthorn racism saga, while saying Brisbane’s coach has had his reputation tarnished unfairly.

Jon Ralph

@RalphyHeraldSun

2 min read
June 2, 2024 - 3:29PM
News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom

AFL: Brisbane Lions coach and former Hawthorn staffer Chris Fagan says he'd welcome the chance to tell his side of the story of the Hawks' racism saga.

Brisbane board member Leigh Matthews says the single allegation against Chris Fagan as part of the Hawthorn racism investigation was that he “nodded his head in a meeting”.

The AFL great, Lions triple premiership coach and current board member lambasted the Hawks report and subsequent AFL inquiry as “shambolic and disgusting” as he made clear he was convinced of Fagan’s innocence.
Fagan said recently he was not afraid of speaking his truth as the allegations look set to proceed to an open Federal Court hearing after the Australian Human Rights Commission ended its mediation process.
Matthews said he believed Fagan’s reputation had been unfairly tarnished and stated the complainant who had lodged allegations against him did not even turn up in the mediation process.

Two secret AFL reports unearthed by the Herald Sun last week found a “startling lack of evidence” into allegations against the former Hawthorn coaches and officials.

“All I am saying is (everyone) would like it to end but I would like it to go to court now. It has been shambolic,” Matthews told 3AW of the process.

“A player didn’t even turn up. The confidentiality the accused kept has not been matched by the confidentialities of the accusers and their legal people. Chris Fagan never even got in the same room. The complaint for Chris Fagan is he nodded his head once in a meeting.

“How petty. That is the complaint. And the reputational damage …. It’s shambolic and it’s disgusting. It’s a beat-up.”

He said it was time for all of the allegations of racism against former Hawthorn players by Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt to be tested in open court.

“The only way now is to go to court. Let all the people who have made a complaint be cross examined. I doubt that will happen

“Anyone who has looked at it behind the scenes has said there is nothing here.

There is nothing to substantiate the complaining but the only way we will find that out is go to court. Go to court and find out.”

Hawthorn president Andy Gowers said last week he was disappointed a resolution could not be reached but the club will continue the process to eventually find a resolution.

“We have engaged with the AHRC process in good faith and have made multiple attempts to resolve the matter with all parties,” Mr Gowers said.

“It is unfortunate that this was not possible via this process, however, we remain committed to and will continue to work towards having the matter resolved.”

What's the context that he is accused of nodding his head and why do you think it wasn't mentioned in that article ...

 

[South of the Yarra]

Of course no one wants to cop racial abuse or should, and of course no one wants to be stereotyped or put down. I'm not suggesting anyone should be under any circumstance.

If people are willing to make extremely serious and hurtful accusations, maybe they should be willing to go to court and take this all the way. But we all have our doubts they will.

Do we?

 

[brmi]

Do we?

You tell us.

You seem to know more than the rest of us about this situation.

 

[western royboy]

Honestly this thread has turned into the shit show that it always looked like it would.

I’m no rocket scientist but given what information we’ve been provided with so far - which is nil - last weeks uncovering of the “secret reports” means zero.

If Leon Zwier is representing some of the parties then I doubt he played all or any of his cards at the HRC. He may have, he may have none to play, who knows? I don’t.

But if he does have any he’ll play them within the next 60 days or else we will go back to square one. Which started with the Hawthorn sanctioned Binmada Report.

Possibly still a long way to go.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Obviously there's a bunch of people here who don't understand the concept of institutionalised or systemic racism and are most likely so ignorant of what it is they think it isn't real.

Kennett might but be making a dumb **** grandad joke but he's also telling an indigenous woman that because she doesn't fit his standards of ****en whatever she doesn't deserve to be in the place without being the butt of his stupid comments. Kennett is indulging in racism, classism and stay-in-your-placism all at once.

He should have just kept his stupid mouth shut.

It is almost impossible imo to avoid inadvertently perpetuating structural racism (at least that’s what I find when posting here) it has got to a point where I now go “**** it yep I’m a structural racist. So ****ing what” because it seems impossible to change (rather the effort required really does not seem worth it)

 

[Crankyhawk]

Im happy to accept you dont think the jeans joke was racist. I can see how Mrs.Rioli and others can see that it was.

I dont think its really my place to say whether something is racist or not because i have zero experience with being the victim of racism but the point has become alot broader than that.

Ive suggested being sensitive to people lived experience (race, gender, sexuality, socioeconicm) would be smart and you guys are saying nah that creates a divide.

Sensitivity to lived experience (in mental health) is now being highly pushed … but it becomes hard to draw the line between being sensitive and just pandering to anything the consumer wants (even if that is admission without any discharge plan, or to not take medication even though they put others at risk via impulsive behaviour)…

Sorry it’s a bit derailed but the point was that lived experience should not outweigh objective facts