The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Mofra]

This sh!t just got weird.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I don’t know whether Kamala Harris is vice president on merit or whether she was picked because of her sex and ethnicity? Opinions aren’t necessarily the truth? But the fact we question this shows the rot of DEI.

Instead of your usual binary culture war nonsense.

Why don't you actually think things through for a change?

A politician will do whatever it takes to further his or her chances of being elected.

Choosing a woman of colour who will appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. I.e. women and people of colour is no more a DEI hire than choosing a white guy who's backstory is one of struggle and poverty is to appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. i.e. White guys of working class backgrounds.

Let's just be honest here and call the Harris "question" as you put it. What it actually is.

It's Racism and misogyny wrapped in an easily digestible catchphrase for low information rubes. One that dovetails nicely into their core belief that some 'other' is going to usurp their place in society. Its demagoguery 101.

This is now the only thing that Trump and his boosters have to run on now that he's had to disavow Project 2025. Which was to be the policy platform for his second term until it became known outside its rightwing ecosphere.

To think DEI is an extension of the civil rights movement is just not true. The civil rights movement wanted to fulfill the promise of the Declaration of Independence. To come together, to be treated equally before the law, to still obviously see our racial differences but not have them define us, or to get in the way, see each other as equal. We were getting there.
But Critical Race Theory came through the universities and reached corporate America and mainstream media and created affirmative action programs and DEI programs that divide and destroy culture. To artificially create racial quota objectives is wrong on every level.

Of course it is. DEI such as it exists was designed to address the gender inequality and racial imbalances that American society especially at corporate board level has historically had with its hiring practices.

Im not sure how it filtering through the rest of society making it easy for female apprentices to be hired (something I have direct experience with) for example can be seen as a bad thing. But here we are once again. A place where we clearly have a different idea of what equality means.

You still have no idea what CRT means. Or how little it actually impacts life outside of a niche academic study of American law.

As I mentioned I absolutely find this stuff toxic and no wonder people go to a narcissist unit like Trump because of this nonsense.

Other than elevating it in the forever culture wars that came with his presidency. Trumps rise had nothing at all to do with CRT, DEI or any other nonsense that you attribute it to.

His rise was a direct reaction to a looming continuation of the political dynasties that a Hillary Clinton presidency presented.

All the big murderous authoritarian regimes of the of the 20th century practised separation along racial or economic lines. We can’t fall for it. That’s why I oppose so vigorously.

And here its is!

Guy who claims to not have a side, but compulsively rails against anything progressive or outside his narrow view of the world. Hits the latest right wing talking point that equates progressive leftism with the unholy alliance of Nazism and Communism.

You're nothing if not amusingly predictable Fresh.

 

[bresker]

I don’t know whether Kamala Harris is vice president on merit or whether she was picked because of her sex and ethnicity? Opinions aren’t necessarily the truth? But the fact we question this shows the rot of DEI.
To think DEI is an extension of the civil rights movement is just not true. The civil rights movement wanted to fulfill the promise of the Declaration of Independence. To come together, to be treated equally before the law, to still obviously see our racial differences but not have them define us, or to get in the way, see each other as equal. We were getting there.
But Critical Race Theory came through the universities and reached corporate America and mainstream media and created affirmative action programs and DEI programs that divide and destroy culture. To artificially create racial quota objectives is wrong on every level.
As I mentioned I absolutely find this stuff toxic and no wonder people go to a narcissist unit like Trump because of this nonsense. All the big murderous authoritarian regimes of the of the 20th century practised separation along racial or economic lines. We can’t fall for it. That’s why I oppose so vigorously.

CRT, DEI or the Voice referendum don't 'divide' people. On the contrary, they allow certain sections of society , most of whom have white skin, to band together.

Suddenly, though briefly , reminded that they possess whiteness & that this provides them with privilege, they lash out against anything that threatens this privilege.

In his Project 2025 Trump has vowed to ban the teaching of CRT. Apparently it fries his supporters brains to think there's a problem with America, and they might be a part of it. Rather than engage with black people , they silence them. Who are the divisive ones again ?

You can easily run an experiment to see why we need affirmative action. Apply for 20 jobs with the name John Smith, and 20 more with the name Abdullah Hussein . Or Yasmin Hussein. Use identical CVs but change the name . This experiment has been run many times in the US, with the same outcome.

In my own homeland of Northern Ireland, many firms refused to employ Roman Catholics up till the 1980s when they were forced to by the Equal Opportunity Commision. Many Prods complained. Who wants to cede power unless you have to? But equal employment & housing rights have transformed the country. It works.

