No Oppo Supporters St.Kilda sack Brett Ratten

[George]

He is 56 in a few weeks.

Not 106.

If he thinks he can do it and wants to do it for 5 + years go for it.

AT WORST, The next 2 are pretty much free throws.

It’s the 3rd years results that will be important.

I don't believe that's a good idea. I think we need to succession plan it. Too many questions and we've just ****ed up two contracts in a row, lets not throw 5 years at Ross and find out he isn't able to adapt to today's footy.

 

[Saint Shags]

Whilst I can see your concern I think we fell off a cliff more so because of poor recruiting the previous decade & the introduction of the new teams meant it was difficult to bring in talent.

If he remained at Freo who’s to say they wouldnt have rebounded the same way they have under Longmuir? Blokes like Cerong & Brayshaw were recruited under RTB.

But there wasn't a rebound. They made finals in 15 and it took till this year for them to get back into the finals.

Look at other successful clubs that have been successful over the period. Have they had as big of lay off from playing finals?

If his name wasn't Ross Lyon would we all be jumping up and down for nostalgic joy? Or would we be more tempered here?

And in terms of recruiting didn't Ross have a say in who we brought in and also the development of our younger players? Like Armo, Steven, Lynch and co?

Look if they select him im not dropping the club. I'll watch every week and be either pissed or excited every week.
But I'll voice my concerns like any member/supporter.

Surely it is best to be safe and make sure we have things in place to make sure we protect ourselves as best as possible.

 

[bird_man]

Essendon is the most recent example. The Hawthorn attempt didn't even get off the ground before it blew up. Many Collingwood fans argue their one cost them a premiership.

The two successful ones both had Paul Roos involved.

Forgot about Essendon, that was a disaster

I think there's an obvious link between the ones that worked and didn't and for me it's not Paul Roos

It's the fact that the head coaches didn't have a say in it and didn't seem rapt with the idea

 

[plugger66]

I don't believe that's a good idea. I think we need to succession plan it. Too many questions and we've just cactus up two contracts in a row, lets not throw 5 years at Ross and find out he isn't able to adapt to today's footy.

I’m actually wondering why we need a succession plan? He isn’t old.

 

[bird_man]

But there wasn't a rebound. They made finals in 15 and it took till this year for them to get back into the finals.

Look at other successful clubs that have been successful over the period. Have they had as big of lay off from playing finals?

If his name wasn't Ross Lyon would we all be jumping up and down for nostalgic joy? Or would we be more tempered here?

And in terms of recruiting didn't Ross have a say in who we brought in and also the development of our younger players? Like Armo, Steven, Lynch and co?

Look if they select him im not dropping the club. I'll watch every week and be either pissed or excited every week.
But I'll voice my concerns like any member/supporter.

Surely it is best to be safe and make sure we have things in place to make sure we protect ourselves as best as possible.

Hawthorn will be out of finals longer than Freo I'd imagine

 

[stavro#4]

I think I made sense. In the argument of which sample to choose from, 2011 or 2019, I would choose 2019. I still think both samples are s**t though, primarily because he hasn't coached at any level in three years and it was 7 years ago when he last had a successful year. The game has changed since then so I feel there's plenty to worry about when it comes to appointing Ross, too many questions that can only get answered watching us play. That worries me. At least if we went after an assistant from an elite program there would be less concern over implementing a present day gameplan. And if that person was ruthless and came from a winning background, I think he could do all the things Ross could and probably more.

No you haven’t.

I literally broke down what happened in 2019 and provided the article.

In the 3 years since, Freo were shit for 2 and only performed well in year 3.

There wasn’t a spike after he left. Infact they had another 2 down seasons.

You and BrutThough have said the game has gone past him. It has evolved and new rules etc. etc since he last coached.

Yet everything that was a fundamental part of a Lyon game plan. Is just as relevant as ever.

The good sides still roll 1 extra down back.

Clubs still press and everything is about “pressure”

What is different? What is going to impact his methods?

Oh… he has also spent the last few years watching and commentating and providing special comments on these games.

When you listen to him. The brain is bloody sharp and it makes sense to the average listener

 

[phantom13]

And yet the strategies are.

That was my point

Jeez this is a leap.

 

[George]

Ok

Surely getting two clubs that have struggled for success to 3 grand finals should count for something too though?

Would you be judging Lyon differently if the ball had bounced straight up to Milne rather than on right angles?

I don't see how it's fair to judge Matthews off his one premiership despite being out of the game for 3 years and not getting Collingwood into finals in his last year.

Yeah it does count for something and I would judge him differently because to me you either win or you lose, the rest is excuses. It's irrelevant now isn't it? I don't think footy changed much from when he won at the Pies to when he was appointed at the Lions. It seems like when the Swans introduced the congested stuff in the mid 2000's the game has evolved extremely quickly. Teams have gone past that gamestyle we had back in 09/10.

