Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Footy Smarts]

I posted a number of times here earlier in the year when things were really bad with injuries and uncompetitive performances. I actually suggested that if you got your best team on the park you should be looking at 6-7 wins and if things go right maybe up to 9. At the time that seemed fantasy but the last 3 performances show you're not that bad a side. Beating StKilda and Port with players missing shouldn't be underestimated. Then on the weekend you pushed Collingwood reasonably close with very little impact from senior players bar Griffen. You've got 11 games left, 3 of which you'll go in to as favourites (Melb x2 and GWS). Then you've got a bunch of other games as underdogs where you'd have to be considered an outside chance (Rich, WC, Ess and Adel at home and Carl and Bris away). Really only Hawthorn and Sydney are almost impossible to see a win.

So from here I think a realistic expectation would be 7 games won. Then being competitive in a bunch of others and really you've had a pretty reasonable year. That far exceeds expectations at the start of the year but also far exceeds what most supporters thought early on. It would be a pretty major turn around and shows McCartney's on the right track.

The funny thing is that even with the mistakes of the recent past, we still performed so much better than we have under McCartney, which suggests to me he is making a lot more mistakes than his predecessor. I don't buy the "blame the playing list" excuse. It simply doesn't add up, not only because the list hasn't changed enough to justify the fall in team performance, but also because McCartney has been the one making those changes.

While I'm here I couldn't let this one go through to the keeper. Here's every player who played a prelim from 2008-2010 for you blokes and whether they're still playing or not:

Still Playing at the Bulldogs:
Boyd*
Giansiracusa*
Murphy
Griffen
Cooney*
Minson
Morris*
Addison
Cross*
Higgins*
Williams*
Grant*
Picken

* Either not playing or playing at much reduced output due to age or injury.
Not on the Bulldogs' list:
Gilbee
Callan
Lake
Eagleton
Hargraeve
Johnson
Harbrow
Akermanis
Tiller
Hahn
Hudson
Hill
Welsh
Ward
Hall

So 28 players were played across the 3 prelims. 15 of them are gone, 3 of them are giving significantly less output due to age (Giansiracusa, Cross and Boyd), 4 of them have had horror injuries and are significantly reduced output (Higgins, Williams, Cooney and Morris) and 1 has seriously falen away in form (Grant).

So that leaves 5 of 28 who are playing at a similar level to what they were. Of those Addison and Picken are no more than honest. So really McCartney's got 3 better than average players left (who are still playing at that level) from the prelim sides in Minson, Griffen and Murphy.

If that turnover isn't enough to be a cause of the drop in team performance what type of turnover would be?

You also said that it was McCartney making those changes but if you look through the list how many could still be playing good footy at the dogs who aren't? Lake for sure. Did Hill get moved on by McCartney or was that just before he came in? What about Hudson (although surely Minson's outperforming what Hudson would've done)? Apart from that I don't see who else there is since people like Hargraeve and Gilbee were aleady struggling and would be almost 32 now.

Do you really not see that the list has turned over massively and most of that has been due to players getting older rather than McCartney deciding to get rid of good players?

 

[josh the gent]

I posted a number of times here earlier in the year when things were really bad with injuries and uncompetitive performances. I actually suggested that if you got your best team on the park you should be looking at 6-7 wins and if things go right maybe up to 9. At the time that seemed fantasy but the last 3 performances show you're not that bad a side. Beating StKilda and Port with players missing shouldn't be underestimated. Then on the weekend you pushed Collingwood reasonably close with very little impact from senior players bar Griffen. You've got 11 games left, 3 of which you'll go in to as favourites (Melb x2 and GWS). Then you've got a bunch of other games as underdogs where you'd have to be considered an outside chance (Rich, WC, Ess and Adel at home and Carl and Bris away). Really only Hawthorn and Sydney are almost impossible to see a win.

So from here I think a realistic expectation would be 7 games won. Then being competitive in a bunch of others and really you've had a pretty reasonable year. That far exceeds expectations at the start of the year but also far exceeds what most supporters thought early on. It would be a pretty major turn around and shows McCartney's on the right track.