 

[LittleG]

View attachment 2065173

 

[LittleG]

I thoroughly detest the identity politics ….
But there is something I detest more ….



MAGA!!!!

 

[Freshwater]

CRT, DEI or the Voice referendum don't 'divide' people. On the contrary, they allow certain sections of society , most of whom have white skin, to band together.

Suddenly, though briefly , reminded that they possess whiteness & that this provides them with privilege, they lash out against anything that threatens this privilege.

In his Project 2025 Trump has vowed to ban the teaching of CRT. Apparently it fries his supporters brains to think there's a problem with America, and they might be a part of it. Rather than engage with black people , they silence them. Who are the divisive ones again ?

You can easily run an experiment to see why we need affirmative action. Apply for 20 jobs with the name John Smith, and 20 more with the name Abdullah Hussein . Or Yasmin Hussein. Use identical CVs but change the name . This experiment has been run many times in the US, with the same outcome.

In my own homeland of Northern Ireland, many firms refused to employ Roman Catholics up till the 1980s when they were forced to by the Equal Opportunity Commision. Many Prods complained. Who wants to cede power unless you have to? But equal employment & housing rights have transformed the country. It works.

Compelled morality isn’t morality. Government enforcement of morality definitely isn’t. There is zero place for racism, of any kind, overt and even so-called ‘good’ racism. Racism and religious discrimination will and is dying its own death and is only being kept alive by this new breed of race baiters in the CRT community through their DEI. I can see this everywhere, I can still recall the foul abuse our indigenous footballers and umpires used to cop. I remember my dad’s mates vile abuse towards Glen James and the Krakoar bros. Those days are nearly gone. I know of a couple of dinosaurs who still think that way. We are maturing, each individual at their own pace. But the idea that governments set up quotas is appalling.
The bad blood it is already causing on building sites is real. These are from hardened old timers who work perfectly with people of all ethnicities but can’t cop the social engineering so some government bureaucrats can show this or that figure.
If Trump is being racist with this plan you are talking about, I would condemn him for it, absolutely. I am just applauding his denouncement and mockery of DEI.

 

[Freshwater]

Instead of your usual binary culture war nonsense.

Why don't you actually think things through for a change?

A politician will do whatever it takes to further his or her chances of being elected.

Choosing a woman of colour who will appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. I.e. women and people of colour is no more a DEI hire than choosing a white guy who's backstory is one of struggle and poverty is to appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. i.e. White guys of working class backgrounds.

Let's just be honest here and call the Harris "question" as you put it. What it actually is.

It's Racism and misogyny wrapped in an easily digestible catchphrase for low information rubes. One that dovetails nicely into their core belief that some 'other' is going to usurp their place in society. Its demagoguery 101.

This is now the only thing that Trump and his boosters have to run on now that he's had to disavow Project 2025. Which was to be the policy platform for his second term until it became known outside its rightwing ecosphere.



Of course it is. DEI such as it exists was designed to address the gender inequality and racial imbalances that American society especially at corporate board level has historically had with its hiring practices.

Im not sure how it filtering through the rest of society making it easy for female apprentices to be hired (something I have direct experience with) for example can be seen as a bad thing. But here we are once again. A place where we clearly have a different idea of what equality means.

You still have no idea what CRT means. Or how little it actually impacts life outside of a niche academic study of American law.


Other than elevating it in the forever culture wars that came with his presidency. Trumps rise had nothing at all to do with CRT, DEI or any other nonsense that you attribute it to.

His rise was a direct reaction to a looming continuation of the political dynasties that a Hillary Clinton presidency presented.



And here its is!

Guy who claims to not have a side, but compulsively rails against anything progressive or outside his narrow view of the world. Hits the latest right wing talking point that equates progressive leftism with the unholy alliance of Nazism and Communism.

You're nothing if not amusingly predictable Fresh.

Whether you like it or not politics is about culture.
As for getting this so called perfect ratio of gender, race, religion, disability, poverty etc in a workplace to match the general population. It’s a never ending tale because where do you draw the line? Nearly everyone is of mixed heritage anyway. But the main issue with this because maybe people came to the wrong conclusions as to why things end up like they do? Proclivity, work ethic, culture, education etc etc. It’s all just theory’s as to why things are they way they are. Then mis read theories made worse by stupid logic to try and solve what was mis read in the first place. Government’s are best when they take a back seat. This is actually the American heritage usually on both sides of the political divide. But play an important role still to protect life liberty and property.
It seems like some on here want to put Australian or European style socialism on to the United States. I know the US Democrats are heading that way.

 

[bresker]

Laws designed to treat people equally based on gender, race etc hardly impinge on an employer's private morality. And if they feel they do, then they have suspect morals.