None of us actually know if he has the ability to adapt because he hasn't shown it with any kind of recent success. Just worries me, that's all.

 

[plugger66]

But there wasn't a rebound. They made finals in 15 and it took till this year for them to get back into the finals.

Look at other successful clubs that have been successful over the period. Have they had as big of lay off from playing finals?

If his name wasn't Ross Lyon would we all be jumping up and down for nostalgic joy? Or would we be more tempered here?

And in terms of recruiting didn't Ross have a say in who we brought in and also the development of our younger players? Like Armo, Steven, Lynch and co?

Look if they select him im not dropping the club. I'll watch every week and be either pissed or excited every week.
But I'll voice my concerns like any member/supporter.

Surely it is best to be safe and make sure we have things in place to make sure we protect ourselves as best as possible.

Surely armo and Steven were developed well. Just because they didn’t play much in grand final years doesn’t mean their development was no good. Their careers suggest it was good. Same with Ben McEvoy.

 

[stavro#4]

Jeez this is a leap.

What’s different??

Correct me and I’ll put my hand up.

Everything you see today. You saw under Ross

 

[Yawkey way]

It’s always everyone’s fault with him. They then go and we replace them and then 3 years later it’s everyone’s fault with him again.

That’s the nature of the business, the successful survive and prosper while those who don't are spat out fairly quickly. I haven’t liked his work but I’ll leave it to those who know the full story to make that call.

 

[bird_man]

Yeah it does count for something and I would judge him differently because to me you either win or you lose, the rest is excuses. It's irrelevant now isn't it? I don't think footy changed much from when he won at the Pies to when he was appointed at the Lions. It seems like when the Swans introduced the congested stuff in the mid 2000's the game has evolved extremely quickly. Teams have gone past that gamestyle we had back in 09/10.

None of us actually know if he has the ability to adapt because he hasn't shown it with any kind of recent success. Just worries me, that's all.

Just like no one knows that any one we choose that has been in the system for the last 3 years that will bring a game plan that will be up to it

 

[George]

No you haven’t.

I literally broke down what happened in 2019 and provided the article.

In the 3 years since, Freo were s**t for 2 and only performed well in year 3.

There wasn’t a spike after he left. Infact they had another 2 down seasons.

You and BrutThough have said the game has gone past him. It has evolved and new rules etc. etc since he last coached.

Yet everything that was a fundamental part of a Lyon game plan. Is just as relevant as ever.

The good sides still roll 1 extra down back.

Clubs still press and everything is about “pressure”

What is different? What is going to impact his methods?

Oh… he has also spent the last few years watching and commentating and providing special comments on these games.

When you listen to him. The brain is bloody sharp and it makes sense to the average listener

I don't think much of what you or anyone else says in favour of Ross will change the minds of others because ultimately the proof will be in the way we play. We will see it for ourselves. I would prefer we don't sign a coach to 5 seasons when there's no recent success to point towards. Would be much more in favour of a current day assistant from a winning culture with the characteristics of ruthlessness and standards we are after. Much more comfortable in believing that person will be able to implement ideas and innovate as opposed to someone like Ross.

 

[phantom13]

Mate if he's coming back it won't be as a mentor it will be as the head honcho. He is 55 and one of the most successful coaches of recent times, the majority of his coaching seasons have been successful and he will absolutely want to get a flag. It will be on a long term deal I would think.

Is he one of the most successful coaches of recent times?

Since 2000 we’ve had 13 premiership coaches (I think? Off the top of my head) and a few multiple premiership coaches.

He’s not one of them so at best he’d be the 14th best coach of the last 20 years.

Most successful available sure, very good in his day, most certainly.

Most successful or recent times, nah. Not really.

 

[Teflon]

Hes not an exec and we’re not doing it quietly so none of what your discussing really has any relevance.


If you’d bothered to read the preceding messages I made it explicitly clear that this is what I would do if it was my personal decision, I don’t expect this to happen nor do I particularly care if it doesn’t follow this process.

As I’ve stated numerous times in this thread, I just want A process of some description. The more thorough the better.

At the moment it looks a lot like we’re doing a Clarko with Ross. How did that go again?

What’s the harm in making this super competitive, ruthless, standard setting supercoach go through a competitive, ruthless, standardized process?

If he’s the right guy he’ll win it anyway, if he doesn’t want to do it then maybe he’s not as competitive as his fans are saying.

I hear what you’re saying and it makes a lot of sense.
Equally I’ve seen people stuff interviews who are clearly best for the job (exams too)
Sometimes the traditional “process” isn’t the best method
In this case what would lose?
Possibly the best candidate for the role….who we also have the luxury of knowing reasonably well (albeit a few years ago now) but he’s not completely unknown…

 

[George]

Just like no one knows that any one we choose that has been in the system for the last 3 years that will bring a game plan that will be up to it

Well yeah, of course, that's the nature of a new appointment isn't it. IMO we will be better off and have a better chance at success with someone who is part of a present day coaching group.

