Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[DexterTan]

You exaggerate. It's really no point in debating.

I'm not looking for 10 best 22 mature recruits. I'm looking for maybe one extra 1 KPP, gun or not, even a potentially good developing one. I thought about listing all of the KPP's drafted in the last 3 drafts or all of the KPP's traded in the past 3 years but I really can't be bothered. The matrix I'd have to draw to go through all of the potential scenarios of adding an extra 100K to players wage or extra draft picks we'd have to spend on them are so easily shot down that it's a futile exercise.

Fact is, after 3 years you can't be throwing around the excuse that's been out of the clubs hands. Let's be honest, Macca would even concede they've probably made mistakes in not chasing some players hard enough or putting to much faith in certain players already at the club so why can't some supporters?

Because our opinion is different than yours.

 

[Butane]

Because our opinion is different than yours.

What? That reply doesn't even make any sense.

Just to reiterate, my opinion is the list management is lopsided and unbalanced and I don't believe it's purely because of the state of the list finalized in November 2010.

 

[Butane]

Didn't we lose against Melbourne last year? Did anyone chuck their membership cards in the microwave after that happened?

This was the actually the worst I've ever felt leaving a game. My old man and me just left shaking our heads, we weren't even angry, we were beyond that. That was the lowest ebb the Dogs have hit both statistically and emotionally since Peter Rhode's wooden spoon year. But that was a year ago now and we've been much better since if you don't include the following week against GWS. Since then though the graph has been going up.

And of course I didn't put my membership in the microwave. Wouldn't surprise me though if some did.

 

[DexterTan]

Oh No! Macca has the full support of the President! Looks like Gordo's been listening to the majority of bulldog supporters. Macca will get the sack for sure.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/we...to-smaller-clubs/story-fndv8weh-1226907968221

 

[True Dog]

I'm not overly concerned with how we're travelling. The fact we could have and most likely should have picked up a few more wins shows we are not far away. In fact I liken the way we played the last two weeks to the that period last year just before we went on our winning spree... I concede it could go either way from here but I'm still confident it will click into place.

My main gripe is to do with match committee and team selection. I know we've been a little hamstrung with a couple of key backs not being available however I've felt we've lacked structure at times. Team selection (IMO) has caused some interesting positional moves in some areas and prevented some in others..

 

[Butane]

I'm not overly concerned with how we're travelling. The fact we could have and most likely should have picked up a few more wins shows we are not far away. In fact I liken the way we played the last two weeks to the that period last year just before we went on our winning spree... I concede it could go either way from here but I'm still confident it will click into place.

My main gripe is to do with match committee and team selection. I know we've been a little hamstrung with a couple of key backs not being available however I've felt we've lacked structure at times. Team selection (IMO) has caused some interesting positional moves in some areas and prevented some in others..

I agree, I don't think we've been all that bad this year. I personally think we played better than Adelaide, Essendon and maybe even North which is fantastic but I think we've lost the game in the coaches box or at the selection table. That's the annoying part! I also think there is a chance the coaches will learn from this and when they click the players will get the wins they've deserved.

 

[lachy]

What? That reply doesn't even make any sense.

Just to reiterate, my opinion is the list management is lopsided and unbalanced and I don't believe it's purely because of the state of the list finalized in November 2010.

Fully agree Butane.
Since the 2009 draft there have been 37 players rookied or drafted by the club. The following are genuine KPP's, not Ruck/forwards or tall mids who can fill in, genuine spine players:
2011 Tallia and Roberts (Redpath)
2010 Tom Hill
2009 Markovic

Thats it. I saw on another thread GrandBlue went through drafting in this period which showed just over a 20% success rate. Rightly some questionned what else was available, however given outside of the first 2 round picks it is a lottery what the hell have we been doing. No wonder people are up in arms when Tallia and Roberts are not picked. They may not be that good but they are the only genuine KPP's drafted in the first place. We have 6 in total on our entire list, 6 and 3 of them were picked up in 2011.

It is hard to trade for KPP's, but surely the drafting policy has to be best available for the 1st 2 rounds then needs basis thereafter given the variation after the first 2 rounds in terms of ability is minimal. And when we have a massive shortfall of KPP's all rookie spots should be occupied by this type of player until we have a critical mass with developing players coming through.

Yes we have a lot of good young talent, but I don't care how good or bad McCartney may be as a game day coach, and whilst I rate him as a development coach, it is not the coaching that is our issue it is our list management that requires a massive overhaul or no matter how good a coach McCartney is, he is going to have bigger issues than Eade in finals with a massive death of KPP's and developing KPP's.

This team list WILL NOT genuinely challange in the next 3 years and never will until it has a critical mass of KPP's, so this thread can continue for another 200 pages and those for and against McCartney will have the same arguments for ever, but we will never have the cattle until our recrur recruiting and list management ius sorted out. Incedetally this is not controlled by the coach, he merely advises a wish list

 

[Wilfork]

Oh No! Macca has the full support of the President! Looks like Gordo's been listening to the majority of bulldog supporters. Macca will get the sack for sure.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-president-peter-gordon-hopes-afl-gives-good-friday-football-to-smaller-clubs/story-fndv8weh-1226907968221

Yes, because I certainly expect the President of a football club to throw his senior coach under a bus in the media. The bile is strong.