While I'm here I couldn't let this one go through to the keeper. Here's every player who played a prelim from 2008-2010 for you blokes and whether they're still playing or not:

Still Playing at the Bulldogs:
Boyd*
Giansiracusa*
Murphy
Griffen
Cooney*
Minson
Morris*
Addison
Cross*
Higgins*
Williams*
Grant*
Picken

* Either not playing or playing at much reduced output due to age or injury.
Not on the Bulldogs' list:
Gilbee
Callan
Lake
Eagleton
Hargraeve
Johnson
Harbrow
Akermanis
Tiller
Hahn
Hudson
Hill
Welsh
Ward
Hall

So 28 players were played across the 3 prelims. 15 of them are gone, 3 of them are giving significantly less output due to age (Giansiracusa, Cross and Boyd), 4 of them have had horror injuries and are significantly reduced output (Higgins, Williams, Cooney and Morris) and 1 has seriously falen away in form (Grant).

So that leaves 5 of 28 who are playing at a similar level to what they were. Of those Addison and Picken are no more than honest. So really McCartney's got 3 better than average players left (who are still playing at that level) from the prelim sides in Minson, Griffen and Murphy.

If that turnover isn't enough to be a cause of the drop in team performance what type of turnover would be?

You also said that it was McCartney making those changes but if you look through the list how many could still be playing good footy at the dogs who aren't? Lake for sure. Did Hill get moved on by McCartney or was that just before he came in? What about Hudson (although surely Minson's outperforming what Hudson would've done)? Apart from that I don't see who else there is since people like Hargraeve and Gilbee were aleady struggling and would be almost 32 now.

Do you really not see that the list has turned over massively and most of that has been due to players getting older rather than McCartney deciding to get rid of good players?

Really great post.

 

[TedDougChris]

Do you really not see that the list has turned over massively and most of that has been due to players getting older rather than McCartney deciding to get rid of good players?

Yeah but those stats dont suit the views of the Macca out crowd, so they aren't relevant....

Good post but......

 

[Chris Grant]

Great post Footy Smarts.

The fact that we drafted poorly and traded in duds like Sherman, Vez and DJ didn't help either.

It drives me mad that supporters can't see that McCartney inherited one of the worst lists in the comp.

 

[gimp!]

Footy Smarts, great post, but this thread is on its 4th or 5th cycle now, of the exact same arguments with the same people failing to acknowledge the list situation.

 

[timtamWB]

One additional point to that topic of debate, speaking to Christian Howard at the player sponsor night last week he said that he was find it challenging to adapt to the McCartney game plan. He also stated that when he was drafted under Eade, his game style was quite different from what McCartney has asked of him.

I think this is why guys like Vez, Tutt, Grant, possibly Pearce are on the outer. Howard I think is slowly adapting and getting an inside game to complement his outside game. But I think guys like Tutt and Grant can't adapt to Macca's game plan and so are getting phased out.

 

[DogDays]

I posted a number of times here earlier in the year when things were really bad with injuries and uncompetitive performances. I actually suggested that if you got your best team on the park you should be looking at 6-7 wins and if things go right maybe up to 9. At the time that seemed fantasy but the last 3 performances show you're not that bad a side. Beating StKilda and Port with players missing shouldn't be underestimated. Then on the weekend you pushed Collingwood reasonably close with very little impact from senior players bar Griffen. You've got 11 games left, 3 of which you'll go in to as favourites (Melb x2 and GWS). Then you've got a bunch of other games as underdogs where you'd have to be considered an outside chance (Rich, WC, Ess and Adel at home and Carl and Bris away). Really only Hawthorn and Sydney are almost impossible to see a win.

So from here I think a realistic expectation would be 7 games won. Then being competitive in a bunch of others and really you've had a pretty reasonable year. That far exceeds expectations at the start of the year but also far exceeds what most supporters thought early on. It would be a pretty major turn around and shows McCartney's on the right track.



