Oppo Camp Non Geelong football (AFL) discussion 2024, Part 2

[00VicWard001]

Let it go with the bullying analogy.

Bullying involves repeated instances of causing distress to someone with less power than you.

Unless Kenny has been doing it repeatedly it is not bullying.

Someone eventually was going to call ginnivan on his bs, I respect Kenny for being the one to do so.

Could he have used a bit of subtlety? Maybe, but let’s not make ginnivan a victim here.

Probably one of the few times you’ll actually see a professional sports person (really a petulant child) who has faced no consequences get put in his spot publicly.

That message to Grundy was also a dig at Collingwood - as both left the club. And Ginnivan has taken repeated digs at Collingwood.

Too often, due to their status and professionalism - clubs can’t say anything back. It looks unedifying. And this in turn emboldens guys like Ginnivan - as they assume the dialogue is one way annd consequence free and they are the ones who can give it.

It’s not just professional sport - it’s many organisations where we are almost stuck in behaviours or yesteryear- where we have manners/are professional etc. So hands are tied.

And Ken is an example of what happens when you bite back - you look a bit silly and he’s the one who’s gonna get punished. But it’s great to see as we’ve always wanted to see someone bite back.

And Mitchell is behaving like a bully’s mum - “you’re son should be suspended for retaliation “

 

[kickazz]

Probably one of the few times you’ll actually see a professional sports person (really a petulant child) who has faced no consequences get put in his spot publicly.

That message to Grundy was also a dig at Collingwood - as both left the club. And Ginnivan has taken repeated digs at Collingwood.

Too often, due to their status and professionalism - clubs can’t say anything back. It looks unedifying. And this in turn emboldens guys like Ginnivan - as they assume the dialogue is one way annd consequence free and they are the ones who can give it.

It’s not just professional sport - it’s many organisations where we are almost stuck in behaviours or yesteryear- where we have manners/are professional etc. So hands are tied.

And Ken is an example of what happens when you bite back - you look a bit silly and he’s the one who’s gonna get punished. But it’s great to see as we’ve always wanted to see someone bite back.

And Mitchell is behaving like a bully’s mum - “you’re son should be suspended for retaliation “

yeah well said.

Big watch on Mitchell in coming years imo

 

[#6 Thorp #7 Selwood LOL]

Appreciate the sentiment but what Joel did, and what these little flogs do are not the same thing.

 

[Zouz Kitty]

So what are Hawthorn upset about? Aside from losing?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Ken was out of line and apologised.

If Jack G is ever in a similar situation, whether or not he apologises will probably depend a lot on how Mitchell handles him in these young years.

I think it's a challenge for Mitchell. Ginni gets so much feedback from the fans, it's easy for him to be bigger than the playing group. How is he going to tell ginni to play a selfless game when required when he can't even keep him from doing dumb s*** in public?

 

[MacStradbroke]

Firstly, I loved the post game shenanigans, way too much carry on by some on here.

Everyone can see the whole Hawk forward line are flopping together, it is blatant, but are they also instructed to hold their head every time they are tackled to the ground? Sucked the umpires in early last night and earnt a goal, but happened numerous times. Dead set manipulating the rules (probably well played I suppose).

 

[MacStradbroke]

Ken was about as sorry as I am the Hawks have been eliminated, he was told.

 

[My Tilly]

And Mitchell is behaving like a bully’s mum - “you’re son should be suspended for retaliation “

Likewise Jordan Lewis on FoxFooty.

Could see him gritting his teeth as he had to sit there listening to Jonathan Brown pay mention to the fact it was all on Ginnivan to begin with.

 

[joe444]

Maybe it's just my contrarian instincts but I really feel like the only one who thinks:
1. Port were favourites going into the game and this was far from their "finest hour" (which they seem to have every other month)
2. It wasn't a "all time great final" but a fumbly, albeit high pressure, game between two sub-optimal sides.
3. Hokball is a myth and therefore didn't need to be brought undone.

 

[catters_28]

Maybe it's just my contrarian instincts but I really feel like the only one who thinks:
1. Port were favourites going into the game and this was far from their "finest hour" (which they seem to have every other month)
2. It wasn't a "all time great final" but a fumbly, albeit high pressure, game between two sub-optimal sides.
3. Hokball is a myth and therefore didn't need to be brought undone.

I was having similar thoughts. Port made plenty of mistakes in their forward line and failed to capitalise and be further in front. I think they'll get found out next week big time.

 

[cats_09]

I think it's a challenge for Mitchell. Ginni gets so much feedback from the fans, it's easy for him to be bigger than the playing group. How is he going to tell ginni to play a selfless game when required when he can't even keep him from doing dumb s*** in public?

