We need Holmes to continue his development and become elite
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We need Holmes to continue his development and become elite
After last night there would only be 12 players in the entire league who have picked up more coaches votes than Max Holmes in 2024.We need Holmes to continue his development and become elite
After last night there would only be 12 players in the entire league who have picked up more coaches votes than Max Holmes in 2024.
He was the number one ranked defender in the league by the same metric at the end of the H&A season.
He also picks up coaches votes frequently when thrown into the midfield or played on the wing.
Holmes has probably been our best performing 21 year old in a generation. Selwood is his only competition, as he was already a gun midfielder.
Well Holmes has still had 3x as many rebound 50s as last year. He's played a serious amount of time at half back, but has usually collected the ball between there and the centreline. I think that still fits the bill as a rebounding defender fine. But just like Dusty wasn't a permanent forward or midfielder for many years, Holmes hasn't been a permanent defender. Much like there weren't many genuine hybrid midfielder/forwards to compare Dusty too, there aren't many hybrid defender/midfielders to compare Holmes to. But having more coaches votes than all but about 14 players in the comp this season (once we get this weekend's results), as a 21 year old, indicates he has been sort of okay in his new role. I know I can't use language any more praising than that or you will have a fit.Holmes is a defender in name and which side of the centre line he normally occupies only. He is about 180th in the AFL for defensive 1 v 1 contests. Most clubs have a player like this now. Out of all the good ones Holmes has the worst rate of disposlas per turnover. He remains young and can improve that, but that is what he will need to do to become one of the top shelf players in the comp. He also attends 30 odd % of centre bounces which muddies the waters a bit, so it isn't a perfect comparison of him v other players considered defenders.
Well Holmes has still had 3x as many rebound 50s as last year. He's played a serious amount of time at half back, but has usually collected the ball between there and the centreline. I think that still fits the bill as a rebounding defender fine. But just like Dusty wasn't a permanent forward or midfielder for many years, Holmes hasn't been a permanent defender. Much like there weren't many genuine hybrid midfielder/forwards to compare Dusty too, there aren't many hybrid defender/midfielders to compare Holmes to. But having more coaches votes than all but about 14 players in the comp this season (once we get this weekend's results), as a 21 year old, indicates he has been sort of okay in his new role. I know I can't use language any more praising than that or you will have a fit.
Is this still a thread?
Good god.
Richmond fans are Caro are ****ing delusional.
Mackenzie did a low grade hamstring, he has been very good this year and was definitely not droppedLol, you fool. Richmond are about to own at least one draft. The thread has not even got started yet. This is where the roads of the two clubs really diverge. Richmond will back what has brought them success in the past. Geelong will stick with a very different method that has also brought them success. There are two very different philsophies opposing each other here, and long term this should be of great interest to all football followers as to how it plays out.
Of great interest to me tonight was the Hawthorn performance and the actual make up of their team. They do not have a high class prime aged core. Of the very high draft picks they have taken in recent years: pick 13 Day missed injured, 7 Mackenzie was dropped, 6 Grainger-Barrass is not going well, not in the team, 7 Ward came in and did well but has been in the VFL mostly recently, and only 5 Watson seems to be going well in his role right now. Probably throw in 18 Weddle, genuinely a rd 1 pick, who is going well.
So all these high end picks are not exactly dominating collectively. And yet they played a good team who seemed to play decently enough and beat them easily. I am starting to think the Peter Burge magic has got them spot on at the right end of the season. Very much like during Richmond's dynasty and even as late as 2022, with the similar tardy starts to seasons then gradually building momentum as the season wears on.
It will be of great interest to see which of these very different paths ends up winning the argument long term.
Lol, you fool. Richmond are about to own at least one draft. The thread has not even got started yet. This is where the roads of the two clubs really diverge. Richmond will back what has brought them success in the past. Geelong will stick with a very different method that has also brought them success. There are two very different philsophies opposing each other here, and long term this should be of great interest to all football followers as to how it plays out.
Of great interest to me tonight was the Hawthorn performance and the actual make up of their team. They do not have a high class prime aged core. Of the very high draft picks they have taken in recent years: pick 13 Day missed injured, 7 Mackenzie was dropped, 6 Grainger-Barrass is not going well, not in the team, 7 Ward came in and did well but has been in the VFL mostly recently, and only 5 Watson seems to be going well in his role right now. Probably throw in 18 Weddle, genuinely a rd 1 pick, who is going well.
So all these high end picks are not exactly dominating collectively. And yet they played a good team who seemed to play decently enough and beat them easily. I am starting to think the Peter Burge magic has got them spot on at the right end of the season. Very much like during Richmond's dynasty and even as late as 2022, with the similar tardy starts to seasons then gradually building momentum as the season wears on.
It will be of great interest to see which of these very different paths ends up winning the argument long term.
Correction: Richmond are about to get the opportunity to own at least one draft.