 

[yebiga]

This thread has degenerated into pure farce. Its singular redeeming feature is that it consistently illustrates exactly the type of knee jerk hysteria every club needs to ignore. It is this search for instant gratification which has laid low a once great club in Carlton, stumbling from coach to coach each asked to instantly win finnals and premiership cups and after 10 years of hysterical self flagellation directed against Pagan, Ratten, Fevola, Whitnall and now Malthouse it has come full circle and conceded it needs a rebuild.

And Melbourne dumped a more than competent coach in Daniher and turned against its own playing group. Having posted the worst set of results in its history, it is now onto its 4th coach in 7 years.

The important questions are
Is the coach committed and passionate, giving all he has to the team? Or is he on holiday ala blight at the saints?
Does the team respect him and are they playing with passion? Or as in Neeld has he lost them?
Are the players improving, are key players committed to the club or are they looking to jump ship?
Are the results improving?

If the above boxes are ticked then the club needs to ask itself whether the head coach has the right support around him? The right recruitment and talent identification? The right player development program? The right player fitness, recovery and conditioning? The right facilities? The right tactical support and analysis?

Now whether Macca is the messiah and going to deliver us a era of dominance is not the question. Looking for a messiah is a short cut to oblivion. The guy at the helm, at the minute, is very competent. The club is clearly attempting to give him every support. Now should his results plateau or drop he will no doubt be replaced. But if he is replaced the guy coming in will not have a basket case to repair. He will not be able to ask for a period of rebuilding because the foundation has been laid. The playing group will not become despondent because of constant chopping and changing. The change if it comes will make sense and the playing group will stay united.

Whilst it is fair to question selection and game plan this constant calling for Macca's head is in itself vandalism. Our performances have improved significantly even against sides in the 8. The 10 plus goal blow outs have disappeared. I have been frustrated with the non selection of Talia and Roberts. But blind freddy can see the competition for places in the 22 is intensifying by the game. The same Roberts who was gifted a game in his first season now has to earn a chance. The same with Smith, Wallis, Jong, Tutt, Hrovat and the list is growing.

To the drama queens - pull you head in and stopping acting like emotionally disturbed Richmond supporters.

 

[BRG93]

All that needs to be said is he has a 3 Year Deal he will last the 3 Year Deal...

So get used to it!

 

[Sharkey66]

You exaggerate. It's really no point in debating.

I'm not looking for 10 best 22 mature recruits. I'm looking for maybe one extra 1 KPP, gun or not, even a potentially good developing one. I thought about listing all of the KPP's drafted in the last 3 drafts or all of the KPP's traded in the past 3 years but I really can't be bothered. The matrix I'd have to draw to go through all of the potential scenarios of adding an extra 100K to players wage or extra draft picks we'd have to spend on them are so easily shot down that it's a futile exercise.

Fact is, after 3 years you can't be throwing around the excuse that's been out of the clubs hands. Let's be honest, Macca would even concede they've probably made mistakes in not chasing some players hard enough or putting to much faith in certain players already at the club so why can't some supporters?

You will more than likely find that any of the Quality KP players drafted in the last 3 years have all had their fate decided by 2 clubs in particular.
That is the massive concessions for the 2 expansion clubs over the last 5 years, and that is including pre-listing the best 17 year olds in the land before they even became available to be drafted.
We had Marco, Hill, Panos, and still have Cordy, and by the time it was obvious that most of these were not going to make it the Draft cupboard was bare.

 

[yebiga]

What if exercise
Imagine our senior players disappeared a month from now - no griffen, boyd, minno, cooney, murphy, picken, morris or gia and we had to play this team

Wood roughead Roberts
Higgins Tallia JJ
Macrae stringer bontempelli
Grant Crameri hunter
Cordy jones honeychurch

Campbell, liber, Dalhaus
Smith, Jong, Hrovat, Stevens - Dickson, Tutt, Prudden...

Of the top 22 listed above 16 are new to our club arriving under BMac. And all but honeychurch have seen senior football.

If we can add a couple more quality players from this years draft/trade period, I will consider The BMac era an amazing transformation surpassing anything this club has achieved in 50 years and whatever the future holds for BMac personally I will be forever a fan. Of the above 22 only 2 or 3 may not be of afl standard but this years draft trade period should fill any holes or doubts remaining.

 

[Lucky Star]

Trent85 Can you please do a graph measuring theAthenian's opinion swings in this thread?

I can guarantee the encephalogram would be the same at all times.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Wood roughead Roberts
Higgins Tallia JJ
Macrae stringer bontempelli
Grant Crameri hunter
Cordy jones honeychurch

Campbell, liber, Dalhaus
Smith, Jong, Hrovat, Stevens - Dickson, Tutt, Prudden...

