Autopsy Round 3, 2018: St.Kilda v Adelaide

[JG22]

I don't see a heap of value of bringing Battle in for Paddy yet.
Battle doesn't pressure a whole lot more and when played wasn't accountable for his man.

Not opposed to having just Membrey and Bruce.

 

[gringo2011]

But do you think Bruce is performing better than paddy at the moment?

Yes.

 

[VDS66]

That’s one late breakfast..

Sunday is our big brunch day on the BBQ.

Eggs, bacon, hash Browns, mushrooms and tomatoes. Washed down with a nice virgin Mary...

 

[VDS66]

Pay me 300k a year to kick a footy and you can call me a ******* useless campaigner all day every day.

SOFT

Sure thing mate. Throwing vitriol at people is the way to go. Great solution.

 

[gringo2011]

Want HG to get some continuity, otherwise he’d be in and presently I’d be axing Roberton for Austin,

Roberson for Austin isn't a bad move. They seem to have turned Robbo into a one on one defender and it's not suiting his game. Austin more a natural stopper.

 

[Gherkin]

On the bright side we’ll gey another top 10 pick richo wil turn into a vanilla turd by the time he’s done coaching with us I think we should apply for a priority pick

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Was saying it most of last season and will still say it now. Play the kids.

Players like Hickey, Newnes, Armo, Gilbert, Weller, Webster, Bruce are not a solution and are halting any improvement. Forcing others to play out of position and enabling bad habits. They have to make way now.

Time and time again we have proof that the young guys are ready. Marshall and Coffield proved it again last night. Need to let them play their style and encourage them to use their skills.

 

[Tyrian Loinstar]

I saw an improvement in Paddy's game last night but whether that was enough to keep playing him is debatable. Like all top AFL forwards he needs to find a way to get separation from his opponents whether it be by strength, body positioning or running.

Another forward tactic we haven't seen this year was our forward line players running screens for each other. Its just everyone fly and a cluster when the ball hits the ground.

I dont know if Richo made the right calls by rotating all the line coaches as well as implementing new defensive team sttuctures this year. Probably too much change for the inexperienced list, hence the break downs in structures.

As VDS suggested perhaps later into the year things will click for the group but they have a lot to work on til then.

Maybe its just me but I just can't get excited about Paddy while he continues to lead with his head. He was about 2 inches away from another concussion last night and only missed because the opposition player dodged Paddys head. Solid citizen Hodge would have taken him out for sure just to name one.

Imagine going into a GF and having him nosedive in 1st minute. Stuff of nightmares.

 

[Tyrian Loinstar]

Sure thing mate. Throwing vitriol at people is the way to go. Great solution.

Noble of you mate.

#VDS66formod

 

[Kildonan]

View attachment 480290

Jack Billings was so far below his average it's a worry. Nathan Wright well below his average, which wasn't much to start with. Armitage played his best game for the year and that speaks volumes for where he is at form wise.

Jack Sinclair was our best in the first half, but copped some attention in the second half reducing his effectiveness.
Jimmy Webster was our best in the second half, despite the criticism he has copped he hit targets at over 80% DE
Dunstan, Ross and Savage contributed all day, Dunstan tagged Sloane and kept him to a very moderate performance, though he did get a bit late. White did well on Tom Lynch, Nate Brown had a strong match on Jenkins and Carlisle did fairly well on Walker. Good performances by Coffield and Marshall also are reasons to feel optimistic.

Substandard games by Armitage, Steven and Newnes contributed greatly to the loss.

Our forward line was dysfunctional. Wright, McCartin, Gresham, and Long all did not get enough of it at all.
Billings was particularly disappointing 4 kicks, 13 HP (17 D @ 65%DE) - given he had 4 marks, one would assume he would hit targets from those disposals that leaves him hitting the target 8 times from the remaining 13 disposals - these were mainly, if not all hand passes. WTF??
Josh Bruce had a good third quarter but wasn't among our better players for the match.

We have to persist with most of the players who haven't yet played three full seasons - develop them. Sometimes that means playing them despite poor form, sometimes that means dropping them to the seconds with a specific task to improve.
But what do we do with the more senior players who are not cutting it?