Unfortunately , employers like all humans, aren't divine creatures pure of conscience. They're fallible . That's why we have laws.

 

[Freshwater]

Laws designed to treat people equally based on gender, race etc hardly impinge on an employer's private morality.

Unfortunately , employers like all humans, aren't divine creatures pure of conscience. They're fallible . That's why we have laws.

That perfectly fine, that what I’m saying should be the case. We are all equal before the law. It’s when they try and socially engineer outcomes with quotas that is dangerous and wrong.

 

[yebach]

In order for all to be treated equally.
All must be treated equally.

 

[King Harold]

Instead of your usual binary culture war nonsense.

Why don't you actually think things through for a change?

A politician will do whatever it takes to further his or her chances of being elected.

Choosing a woman of colour who will appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. I.e. women and people of colour is no more a DEI hire than choosing a white guy who's backstory is one of struggle and poverty is to appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. i.e. White guys of working class backgrounds.

Let's just be honest here and call the Harris "question" as you put it. What it actually is.

It's Racism and misogyny wrapped in an easily digestible catchphrase for low information rubes. One that dovetails nicely into their core belief that some 'other' is going to usurp their place in society. Its demagoguery 101.

This is now the only thing that Trump and his boosters have to run on now that he's had to disavow Project 2025. Which was to be the policy platform for his second term until it became known outside its rightwing ecosphere.



Of course it is. DEI such as it exists was designed to address the gender inequality and racial imbalances that American society especially at corporate board level has historically had with its hiring practices.

Im not sure how it filtering through the rest of society making it easy for female apprentices to be hired (something I have direct experience with) for example can be seen as a bad thing. But here we are once again. A place where we clearly have a different idea of what equality means.

You still have no idea what CRT means. Or how little it actually impacts life outside of a niche academic study of American law.


Other than elevating it in the forever culture wars that came with his presidency. Trumps rise had nothing at all to do with CRT, DEI or any other nonsense that you attribute it to.

His rise was a direct reaction to a looming continuation of the political dynasties that a Hillary Clinton presidency presented.



And here its is!

Guy who claims to not have a side, but compulsively rails against anything progressive or outside his narrow view of the world. Hits the latest right wing talking point that equates progressive leftism with the unholy alliance of Nazism and Communism.

You're nothing if not amusingly predictable Fresh.

Not sure why you bother Norm , the complete nonsense and gobble de goop our Trump fan spews on here is both amusing and disturbing!

“ I don’t know if Harris is picked because of her sex or ethnicity “. fmd
Again , I remind everyone this is a Tucker Carlson fan , your not going to get anywhere if you want to stay in the real world.

 

[yebach]

Not sure why you bother Norm , the complete nonsense and gobble de goop our Trump fan spews on here is both amusing and disturbing!

“ I don’t know if Harris is picked because of her sex or ethnicity “. fmd
Again , I remind everyone this is a Tucker Carlson fan , your not going to get anywhere if you want to stay in the real world.

I don't want to have an argument here KH. Just genuinely curious. Have you listened to Tucker Carlson at length?

 

[Freshwater]

Just making crap up, not a Trump fan! On the mockery of DEI, Trump is correct.
I know who Tucker is never listened to him. Don’t do Fox News. Don’t do the conservative radio thing. If you do want to know the commentators I listen to regularly. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Bill Maher, Raf Epstein/Tom Elliot, Bari Weis, Josh Szeps, Konstin Kisen. They all describe themselves as liberals or classical liberals. All have genuine concerns over DEI and what it opens up and where it leads.

 

[Outback Footy]

Compelled morality isn’t morality. Government enforcement of morality definitely isn’t. There is zero place for racism, of any kind, overt and even so-called ‘good’ racism. Racism and religious discrimination will and is dying its own death and is only being kept alive by this new breed of race baiters in the CRT community through their DEI. I can see this everywhere, I can still recall the foul abuse our indigenous footballers and umpires used to cop. I remember my dad’s mates vile abuse towards Glen James and the Krakoar bros. Those days are nearly gone. I know of a couple of dinosaurs who still think that way. We are maturing, each individual at their own pace. But the idea that governments set up quotas is appalling.
The bad blood it is already causing on building sites is real. These are from hardened old timers who work perfectly with people of all ethnicities but can’t cop the social engineering so some government bureaucrats can show this or that figure.
If Trump is being racist with this plan you are talking about, I would condemn him for it, absolutely. I am just applauding his denouncement and mockery of DEI.

