Player Watch Nick Daicos - Can he be the GOAT?

[WalshistheGOAT]

How do you measure it, aside from watching a lot of footy?

The other thing is.... what do the five players you've listed above have in common?

I'll help you out....

All are mature players in years 10 or 11 if their careers.

Right... So just the vibe then. Nicky gets tagged just as much as the other gun mids of the comp, whether they're in their first years or 11th years it doesn't really make difference as nobody is making the case for them to be the GOAT like you lot make Goatie out to be.

 

[Fadge]

Right... So just the vibe then. Nicky gets tagged just as much as the other gun mids of the comp, whether they're in their first years or 11th years it doesn't really make difference as nobody is making the case for them to be the GOAT like you lot make Goatie out to be.

Daicos has been tagged more than any other player in the competition this year.

It's not 'the vibe'. It's based on my observations from the many games of football I've seen this year.

Unfortunately, there's no statistical measure I can point to. But it is a simple fact.

For example, Heeney has Warner and Gulden who have also received their fair share of tags. Teams don't tag 3 players.

Merrett is probably the least capable of dealing with a tag from all the players listed. He was BOG in both Collingwood games this year - I was astounded we let him roam free all day on both occasions.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Daicos has been tagged more than any other player in the competition this year.

It's not 'the vibe'. It's based on my observations from the many games of football I've seen this year.

Unfortunately, there's no statistical measure I can point to. But it is a simple fact.

For example, Heeney has Warner and Gulden who have also received their fair share of tags. Teams don't tag 3 players.

Merrett is probably the least capable of dealing with a tag from all the players listed. He was BOG in both Collingwood games this year - I was astounded we let him roam free all day on both occasions.

Can you tell me who poor Nicky has been tagged by this year?

 

[RCAB]

The only "of all time" Daicos will ever be in the running for is worst mark of all time.

Next week will be his 70th game and if he doesn't take a contested mark he'll have an extraordinary career record of zero.

To put it into perspective, marking isn't exactly Jack Viney's strong suit. At 178cm he's not renowned for his contested marking ability. After 70 games Viney had taken 18 contested marks.

To not have the skill to push forward and take a telling contested mark at a critical time is a monumental weakness.

Daicos is probably the worst marking midfielder I've ever seen.

But, of course, contested marking takes a bit of courage, doesn't it...

Clayton Oliver has taken ZERO contested marks this year. I think the point you're trying to make is borderline obsessive psychotic over a 21 year old.

 

[Fadge]

Clayton Oliver has taken ZERO contested marks this year. I think the point you're trying to make is borderline obsessive psychotic over a 21 year old.

Add to that list:

Zac Butters
Noah Anderson
Luke Davies Uniacke

And many more.

The return of 0.1 contested marks per game by the likes of Lachie Neale and Serong is also instrumental in making them the players they are, not to mention the 0.3 contested marks per game by the 10 cm taller and 20 kg heavier Patrick Cripps...

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Clayton Oliver has taken ZERO contested marks this year. I think the point you're trying to make is borderline obsessive psychotic over a 21 year old.

"Hard-nut" Rowell took his first contested mark on the weekend in his 84th game

They're just showing their extreme ignorance

 

[RCAB]

This is a really good question and I argued with old heads in here about this

I think they were ultimately right in saying it’s defined by eras

I’ve settled on:
Lethal
Carey
Ablett Sr
Ablett Jr

Ablett Sr wasn't even in the best 3 forwards of his generation, Dunstall and Lockett were better.

That's why you take people's opinion on here of who's greater with a grain of salt.

 

[Fadge]

Ablett Sr wasn't even in the best 3 forwards of his generation, Dunstall and Lockett were better.

That's why you take people's opinion on here of who's greater with a grain of salt.

And you're welcome to your opinion, albeit in the minority....

 

[RAPPA]

Ablett Sr wasn't even in the best 3 forwards of his generation, Dunstall and Lockett were better.

That's why you take people's opinion on here of who's greater with a grain of salt.

So if Ablett Sr isn't in the best three, who's the 3rd after Dunstall and Lockett?

 

[Worm4]

So if Ablett Sr isn't in the best three, who's the 3rd after Dunstall and Lockett?

Haydn Bunton for mine. Statistically the GOAT

 

[Mr Meow]

Nick is obviously not at GAJ's peak yet. And agree with you on the tags front. But I don't in terms of winning the ball in tight. Nick doesn't do it through strength and aggression like the macho folk want, but in his first year as a full time mid he's won a heap of clearances at the foot of the ruckmen - as inside a place to win the ball as it gets. It has him 3rd in the league for clearances - only 12 behind Cripps. 40 more than GAJ got in any year of his career.