Of the top 22 listed above 16 are new to our club arriving under BMac. And all but honeychurch have seen senior football.

If we can add a couple more quality players from this years draft/trade period, I will consider The BMac era an amazing transformation surpassing anything this club has achieved in 50 years and whatever the future holds for BMac personally I will be forever a fan. Of the above 22 only 2 or 3 may not be of afl standard but this years draft trade period should fill any holes or doubts remaining.

Sorry yebiga, I'm a glass half-full kind of guy, and like to think fairly balanced and even-handed, but the jury is still out on:
Roberts
JJ
Cordy
Honeychurch and Prudden (untried at AFL level)
Campbell
Jong
Tutt

Even Dickson may prove to be only best 25+ in a strong list (if we get one).

That's 8 in doubt for mine - I'm not saying they don't have talent, but just that it is unproven, or unproven consistently at AFL level. How many can we carry on the list until they are proven?

 

[1961grandfinal]

Fully agree Butane.
Since the 2009 draft there have been 37 players rookied or drafted by the club. The following are genuine KPP's, not Ruck/forwards or tall mids who can fill in, genuine spine players:
2011 Tallia and Roberts (Redpath)
2010 Tom Hill
2009 Markovic

Thats it. I saw on another thread GrandBlue went through drafting in this period which showed just over a 20% success rate. Rightly some questionned what else was available, however given outside of the first 2 round picks it is a lottery what the hell have we been doing. No wonder people are up in arms when Tallia and Roberts are not picked. They may not be that good but they are the only genuine KPP's drafted in the first place. We have 6 in total on our entire list, 6 and 3 of them were picked up in 2011.

The inability of club to see the potential of Frost, even as a rookie is very costly; under the nose of the club with its affiliate, every time i see him doing well for the pies drives home poor recruiting. Same, same with sam reid, family links mean nothing these days but to have him go through to 38 and us ignore him grates big time.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Why does the non-selection of Sam Reid bother people? He's effectively Sydney's answer to Liam Jones. Ben, that's a different story. Wish he was available at the pick we got Everitt with.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Wish he was available at the pick we got Everitt with.

Sadly, as you probably know, James Frawley and Jack Riewoldt went next two picks after Everitt, not that that helps...

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Sadly, as you probably know, James Frawley and Jack Riewoldt went next two picks after Everitt, not that that helps...

It's okay, I have ice cream and bourbon.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

It's okay, I have ice cream and bourbon.

I am at work - I have neither, thank goodness for my sunny disposition!

 

[dogsfan]

Sadly, as you probably know, James Frawley and Jack Riewoldt went next two picks after Everitt, not that that helps...

I know Jack Riewoldt would have been handy as our Full forward especially during 2008-10 but he absolutley gives me the S***s shocking negative body language and attitude that impacts badly on the club.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

I know Jack Riewoldt would have been handy as our Full forward especially during 2008-10 but he absolutley gives me the S***s shocking negative body language and attitude that impacts badly on the club.

12 of first 17 that year were talls/rucks - some failures, but a good year for talls even later in that draft.

 

[Mutt]

You exaggerate. It's really no point in debating.

I'm not looking for 10 best 22 mature recruits. I'm looking for maybe one extra 1 KPP, gun or not, even a potentially good developing one. I thought about listing all of the KPP's drafted in the last 3 drafts or all of the KPP's traded in the past 3 years but I really can't be bothered. The matrix I'd have to draw to go through all of the potential scenarios of adding an extra 100K to players wage or extra draft picks we'd have to spend on them are so easily shot down that it's a futile exercise.

Fact is, after 3 years you can't be throwing around the excuse that's been out of the clubs hands. Let's be honest, Macca would even concede they've probably made mistakes in not chasing some players hard enough or putting to much faith in certain players already at the club so why can't some supporters?

Everyone can find things that could have been done better or decisions that in hindsight were not perfect - that is true for any organisation. Some people feel good about carping on about the perceived mistakes - some accept imperfection as the norm and are more patient.

I think that McCartney has made a pretty good fist of things, especially given the poor hand he has been dealt. You and I don't have to agree about that.

 

[Bulldog Joe]

I know Jack Riewoldt would have been handy as our Full forward especially during 2008-10 but he absolutley gives me the S***s shocking negative body language and attitude that impacts badly on the club.

I often wonder about Jack Riewoldt. Perhaps Rocket vetoed him as a selection. He is Rocket's cousin.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

This thread has degenerated into pure farce.

Was it ever anything else?! 192 pages of the same arguments from both sides over and over again, and over and over again I get sucked into commenting on something that catches my eye. Which has probably been discussed 47 pages ago, but I can't be bothered checking.

Help!!!

 

[Morris Major]

Was it ever anything else?! 192 pages of the same arguments from both sides over and over again, and over and over again I get sucked into commenting on something that catches my eye. Which has probably been discussed 47 pages ago, but I can't be bothered checking.

Help!!!

-BM can't coach, it's obviously because we've had stuff all wins.
-We're going to come good, just watch.
-Fence sitting

multiply those 3 sentences by 192 pages