I know Mitchell talks about how it's a player driven club and that he's just there to guide them - so it'll be interesting to see how he handles the increased media attention they'll now be receiving

It's also likely that the attention is going to be somewhat disproportionate to what they've actually achieved - the question then becomes, if they don't back up this year's heroics and struggle next year, is the extra scrutiny on Mitchell, the players or both?


This is an article from after last night's match that has been given a second chance for an audience this morning - not surprisingly it's been mocked.

But it's an example is the ego feeding from the media that we/they will be seeing - so does Mitchell have the ability to keep things in control & have the tough conversations when needed, or is that not part of the player driven/guidance coach mentality of the club?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

He's also got the weight of the footy world on his shoulders with half of Adelaide wanting his head on a spike after last week, and years of underachieving.

Coaching is said to be one of the most stressful jobs in Australia, I'm not surprised he acted out emotionally.

I'm no fan of Ken personally but he is human and that was an emotive reaction.

Our own coach has had a crack at an oppo player, so we can't be hypocritical.

I understand all of that and the media culture is not ok and is another issue for another day.

But that said ken is a repeat offender in this area so i have little sympathy for him in this specific instance-he knew what the reaction would be when he did it and he did it anyway. While the position hes in is really difficult he clearly lacks self control.
As for scott i said at the time i wasnt a fan of his behaviour but it was in a far different context and he at least seems to have learnt from it.

Ken on the other hand was behaving like a 5 year old earlier this year on the sideline and clearly has learnt nothing from it.

I think because of their views for ken or against hawthorn too many people are failing to see the. bigger picture here.
As a parent of a child with autism and an intellectual disability who i cant risk taking to the football (despite how much he loves it) because of how other people behave i see exactly how important the macro issue is rather than the micro issue.

While how people behave at junior level is on them and this is a societal problem in terms of how we all behave. The fact is role models matter and the behaviour of so called role models like ken is a big part of what emboldens idiots in the suburbs to behave like tossers at junior footy. For that reason ken should be getting a very long suspension but he wont. The afl unfortunately lacks credibility and this filters down to the junior comps.

If some people realised how important that bigger issue is they would reflect on some of their posts here overnight and maybe change their view.

 

[dangerwood]

Probably one of the few times you’ll actually see a professional sports person (really a petulant child) who has faced no consequences get put in his spot publicly.

That message to Grundy was also a dig at Collingwood - as both left the club. And Ginnivan has taken repeated digs at Collingwood.

Too often, due to their status and professionalism - clubs can’t say anything back. It looks unedifying. And this in turn emboldens guys like Ginnivan - as they assume the dialogue is one way annd consequence free and they are the ones who can give it.

It’s not just professional sport - it’s many organisations where we are almost stuck in behaviours or yesteryear- where we have manners/are professional etc. So hands are tied.

And Ken is an example of what happens when you bite back - you look a bit silly and he’s the one who’s gonna get punished. But it’s great to see as we’ve always wanted to see someone bite back.

And Mitchell is behaving like a bully’s mum - “you’re son should be suspended for retaliation “

It's a poor analogy but it's a little bit like a kid in a classroom behaving incredibly disrespectfully to other classmates and the teacher. The teacher is completely hamstrung in their ability to respond because it's inappropriate for the teacher to do so, so the kid can keep getting away with it and knows if anyone bites, the person who bites will be criticised and so the kid is emboldened. (Obviously there's still ways to appropriately respond but ultimately if parents aren't teaching their kids to respect teachers, there's very little teachers can do to make kids accountable).

The parents should probably teach their kid to be respectful of others and the teacher. The parents (Mitchell) are the ones who can most influence the behaviour but they are saying "there's nothing wrong it". The teacher bit back and of course they are wrong and should know better and now the parents saying "you can't treat my kid like that".


...

I'm clearly still bitter about disruptive kids in the classroom and I'm projecting on Ginnivan.

 

[kickazz]

I think it's a challenge for Mitchell. Ginni gets so much feedback from the fans, it's easy for him to be bigger than the playing group. How is he going to tell ginni to play a selfless game when required when he can't even keep him from doing dumb s*** in public?

I'll put it out there - Ginni cares more about his personal brand and what that will mean for him financially and otherwise in the coming years, than he does about team success.

 

[dangerwood]

I'll put it out there - Ginni cares more about his personal brand and what that will mean for him financially and otherwise in the coming years, than he does about team success.

There's clearly a comradery at the moment amongst them as a young group, but it's high egos. As they get a bit older, as contracts come into it, who's getting paid the most etc, the fairness? I think the path they are on isn't sustainable and they will fracture and in fight eventually. Will be interesting.
Ginnivans already felt unfairly treated by one club. It will become an issue that needs to be managed at some point.