Interestingly, clearance inflation is also a thing.

Looking at seasons 2012, 2013 and 2014 there were just 4 times a player averaged 7.5 clearances or above.

2022, 2023 and 2024 it happened 16 times.

Sadly we don't have the more meaningful stats such as proportion of stoppage appearances where a player won a clearance, or score involvements from clearances, or scoring differential from clearances player X appeared at.

So again, lots of room for misinterpretation when you say "Player X has already had more clearances in a season than Player Y from 10-20 years ago ever did".

 

[Mr Meow]

Haydn Bunton for mine. Statistically the GOAT

Bunton played at the same time as Ablett Senior? As that was the question.

I'm assuming they meant Carey though. Ablett and Carey had more strings to their bow than Lockett and Dunstall. They could take over games all over the field.

 

[sr36]

Interestingly, clearance inflation is also a thing.

Looking at seasons 2012, 2013 and 2014 there were just 4 times a player averaged 7.5 clearances or above.

2022, 2023 and 2024 it happened 16 times.

Sadly we don't have the more meaningful stats such as proportion of stoppage appearances where a player won a clearance, or score involvements from clearances, or scoring differential from clearances player X appeared at.

So again, lots of room for misinterpretation when you say "Player X has already had more clearances in a season than Player Y from 10-20 years ago ever did".

With stats like that there's probably also a variation over time in what constitutes a clearance. They might be creditting them more liberally now.

Nonetheless, Nick has gone very well on that front in comparison to his contemporaries this season (admittedly a lot of blocking to isolate him with his opponent due to Mitchell and JDG both being injured) - a bit better than GAJ used to go against his contemporaries. Stoppage craft is not an area where career wise I'd be expecting GAJ to be viewed as better by the end of Nick's career.

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Ablett Sr wasn't even in the best 3 forwards of his generation, Dunstall and Lockett were better.

That's why you take people's opinion on here of who's greater with a grain of salt.

Everything is subjective, this isn’t the intellectual hot take you think it is

Challenge everything

Anyway, Ablett Senior was far more dynamic than those two and I’d say almost everyone would agree

 

[sr36]

Ablett Sr wasn't even in the best 3 forwards of his generation, Dunstall and Lockett were better.

That's why you take people's opinion on here of who's greater with a grain of salt.

I tend to agree. GAZ more amazing, but those two got it done more regularly.

 

[Mr Meow]

With stats like that there's probably also a variation over time in what constitutes a clearance. They might be creditting them more liberally now.

Nonetheless, Nick has gone very well on that front in comparison to his contemporaries this season (admittedly a lot of blocking to isolate him with his opponent due to Mitchell and JDG both being injured) - a bit better than GAJ used to go against his contemporaries. Stoppage craft is not an area where career wise I'd be expecting GAJ to be viewed as better by the end of Nick's career.

I actually think Daicos and Collingwood would benefit more, in an ideal team, with him getting less clearances. Ablett's role was equally split between being first to get his hands on it, and receiving a handball to deliver the killer kick 40-50m up the field. Too often this year we've seen Daicos under the pump and it ends up being quite a scrappy disposal. That's why I'll never look at raw clearances and make conclusions.

1.6 goals/assists and 7.2 score involvements per game is a good return for Daicos, especially at his age.

Ablett's 2014: 2.9 goals/assists and 8.5 score involvements per game, while ticking at 32 high quality disposals a game - that's closer to a bench mark that Daicos should aspire to beat.

 

[sr36]

I actually think Daicos and Collingwood would benefit more, in an ideal team, with him getting less clearances. Ablett's role was equally split between being first to get his hands on it, and receiving a handball to deliver the killer kick 40-50m up the field. Too often this year we've seen Daicos under the pump and it ends up being quite a scrappy disposal. That's why I'll never look at raw clearances and make conclusions.

1.6 goals/assists and 7.2 score involvements per game is a good return for Daicos, especially at his age.

Ablett's 2014: 2.9 goals/assists and 8.5 score involvements per game, while ticking at 32 high quality disposals a game - that's closer to a bench mark that Daicos should aspire to beat.

Agree - but Mitchell and JDG our other first dibs players were injured this year and he was easily our best option as a hit target. It actually worked magnificently for about 6 weeks straight after JDG and Mitchell got injured, where we were blocking for him and isolating him and he was getting really effective clearances - teams adjusted well - and without that extra space that we'd created a lot of his clearances were scrappy. Doesn't have the core strength yet.