If I were coaching Armo and Newnes would be in the seconds, Stevens and Steele would come back in. Jack Steven would be on notice to hit targets or find himself on the outer too. Marshall did well but he needs cover too. I don't think Bruce is the guy to do it. So maybe Hickey or Longer come in to lend support while Marshall builds himself up and gains a tank.

I'd be giving Clark another run in a couple of weeks, and monitor Coffield for signs of fatigue.

Yesterday it was our forward line that was ineffective. The defence stood up - bar a few early gaps and a shocking run in the third quarter. So they responded to the challenge. I will also say that Geary has tried to respond to claims that he does not inspire the men. He drifted forward with the midfield and was instrumental in 2 late goals. I still want to explore a few changes down back - I'd like to see Clavarino get a run - has good composure and good hands and Logan Austin was brought in for a reason.

The forward line is a victim of poor supply and poor disposal, but they still were not effective with what they got - so some changes need to be made. If it were up to me, I'd hang on to McCartin, Long, Billings and Gresham and trust that they will improve with better quality supply. I might consider dropping Bruce and rotating Marshall and Hickey through forward line / ruck.

 

[Barrels]

Roberson for Austin isn't a bad move. They seem to have turned Robbo into a one on one defender and it's not suiting his game. Austin more a natural stopper.

Austin is actually crazy athletic for a 196cm bloke. There’s no reason he couldn’t play a 3rd tall/rebounder role like Roberton.

A lots been made of Richmond’s ‘revolutionary’ small forward line last year, but everyone seems to ignore that it had Rance (194cm), Grimes (193cm) and Astbury (195cm) all in its defence at the same time.

No reason we couldn’t find room for Goddard (196cm), Austin (196cm) and Carlisle (201cm) if we felt that Austin was athletic enough to cover smaller forwards while they other two hold down the key defensive spots.

 

[Greg1853]

Maybe its just me but I just can't get excited about Paddy while he continues to lead with his head. He was about 2 inches away from another concussion last night and only missed because the opposition player dodged Paddys head. Solid citizen Hodge woukd have taken him out for sure just to name one.

Imagine going into a GF and having him nosedive in 1st minute. Stuff of nightmares.

Can't understand why he wouldn't have stayed on his feet, picked the ball up, and actually got a disposal. Poor football to voluntarily drop to his knees and stick his head out. Hope it doesn't reflect on his overall football brain and awareness

 

[Greg1853]

Long post coming..

Watched the game yesterday and having been reading this thread and will give my 2c on the game. First of all the people that are say Drop McCartin have no idea then amount of times he got burnt and ignored was ridiculous not to mention the kicking by our team.

Now let's start with the forwards:

Wright: I'm sorry but just not up to AFL standards. Was a mistake in selecting him and for all the speed had 1 tackle inside 50 which just isn't good enough to go with his 5 disposals.
Gresham/Billings: 2 tackles between them and they go to billings with 0 inside 50. They are fornt runners especially Gresham and simply don't work hard enough run/chase when the going gets tough. Great video online about who the biggest skiier is at the club and no surprise 80% of people said gresham. Needs a real kick up the ass workrate wise. Also too many time their half backs would arrive first into the square with them trialling behind.
Long: Ran chased harassed and couldn't have done more from a pressure point of view. Cracked in hard for the whole game and can hold his head high from that point of view. More possessions that Gresham and same amount of tackles as Billings/Gresh with also 1 being inside 50.
Bruce/Paddy: Both dropped some marks that they should take but the delivery never helps them. Both Tried hard and had more tackles then Bliings/Gresham which tells you everything you need to know. With better delivery they will play better. Your only a by product in the forward line of what the mids/halfback do.

Onto the Defenders.

Webster: Played a very good game and his kicking was one of best. Needs to keep this level of kicking for the rest of the season.
Brown: People saying he should be dropped have no idea. Was solid and impacted numerous other contest. Good game.
Carlisle: Was an okay game and held tex to pretty much nothing with his 2 goals being our own fumbles that he converted. Took some good intercept marks around the ground
Geary: Was solid and looker to be playing higher up the ground a bit.
Coffield: composure and class beyond his years. Was a good debut game.
White: Didn't get much of it but played on an AA lynch and I thought done pretty well. Just need to find a way to get involved and run off more. Should keep his spot.
Roberton/Savage: Well below their best with their kicking in particular being shocking. Need to bust a gut more and actually overlap instead of looking for the handball next to the player. Hardly any run provided by both.