And I'm okay with Ross as long as he's moved on in a couple of years as we develop the coaches underneath him. Just not wedded to him and open to us exploring other ideas.

 

[plugger66]

That’s the nature of the business, they successful survive and prosper while those who don't are spat out fairly quickly. I haven’t liked his work but I’ll leave it to those who know the full story to make that call.

I have no idea if he is any good or not but I do know some happy to let him go are the same done who rated our list but not the coach. You can’t have it both ways. If anything it should be people like who don’t rate our list better than average that should be calling for him to go. I don’t because I have no idea how much say he has in every decision made. None of us really do. Did he want hill or was he overruled as an example.

 

[George]

No matter how you cut it, it means that the coach after Lyon (ie when Lyon goes "tips up") will ascend to the head coach role at a future date without a process. Who says that this person will be the best candidate at that hypothetical time? Its hard enough to appoint the right coach for the now, let alone to simultaneously select the right coach in waiting - who is going to take over at some unknown "**** up" point of time.... all justified by tHe pROcEsS

Worked for Longmire and Goodwin, both premiership winning coaches. Buckley was part of a succession plan and almost got there in 2018 too.

 

[bird_man]

Yeah it does count for something and I would judge him differently because to me you either win or you lose, the rest is excuses. It's irrelevant now isn't it? I don't think footy changed much from when he won at the Pies to when he was appointed at the Lions. It seems like when the Swans introduced the congested stuff in the mid 2000's the game has evolved extremely quickly. Teams have gone past that gamestyle we had back in 09/10.

None of us actually know if he has the ability to adapt because he hasn't shown it with any kind of recent success. Just worries me, that's all.

Clearly your mind is made up then so no point arguing

I reckon anyone that can take Freo and St Kilda to 3 grand finals is clearly a quality coach

They were two of the most disciplined sides of that era

I don't agree that it's fair to judge one coach on his past because he won one more game at the end of the year while totally ignoring what the other did besides his last couple of years.

Happy to move on though

 

[plugger66]

Well yeah, of course, that's the nature of a new appointment isn't it. IMO we will be better off and have a better chance at success with someone who is part of a present day coaching group.

And I'm okay with Ross as long as he's moved on in a couple of years as we develop the coaches underneath him. Just not wedded to him and open to us exploring other ideas.

So again you want him moved on in two years no matter how we go. Makes no sense at all.

 

[phantom13]

What’s different??

Correct me and I’ll put my hand up.

Everything you see today. You saw under Ross

Ross’ last successful season didn’t have 6-6-6, interchange cap was different, no full ground zone defence, lower scoring for a start.

We saw the dogs win in 16 with fleet hands, 17-20 was the tigers manic pressure era, 21 was free flowing fast scoring attacking football with the dees and that stands to this year with the cats.

Footy shifts by degrees year to year and he’s not coached in 3 and not been successful in 8.

He watches, I’m sure he analyses and he was a brilliant coach when it came to breaking down systems and maximizing his teams strengths.

If he can still do that then he’s probably the right guy but we don’t have much proof that he is still that guy.

I get your enthusiasm for him, I really do but saying footy is the same as it was in 2015 and that’s why he’s right is not the answer. If he does the same thing he did in 2015 we’ll be fighting for the number 1 draft pick not the flag.

 

[plugger66]

Is he one of the most successful coaches of recent times?

Since 2000 we’ve had 13 premiership coaches (I think? Off the top of my head) and a few multiple premiership coaches.

He’s not one of them so at best he’d be the 14th best coach of the last 20 years.

Most successful available sure, very good in his day, most certainly.

Most successful or recent times, nah. Not really.

But unfair. Didn’t start coaching until 2007. Hard to win when you aren’t coaching.

 

[malevu]

I’m actually wondering why we need a succession plan? He isn’t old.

Another way of looking at a succession plan is -

1. You don't have the balls to sack the guy suddenly (like Ratts) so you give him a year or so heads up to look for another job.
2. You don't really want the other bloke yet, but you don't want him to piss off elsewhere either. So you promise him the job down the track.

You could say for the incumbent that a succession plan is just an advanced message you're getting the arse

 

[phantom13]

I hear what you’re saying and it makes a lot of sense.
Equally I’ve seen people stuff interviews who are clearly best for the job (exams too)
Sometimes the traditional “process” isn’t the best method
In this case what would lose?
Possibly the best candidate for the role….who we also have the luxury of knowing reasonably well (albeit a few years ago now) but he’s not completely unknown…

With due respect I’ve had this discussion way way too many times to do it again.

Could run a process and still wind up with the wrong person, could run no process and still wind up with the right guy.

One has a much lower risk rating.

 

[Sully111]

Had Max Hudgeton and Ball for his ip and stole all our MacBooks on the eve of the GF and were experimenting with low dose HGH.

Still irks me when malthouse gets credit for that gameplan. "The Collingwood press". Load of absolute bulls*t.