Where morality is "compelled" it clearly informs people that the alternative is unacceptable. To the majority. Sexual harassment in the workplace is a great example. Outlawing egregious behaviour does force change. And forcing change for long enough makes it ingrained new behaviour.

While smoking isnt a moral issue enforcing bans on smoking in offices was necessary to reduce health impacts on non-smokers. Bans on smoking in the workplace became bans on smoking in pubs, then public places etc and with those bans came massive reductions in the rate of smoking. A societal good was achieved through compulsion. In the same way enforcing appropriate moral behaviour (dont smack women on the arse any more) can make it more widely accepted and ultimately accepted as the norm.

What the seppos now call DEI we often call affirmative action. What does that seek to achieve I hear you ask? Good question, Affirmative action (and DEI) simply seeks to level the playing field for oppressed or under resourced or disadvantaged communities in our population.

In Australia its traditionally been used to get more women into employment, or to ensure Aboriginal people are working in roles where their lived experience may be more valuable than a doctorate. Perhaps in America its similar for people of colour whos lived experience will often be dramatically different to their white colleagues.

Attempting to correct disadvantage by taking pro-active steps isnt racist. Its a corrective action.
An alternative for America might be compensation for centuries of enslavement. Affirmative action is cheaper, quicker and easier.

Its interesting you say racism is dying. My experience of the Voice referendum is that racism against Aboriginal people went through the roof, a permission structure was established by the right which allowed people who would otherwise publicly state "There is zero place for racism". Murdoch, of course was very publicly in the forefront of this. Strongly supported by Dutton. Which way did you vote?

I would hazard a guess that Trump and Murdochs right wing commentary in the States is providing a very similar permission structure for the white racist community.

 

[Outback Footy]

Just making crap up, not a Trump fan! On the mockery of DEI, Trump is correct.
I know who Tucker is never listened to him. Don’t do Fox News. Don’t do the conservative radio thing. If you do want to know the commentators I listen to regularly. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Bill Maher, Raf Epstein/Tom Elliot, Bari Weis, Josh Szeps, Konstin Kisen. They all describe themselves as liberals or classical liberals. All have genuine concerns over DEI and what it opens up and where it leads.

Are any of them women of colour? Even people of colour? Without that context perhaps they may not know what DEI can or seeks to achieve

 

[Outback Footy]

Whether you like it or not politics is about culture.
As for getting this so called perfect ratio of gender, race, religion, disability, poverty etc in a workplace to match the general population. It’s a never ending tale because where do you draw the line? Nearly everyone is of mixed heritage anyway. But the main issue with this because maybe people came to the wrong conclusions as to why things end up like they do? Proclivity, work ethic, culture, education etc etc. It’s all just theory’s as to why things are they way they are. Then mis read theories made worse by stupid logic to try and solve what was mis read in the first place. Government’s are best when they take a back seat. This is actually the American heritage usually on both sides of the political divide. But play an important role still to protect life liberty and property.
It seems like some on here want to put Australian or European style socialism on to the United States. I know the US Democrats are heading that way.

Socialism? Do you mean social justice? You know, where the rich pay their fair share of tax? I suspect a lot of americans would like to see that.

 

[Freshwater]

Where morality is "compelled" it clearly informs people that the alternative is unacceptable. To the majority. Sexual harassment in the workplace is a great example. Outlawing egregious behaviour does force change. And forcing change for long enough makes it ingrained new behaviour.

While smoking isnt a moral issue enforcing bans on smoking in offices was necessary to reduce health impacts on non-smokers. Bans on smoking in the workplace became bans on smoking in pubs, then public places etc and with those bans came massive reductions in the rate of smoking. A societal good was achieved through compulsion. In the same way enforcing appropriate moral behaviour (dont smack women on the arse any more) can make it more widely accepted and ultimately accepted as the norm.

What the seppos now call DEI we often call affirmative action. What does that seek to achieve I hear you ask? Good question, Affirmative action (and DEI) simply seeks to level the playing field for oppressed or under resourced or disadvantaged communities in our population.

In Australia its traditionally been used to get more women into employment, or to ensure Aboriginal people are working in roles where their lived experience may be more valuable than a doctorate. Perhaps in America its similar for people of colour whos lived experience will often be dramatically different to their white colleagues.

Attempting to correct disadvantage by taking pro-active steps isnt racist. Its a corrective action.
An alternative for America might be compensation for centuries of enslavement. Affirmative action is cheaper, quicker and easier.

Its interesting you say racism is dying. My experience of the Voice referendum is that racism against Aboriginal people went through the roof, a permission structure was established by the right which allowed people who would otherwise publicly state "There is zero place for racism". Murdoch, of course was very publicly in the forefront of this. Strongly supported by Dutton. Which way did you vote?