Now the Mids:
Armo: Sorry bud, but 2 clearances to go with 13 odd disposals at 47% for a fulltime mid is just not on. Looked slow and lazy to spread. Gut burnt from every contest on the exit. Out for next week.
Dunstan: Has said this time and time again our real leader in the guts. No idea why he didn't play from the beginning and was probably our best mid. True leader.
Steven: Tried hard but just couldn't get any separation and use his break away speed.
Newnes: Couldn't hit a barn door. Has had an ordinary start to the year and should have a spell in the seconds.
Ross: got plenty of it but needs to be more damaging with it. Too many short kicks and not enough disposals that really open up the play.
Sinclair/Acres: Both started off really well in the middle. Both faded badly but will go into that later on as to why.
Marshall: He needs to play every game. Period. Offered way more around the ground and is just a natural footballer. Came up against an AA Ruckman and he did lose a few hitouts, it's not like they won due to that. Longer should never be played again over him.

Coaching: let's just start with the selection of Wright. Don't need to go too much into that. People reported that Membrey wasn't going to get up on Thursday so why not include Battle/Hickey or even Lonie for that matter?? Anyways just a shocking selection to make.

At half time two of your better players were Sinclair and Acres around the ball. So what does he do? Stick them in the forward pocket! Bloody he'll Wtf is going on with that.

Our structures all over the ground are off. The half forwards are certainly not working hard enough to open space but rather jogging (Gresham and Billings) and I would hate to be our defence. No wonder why none are running past to receive a handball cause when they look up everyone is marked up or just stagnant besides the big guys leading to the wings. If I was a half back I wouldn't run past either.

Kicking around the ground was a bit better than last week, but still not good enough. Dixon needs to go as even last year we looked better kicking for goal. Players look too confused to play their natural game and are worried about screwing up some sort of non existent game plan

Anyways that's enough from me. Next week changes.
Out: Armo, Wright
In: Steele, Weller/Lonie or Membrey if fit.

I believe that is a very good summary DarkSaint. I suspect Wright only played because of last week, and the extra focus on pressure this week. I believe there is nothing to be gained ever playing Wright again. Bit early to sack a kicking coach after R3. Half the bad kicking is due to lack of composure, and not sure that Dixon can cop the rap for that.

I agree with your sentiment about Ross. I don't quite agree with many posters on here who really rate Ross' disposal. I think he is fine on the run, but from clearances he often hacks it for a negative result, and agree that he doesn't seem to open up play well enough. Still love him though.

 

[JimmyMann]

B: Geary, Brown, Webster
HB: Coffield, Carlisle, Roberton
C: Savage, Steele, Sinclair
HF: Billings, Battle, Weller
F: Gresham, Bruce, Membrey
R: Marshall, Dunstan, Steven
I/C: Ross, Clark, Acres, Paton

INs: Steele, Battle, Clark, Weller, Paton, Membrey
OUTs: Armitage, McCartin, Newnes, Long, White, Wright

Effort was there last night but the polish was not going inside 50, as well as poor forward work inside 50. Selection changes must be made to rectify this next week:

• While Armitage was brillant 3 years ago, his body is cooked and cannot play our gamestyle. After Steele's belter in the vfl with 41 touches, I think it's time the saints played him in the middle, where his tackling and contested work can be utilised. Plus Armitage is not going to be there when we compete again (Steven may be 35 as well by this rate) so get games into the young guys that will be.
• Battle is a dead eye for goal, I rate him as our most talented forward, while seeing resemblances with him and Rooey (McCartin needs form and confidence, send him back to the VFL so he can clunk some and kick to some bags. McCartin and Bruce in the same team does not work)
• Newnes gets the ball and does nothing with it, as well as his pressure is terrible. Clark is the obvious selection, who had 28 touches in the VFL and along with Coffield needs game time for the future.
• Weller kicked 5 in the VFL the week of the Good Friday massacre and would have been picked if it weren't for injury sustained at training. If he is fully fit, we have to play him over Long (11 disposals and more importantly only 2 tackles in not enough to remain in the 22)
• White can be considered relatively unlucky but his asset (kicking) was poor, just bombing long and hoping for a pack mark. If anything is to come from 2018 then let it be playing the young guys. Paton is a mature body and versatile, so I think another debutant with hunger to be in the 22 will go a long way towards us winning.
• IF Membrey is fit then he must be in (as all saints supporters know) with the late inclusion Wright the obvious man to make way for him.