They will also back what has brought them success in the past and what has also brought them failure in the past: last full on shot at it they nailed it. Multiple times before that they didn’t.
That wasn't the same Richmond. They had no full time recruiting staff.
Mackenzie did a low grade hamstring, he has been very good this year and was definitely not dropped
Genuine question - did anyone else?
No doubt we all over-rate our kids and it is not until you see them for a while at the top level that you see their weaknesses. Our best is probably Cumberland, has all the tools but one, footy nous. You don't see the lack of that until they are at the top level for an extended period.My post was clearly taking the piss, but there's a kernel of truth in there too.
Trust me, we've been there too. A few years ago Cats supporters were fighting back against the masses telling all an sundry that we actually had great kids, people just didn't realise it yet.
Charlie Constable, Quinton Narkle, Brandan Parfitt, Esava Ratugolea, Jamaine Jones, Wylie Buzza, Lachie Fogarty...the list goes on.
It was delusion though, and even at the time I think we knew deep down that those names had a 'role player' ceiling at best, but there's still a part of you that wants to believe.
These are deeply flawed players, and there's a reason they weren't high draft picks, and there's a reason they weren't getting selected regularly.
You're more than welcome to think Jack Ross, Hugo Ralph-Smith, Steely Green, Kane McAuliffe, Ryan Mansell, & Maurice Rioli Jnr are the players to take the Tigers forward. It's your life.
If I'm to recommend anything though, I'd wait until next year when you've actually got some high quality kids to get excited about.
It feels so much better knowing what you're saying is actually true, rather than gaslighting yourself into believing something that's not.
Just keep your powder dry mate.
2025 will be much better if you're a Tiger, but wait till Finn O'Sullivan or Harvey Langford is running around in the yellow & black and you'll understand what I mean.
I think all supporters might look back at the 21 draft and realise it was poor draft to have five top 30 picks in. Elite talent at the top (JH-F, Daicos, Darcy), but not available to Richmond or goone by the time we picked Gibcus at #9. Unfortunately we have not seen what he can do due to injury. Next pick was Tom Brown at 17. Maybe should have gone van Rooyen who went at pick 19. Then picks 28, 29 and 30 (Sonsie, Banks, Clarke). I'm not looking at picks after 30 and seeing anyone obvious who we should have picked instead.Hawthorn’s rebuild really shows how quickly you can bounce back. Start of 21 Hawthorn’s list looked in pretty rough shape with their age and talent profile, but they kept making good decisions to find themselves into a SF just 3 years later.
Richmond is in a similar boat now. A list filled with aging former stars, and only 4 good players (soon to be 1).
A crop of under 23 talent that is clearly the worst in the league, maybe even the worst in the history of the league.
A group of prime aged players who are either shit, injured, shit and injured, about to be traded, or Tim Taranto.
Completely butchered 5 top 30 picks in the 21 draft, which should have set them up, but instead has delivered them a spoon.
A coach who won played over 200 games and recorded only 14 contested possessions.
Because Ryan, Dow and Sonsie look like busts, even Geelong had some of those.Gee that's clutching at straws. Why couldn't Dow do what Holmes has done this year? Or Sonsie do what Dempsey has done? Or Brown do what Humphries has done? Or Ryan do what Neale has done?
It's not opportunity or age or experience. It's a lack of quality.
You forgot the bottom of the ladder.Huh.
4th consecutive year without a finals win, about to lose a handful of your best 10 players, and not a single player in the U22 side?
Things are looking pretty Grim at Tigerland...
Edit: also, not a single player in the top 40 players under 24 years old that was recently published?
Oh no.
And Geelong are the best side in the business at rebuilding, followed by Sydney. But that is not typical.The Cats performed as a top 4 team for H&A, a top 2 team last night and are guaranteed to finish a top 4 performing team for both finals and the overall season.
All we are waiting to see is whether they back up last night's game to be the 2nd best team or the premiers. So you can write that down and then run your follow up analysis from that foundation.
In the industry this is known as "rebuilding on the run".
Richmond's version is called "rebuilding the sewarage system" after a very stinky year.
Yeah look I have nothing against Richmond and fully recognise the bad run they had. What you see in here is mostly just pushback when a couple of staunchly anti-Geelong posters "warn" us that actually everyone under 30 isn't that good or won't become great. You are well aware of the posters I am talking about. It was all well and good to go down that line a while ago when 80% of the class and skill was in our over 30s. Anyone who has watched Geelong in 2024 and thought the veterans have carried a weak 20-28 year old cohort is either doubling down on a biased position or really is miscomprehending what they're seeing.And Geelong are the best side in the business at rebuilding, followed by Sydney. But that is not typical.
Our injury list was pretty severe. By end of May, we had the 4th most injuries in the last 5 years, seasons end we would have blown top place out of the water. In August we had 11 players who had been out for the season or would not come back. Geelong have 3 right now.