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Agree - but Mitchell and JDG our other first dibs players were injured this year and he was easily our best option as a hit target. It actually worked magnificently for about 6 weeks straight after JDG and Mitchell got injured, where we were blocking for him and isolating him and he was getting really effective clearances - teams adjusted well - and without that extra space that we'd created a lot of his clearances were scrappy. Doesn't have the core strength yet.

Daicos at his best is not like Cripps where he breaks through a stoppage or Pendles who dances through it, he seems to be just the only player who can go at near top speed while going laterally

Nobody goes with him when he turns and sprints

That is freak agility, I reckon he is fine from clearance but just needs to calm down and take a second

Again, he’s only a third year player - I daresay in year five he’ll be noticeably better

 

[sr36]

Daicos at his best is not like Cripps where he breaks through a stoppage or Pendles who dances through it, he seems to be just the only player who can go at near top speed while going laterally

Nobody goes with him when he turns and sprints

That is freak agility, I reckon he is fine from clearance but just needs to calm down and take a second

Again, he’s only a third year player - I daresay in year five he’ll be noticeably better

It's the agility and the hands - and they're linked as he's just able to adjust and line up loose bobbling balls like others can't, but the core strength isn't there to break through or stand up in a tackle so he dumps it forward a bit more than you want and doesn't get as much distance on those dumps as you'd want either. A lot of just how good he can become around stoppage depends on how much he can develop his core strength - it's improved a lot though from year 1.

 

[RCAB]

Everything is subjective, this isn’t the intellectual hot take you think it is

Challenge everything

Anyway, Ablett Senior was far more dynamic than those two and I’d say almost everyone would agree

Dynamic doesn't mean better. Rioli and Buddy were even more dynamic than SNR, so does that make them better?

Dunstall and Lockett were less dynamic, but they were goalkicking machines. I'll take the machines.

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Dynamic doesn't mean better. Rioli and Buddy were even more dynamic than SNR, so does that make them better?

Dunstall and Lockett were less dynamic, but they were goalkicking machines. I'll take the machines.

A false dichotomy, a fallacy.. very nice

Not going to bother

Have a good day

 

[RCAB]

I actually think Daicos and Collingwood would benefit more, in an ideal team, with him getting less clearances. Ablett's role was equally split between being first to get his hands on it, and receiving a handball to deliver the killer kick 40-50m up the field. Too often this year we've seen Daicos under the pump and it ends up being quite a scrappy disposal. That's why I'll never look at raw clearances and make conclusions.

1.6 goals/assists and 7.2 score involvements per game is a good return for Daicos, especially at his age.

Ablett's 2014: 2.9 goals/assists and 8.5 score involvements per game, while ticking at 32 high quality disposals a game - that's closer to a bench mark that Daicos should aspire to beat.

Daicos should aspire to be prime Ablett at 30 years of age at age 21?

I remember when Jnr was a small forward and I said that he would turn out to be the best player in the AFL, everyone thought this was funny, including Geelong fans.

 

[RCAB]

It's the agility and the hands - and they're linked as he's just able to adjust and line up loose bobbling balls like others can't, but the core strength isn't there to break through or stand up in a tackle so he dumps it forward a bit more than you want and doesn't get as much distance on those dumps as you'd want either. A lot of just how good he can become around stoppage depends on how much he can develop his core strength - it's improved a lot though from year 1.

I don't think he'll ever be like Cripps or Judd, got to stick to running rings around players.

 

[Mr Meow]

Daicos should aspire to be prime Ablett at 30 years of age at age 21?

I remember when Jnr was a small forward and I said that he would turn out to be the best player in the AFL, everyone thought this was funny, including Geelong fans.

Comprehension isn't your strong suit, which is a shame because otherwise you do okay.

"He should aspire to be" as in, these are the types of markers he should aim to match or eclipse during his peak - given his enormous talent. Maximum disposal and scoring impact rather than breaking clearance records.

It would be ridiculous to expect him to be the complete package at 21/22 years old. It is also ridiculous to pretend he is.

 

[RCAB]

Comprehension isn't your strong suit, which is a shame because otherwise you do okay.

"He should aspire to be" as in, these are the types of markers he should aim to match or eclipse during his peak - given his enormous talent. Maximum disposal and scoring impact rather than breaking clearance records.

It would be ridiculous to expect him to be the complete package at 21/22 years old. It is also ridiculous to pretend he is.

I can understand you may mean in later years, but the amount of vitriol that has been spewed against a 21 year old on this board is unprecedented. I don't think even Cyril used to get this much hate.

Even Jnr at his best had things to work on, every player does. Do you remember the Collingwood game where he had nearly 50 possessions and there was a consensus that he was getting cheap one-twos to inflate his stats? There was a lot of games where Jnr would get criticised for being too selfish and ineffectual. He usually used to shut them up with freakish goals.