Remaining questions:

• Is this our best 22? Probably not but it could be and at this point there is no reason to be conservative at selection.
• Can St Kilda play with 2 talls (plus Membrey)? I think they have to but Bruce and McCartin are not a good mix. Both of them need to play deep but McCartin is pushing Bruce out of the 50 at the moment. Bruce is more versatile than McCartin and played he well when Riewoldt was in the side. Hence Battle's slim frame and mobility will have him at CHF and Bruce can be the main man deep. As for Membrey, St Kilda need to stop bombing the ball inside 50 and take their time going in, which will give Membrey a better look at it. If there's no options, that's when you put it high to Bruce and hope he can clunk it or at least put it to Gresham, Billings or Weller at the front.
• Should there be a change in the back half? I don't think so, as while we have been shocking the last couple weeks; it has been a result of poor forward structure, bad foot skills inside forward 50, inaccuracy on goal and lack of pressure (which was improved last night and should be better with our tackle machine in the centre circle full-time). That being said, Savage should move to the wing to improve our ball use going inside and Webster (whose disposal was very good last night) should be tasked with transition from the back half.
• How good are the young blokes we have? Coffield is going to be one of our best, Battle needs to be our focus to develop up forward and while Clark may have been a bit slower to start so far he will only get better with a clear position and role. Those 3 + Billings, Gresham, Marshall, Dunstan, Acres, Sinclair and Steele are the future of the St Kilda team and could all become genuine stars in time. There are positives to come from last night, just need to continue to give the younger guys gametime.
• Will Paddy McCartin ever become a star? I have faith he will but not with the current St Kilda gamestyle. As I've said, Bruce and McCartin shouldn't be in the same side, as they are both deep forwards at heart. I believe Battle, Membrey + Bruce/McCartin would work well in the current era and it might be better for both St Kilda and Paddy McCartin if he was traded away at year's end, as long as we receive a 2nd round draft pick. (Big Call)

Side notes:

• Marshall must be in the side, as his mobility is all we never had in Hickey or Longer. St Kilda lost the hitouts on the stat sheet but Jacobs just about always wins the hitouts and also was competing against Acres multiple times. When Marshall and Jacobs went head-2-head, it was often a dead heat. St Kilda have finally realised that a ruckman has to be good around the ground and have the ability to kick too; Marshall looks like a gem.
• If St Kilda sort out the forward line by bringing in Battle, there's no reason why next week isn't a close match; even with DangerAblettWood in the centre. Geelong's forward line and backline is far less damning than that of the crows and Nathan Brown has always been great against Hawkins (Collingwood's loss in the 2011 GF and Hawkins belter was because Brown did his knee early that year)

 

[saintbill]

Gresh should play ahead of one of the I/C players.

Ah, I actually meant to have Gresh instead of Long

 

[kernelT]

Was saying it most of last season and will still say it now. Play the kids.

Players like Hickey, Newnes, Armo, Gilbert, Weller, Webster, Bruce are not a solution and are halting any improvement. Forcing others to play out of position and enabling bad habits. They have to make way now.

Time and time again we have proof that the young guys are ready. Marshall and Coffield proved it again last night. Need to let them play their style and encourage them to use their skills.

Yep, I think winning 11 games the last couple of years was definitely a false dawn and just encouraged us to play mature GOP's instead of really starting to develop and shape our team for 2020 and beyond.

Armo and Stevens playing ahead of Dunstan to start the year was baffling.

White should have played more than 5 games by now.

When Goddard and Austin are fit, we just have to have a look at them in the ones instead of edging Nathan Brown towards 200 games.

I think being so ordinary to kick of the year will be a blessing in disguise as it will hopefully speed up the introduction of more kids, also richo having 3 years should help him pick a side for the future, not necessarily the strongest week in, week out.

 

[gringo2011]

Austin is actually crazy athletic for a 196cm bloke. There’s no reason he couldn’t play a 3rd tall/rebounder role like Roberton.