 

[00VicWard001]

It's a poor analogy but it's a little bit like a kid in a classroom behaving incredibly disrespectfully to other classmates and the teacher. The teacher is completely hamstrung in their ability to respond because it's inappropriate for the teacher to do so, so the kid can keep getting away with it and knows if anyone bites, the person who bites will be criticised and so the kid is emboldened. (Obviously there's still ways to appropriately respond but ultimately if parents aren't teaching their kids to respect teachers, there's very little teachers can do to make kids accountable).

The parents should probably teach their kid to be respectful of others and the teacher. The parents (Mitchell) are the ones who can most influence the behaviour but they are saying "there's nothing wrong it". The teacher bit back and of course they are wrong and should know better and now the parents saying "you can't treat my kid like that".


...

I'm clearly still bitter about disruptive kids in the classroom and I'm projecting on Ginnivan.

It’s a great analogy.

What you just pointed out (and my thoughts were about organisations, not schools) was that what is occurring is a universal phenomenon- that in the past didn’t exist because bad behaviour was stopped very fast by parents/teachers/the workplace/government. Nowadays, we all feel hamstrung as we get punished via moral judgement or the line of societal standards of punishment having been moved.

In the end, this is why criminals keep offending - punishments don’t exist, or are too weak. Anyone who advocates for them, gets shouted down as old fashioned or not with the times.

Meanwhile, in Singapore…

 

[00VicWard001]

Maybe it's just my contrarian instincts but I really feel like the only one who thinks:
1. Port were favourites going into the game and this was far from their "finest hour" (which they seem to have every other month)
2. It wasn't a "all time great final" but a fumbly, albeit high pressure, game between two sub-optimal sides.
3. Hokball is a myth and therefore didn't need to be brought undone.

I agree. It was just banging it forward at all costs - because having dangerous small forwards streaming into the forward line probably has strong odds of high scoring efficiency.

Richmond did it, we do it.

 

[BlakeyNoFlakey]

To me, Hawthorn has always been an arrogant club with arrogant/egotistical players who sometimes acted like petulant children. This latest example is just a new aberration of what I've always seen with that club. It, too, shall pass.

 

[Romeoh1]

And it wasn’t just the supporters whinging - I seem to recall the likes of hodge, mitchell, Lewis and their cronies regularly trying to get an elbow in Selwood’s head. Rarely did they miss the opportunity to do so.

 

[Hinkley29]

This was before our win over Port last week, but it does show us that last night was the first time in 10 finals that Port defeated a team other than Geelong





While this one was posted the evening after Port defeated Sydney by 112 points




As it sits, 8 wins in a row to Port, including the last 3 at the SCG. The average winning margin is 33.9 points, remove the 112 point win and the average margin is 22.7 points with only 1 win by less than 10 points

Logic says that the Swans finished top of the ladder, have had a week off to refresh ahead of a home prelim and they'll go in as favorites - but history suggests that this Port side worries them & has cause for their own positivity ahead of the match

Who wins?

Sydney by 10 goals

 

[Hinkley29]

I think it's a challenge for Mitchell. Ginni gets so much feedback from the fans, it's easy for him to be bigger than the playing group. How is he going to tell ginni to play a selfless game when required when he can't even keep him from doing dumb s*** in public?

What Mitchell should have said in his press conference:

“Ginni is a big boy and can look after himself. He doesn’t need me to sit up here and defend him against big bad Kenny. Next question.”

Instead he went into outraged helicopter parent mode and felt that he needed to protect the poor lad. He is telling Ginnivan that he can do what he wants and doesn’t have to deal with his own mess.

Not the message I would have given.

 

[Hinkley29]

I'll put it out there - Ginni cares more about his personal brand and what that will mean for him financially and otherwise in the coming years, than he does about team success.

Isn’t that blindingly obvious?

 

[Hinkley29]

There's clearly a comradery at the moment amongst them as a young group, but it's high egos. As they get a bit older, as contracts come into it, who's getting paid the most etc, the fairness? I think the path they are on isn't sustainable and they will fracture and in fight eventually. Will be interesting.
Ginnivans already felt unfairly treated by one club. It will become an issue that needs to be managed at some point.

Their behaviour will be tolerated whilst they are young and still underdogs. It is ok to be cocky and brash when you are the shiny new thing. It gets tiresome pretty quickly if results don’t follow very quickly.

If they don’t perform over the next 2 years the behaviour will be less tolerated and the footy world (including a section of hawthorn fans) will turn on them.

They are playing a risky game, the backlash will be real.

 

[BotsMaster]

Last time

 

[Chinacats]

You're posting like they got belted by 10 goals.

His dimwit kids and the culture they've built are the reason they'll be back in flag contention soon and Port Adelaide will be a mid-table club*


*Though now I've said that,. they'll probably win the flag

In Mitchell’s own words if you don’t win the flag it’s a failed season, so they failed. I don’t mind those words actually and he put it out there. They didn’t deserve to win that and Port should’ve won by 5-6 goals.