I would hazard a guess that Trump and Murdochs right wing commentary in the States is providing a very similar permission structure for the white racist community.

Call it DEI or affirmative action, it’s nearly the same thing really. And I think it stinks. I don’t believe in it at all. I believe in equality of opportunity not outcomes. Affirmative action want equality of outcomes. The past has been cruel to many people and there are outrageous arseholes out there in every walk of life but this is the wrong way to fix it. And taking it back to the US election, I reckon a lot of the population don’t like it too.
As for the voice, even equating a no vote, for all the same reasons I’ve outlined here, with racism is preposterous. As Yebach just said “for all to be treated equally, all must be treated equally.” The country who just voted in Albo, said “stick division by race up you arse!”.
If you guys don’t want Trump don’t support this nonsense, and other related ‘woke’ nonsense that is the thing these days with ‘progressive’ parties now.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Just making crap up, not a Trump fan! On the mockery of DEI, Trump is correct.
I know who Tucker is never listened to him. Don’t do Fox News. Don’t do the conservative radio thing. If you do want to know the commentators I listen to regularly. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Bill Maher, Raf Epstein/Tom Elliot, Bari Weis, Josh Szeps, Konstin Kisen. They all describe themselves as liberals or classical liberals. All have genuine concerns over DEI and what it opens up and where it leads.

Show me one instance where Raf Epstein has expressed concerns about DEI. Just one

 

[King Harold]

I don't want to have an argument here KH. Just genuinely curious. Have you listened to Tucker Carlson at length?

I have heard enough.

“ What has Putin ever done to me “ while millions of lives are destroyed as he invades a neighbouring country.

Election denier , flat out spewed lies to a gullible fan base.

The company he worked for argued in court , take no notice of what he says , it’s not news it’s just entertainment.

People like him are the reason the world remain so divided.

 

[yebach]

I have heard enough.

“ What has Putin ever done to me “ while millions of lives are destroyed as he invades a neighbouring country.

Election denier , flat out spewed lies to a gullible fan base.

The company he worked for argued in court , take no notice of what he says , it’s not news it’s just entertainment.

People like him are the reason the world remain so divided.

I've only listened to him a couple of times as the person being interviewed.. He said he deeply regretted lying at the behest of his employer regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction.
He also mentioned that he doesn't trust any government. That government is there to serve the populace, not the other way around.
That what was once the middle class in basically now a slave class for the economic elite.
He also mentioned that he's deeply religious.

I haven't heard everything he's said. But I believe he has at least some valid points.
In a true democracy everybody should have a voice. The truly stupid ideas can then be reasoned out of existence.

 

[BEaston]

Oh I got the picture, believe me I did. But it showed the toxicity both ways. I think you didn’t get it both ways?
And yes in this instance I do defend the orange nut.

Explain the picture for me.

 

[BEaston]

Call it DEI or affirmative action, it’s nearly the same thing really. And I think it stinks. I don’t believe in it at all. I believe in equality of opportunity not outcomes. Affirmative action want equality of outcomes. The past has been cruel to many people and there are outrageous arseholes out there in every walk of life but this is the wrong way to fix it. And taking it back to the US election, I reckon a lot of the population don’t like it too.
As for the voice, even equating a no vote, for all the same reasons I’ve outlined here, with racism is preposterous. As Yebach just said “for all to be treated equally, all must be treated equally.” The country who just voted in Albo, said “stick division by race up you arse!”.
If you guys don’t want Trump don’t support this nonsense, and other related ‘woke’ nonsense that is the thing these days with ‘progressive’ parties now.

Of course you think it stinks/don't believe in it. You wouldn't want to cede any power you hold to others less fortunate.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Amazing Let's question whether the prosecutor/ attorney general / senator is only where they are now because they're black. Or are they really black? They just turned black right? Or maybe it's because they're female?

No worries though about the game show host who has had 6 businesses declared bankrupt, is a convicted felon and has a history of racism and sexual assault. He's all good, worthy candidate, though i'm not defending him.

 

[Freshwater]

Of course you do. You wouldn't want to cede any power you hold to others less fortunate.

 

[Freshwater]

Show me one instance where Raf Epstein has expressed concerns about DEI. Just one.

I won't beat around the bush like previous posters.

Absolute garbage. You should be ashamed of that post. Problem is the mods share your political views, but hopefully not your appalling accusation? The racism is in DEI and I call it out. I have never even been disrespectful to anyone on here let alone close to racism, disgusting and the morons that liked it are just as bad. Total good faith debate here from me. If only you knew the damage your paternalistic views on race have.