A lots been made of Richmond’s ‘revolutionary’ small forward line last year, but everyone seems to ignore that it had Rance (194cm), Grimes (193cm) and Astbury (195cm) all in its defence at the same time.

No reason we couldn’t find room for Goddard (196cm), Austin (196cm) and Carlisle (201cm) if we felt that Austin was athletic enough to cover smaller forwards while they other two hold down the key defensive spots.

Goddard lives near me and he's a very tall 196cm. That's not heaps more than Rooey at 193 but looks much taller.

 

[Gherkin]

What did richo say in his presser anyone

 

[gringo2011]

I believe that is a very good summary DarkSaint. I suspect Wright only played because of last week, and the extra focus on pressure this week. I believe there is nothing to be gained ever playing Wright again. Bit early to sack a kicking coach after R3. Half the bad kicking is due to lack of composure, and not sure that Dixon can cop the rap for that.

I agree with your sentiment about Ross. I don't quite agree with many posters on here who really rate Ross' disposal. I think he is fine on the run, but from clearances he often hacks it for a negative result, and agree that he doesn't seem to open up play well enough. Still love him though.

Bit harsh, he was pressuring which is what we wanted and created the Geary goal through hard work and slick hands. He was at least trying, Gresh and Billings looked resigned to being held back.

 

[plugger66]

Yep, I think winning 11 games the last couple of years was definitely a false dawn and just encouraged us to play mature GOP's instead of really starting to develop and shape our team for 2020 and beyond.

Armo and Stevens playing ahead of Dunstan to start the year was baffling.

White should have played more than 5 games by now.

When Goddard and Austin are fit, we just have to have a look at them in the ones instead of edging Nathan Brown towards 200 games.

I think being so ordinary to kick of the year will be a blessing in disguise as it will hopefully speed up the introduction of more kids, also richo having 3 years should help him pick a side for the future, not necessarily the strongest week in, week out.

Just because we have young players doesn’t make them any good. Lonie is young but hardly anyone wants to play him. Maybe shite should played more but maybe they know he isn’t that good. Same with rice. It’s not like we have a factory of players who can come into the side. Again I think it’s a case of those we don’t see must be better than the ones we do. That actually may not be the case


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[Saintbloke]

What did richo say in his presser anyone

Can't help you there- I'm just sick of listening to him.

 

[Joffaboy]

Kosi = McCartin unfortunately

Kosi was much better than Paddy.

Really missing the out and out gut running of Riewoldt.

Always our get out option. We dont have that elite running in the forwards.

Maybe worth moving Bruce to a wing and get him to use his massive tank. Dont ruck with him.

Riewoldt was an out and out champion but I think even Saints supporters underestimated how important his running was.

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[plugger66]

Bit harsh, he was pressuring which is what we wanted and created the Geary goal through hard work and slick hands. He was at least trying, Gresh and Billings looked resigned to being held back.

If you are talking about wright well he was very ordinary. I’m glad he tried but if that’s the reason for getting a game then we are in real trouble


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[sonnywalters]

What did richo say in his presser anyone

cliche count:

used the word 'positive' 4 times.
'pleasing' was used 2 times

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2018-04-07/full-postmatch-saints

 

[hayes2riewoldt]

You have to say Saints have a huge mental problem at the moment. Recent articles about Saints after they beat Richmond last year, that they were very conservative and put a lid on it are pretty bang on IMO. I don't think there is much belief in the Saints at the moment, and I think the conservative PR coming out of the Saints in those periods has probably been quite damaging. You look at best players in the AFL (i.e. Dusty, Fyfe, Danger, Ablett) and there is a deep down core belief that they are the best player in the game. Even look at Tex Walker, there is a real alpha male I'm the best player in the game mentality. I don't think many of the Saints players have that and it shows.

Clearly with some of the results we had last year we have some real quality on our list, it's just developing that belief and executing it. Sounds cliche, but it's the truth, and part of that is not hearing "we can be competitive with the best teams in the comp".

Team selection wise,
1. Armitage and wright should be dropped
2. Steele and Clarke back in
3. Give White a good run
4. Can understand if paddy gets dropped but think he is showing some signs.
5. Look at moving Billings to half back or midfield

Big challenge for Richo now!