While I'm here I couldn't let this one go through to the keeper. Here's every player who played a prelim from 2008-2010 for you blokes and whether they're still playing or not:

Still Playing at the Bulldogs:
Boyd*
Giansiracusa*
Murphy
Griffen
Cooney*
Minson
Morris*
Addison
Cross*
Higgins*
Williams*
Grant*
Picken

* Either not playing or playing at much reduced output due to age or injury.
Not on the Bulldogs' list:
Gilbee
Callan
Lake
Eagleton
Hargraeve
Johnson
Harbrow
Akermanis
Tiller
Hahn
Hudson
Hill
Welsh
Ward
Hall

So 28 players were played across the 3 prelims. 15 of them are gone, 3 of them are giving significantly less output due to age (Giansiracusa, Cross and Boyd), 4 of them have had horror injuries and are significantly reduced output (Higgins, Williams, Cooney and Morris) and 1 has seriously falen away in form (Grant).

So that leaves 5 of 28 who are playing at a similar level to what they were. Of those Addison and Picken are no more than honest. So really McCartney's got 3 better than average players left (who are still playing at that level) from the prelim sides in Minson, Griffen and Murphy.

If that turnover isn't enough to be a cause of the drop in team performance what type of turnover would be?

You also said that it was McCartney making those changes but if you look through the list how many could still be playing good footy at the dogs who aren't? Lake for sure. Did Hill get moved on by McCartney or was that just before he came in? What about Hudson (although surely Minson's outperforming what Hudson would've done)? Apart from that I don't see who else there is since people like Hargraeve and Gilbee were aleady struggling and would be almost 32 now.

Do you really not see that the list has turned over massively and most of that has been due to players getting older rather than McCartney deciding to get rid of good players?

Here that.....

That's the sound of the anti-McCartney people's response.

 

[Claudonious]

Mike, he's saying that Griffen was a great player 2 years ago AND now - i.e. you can't attribute Griff's performances to BMac. On that point I agree with him.

I think Griffen was great a few years back, but he has gone up a level this year and last.He has added the ability to break a tag and is now a contested ball monster. He has clearly improved since BMac has arrived - not suggesting that this is entirely due to BMac, but he has gone up a notch

 

[Claudonious]

These numbers speak for themselves - Griff has been a more complete player in the last 2 years:

2010 2011 2012 2013
Contested Possessions 7.5 9.8 11.6 13.7
Disposals 23.9 24 26.9 28.1
Contested Ball % 31.38% 40.83% 43.12% 48.75%
Tackles 3.2 4.6 4.3 4.8
Stoppages 1.9 2.4 2.8 3.2
Clearances 2.8 3.9 4.9 6.1
1% ERS 1.5 2.1 1.5 2.6
Goals 1 1.1 0.4 0.9

 

[dogsofwar]

deleted thread

You're entitled to your views. But can you please be reasonable in your assessments? Passive aggressive remarks don't really help you support your points.

Sorry mods if it's not my place to respond to trolling. I should ignore. But we're all here supporting the same team, and while opinions do vary wildly, certainly it can't hurt to listen to somebody's points and see their merit? While there may be disagreement, an attempt at seeing other views and at least attempting to see positives surely can't be so hard?

 

[Proffessor]

One additional point to that topic of debate, speaking to Christian Howard at the player sponsor night last week he said that he was find it challenging to adapt to the McCartney game plan. He also stated that when he was drafted under Eade, his game style was quite different from what McCartney has asked of him.

Interesting. Did he give you any indication of why it is so challenging to adapt to?

What does that make you question more, the players abilities or the coaches approach?

IMO game plans really shouldn't be so complex or difficult that professional sports people struggle to follow it. The more complicated the strategy, the more likely it is to break down in the heat of a pressure game. Another potential reason that players might be struggling to adapt is that they don't really believe that the strategy will be effective.

 

[gimp!]

IMO game plans really shouldn't be so complex or difficult that professional sports people struggle to follow it.

It's not a struggle to follow it, it's the process of adapting to EXECUTE it... because of the cattle... a point which you completely ignored again. LOL.

The more complicated the strategy, the more likely it is to break down in the heat of a pressure game. Another potential reason that players might be struggling to adapt is that they don't really believe that the strategy will be effective.

Oh, you mean how when Rocket's high scoring gameplan failed us in prelims where we struggled to kick 8-10 goals?
Haha. Macca's gameplan is BASED on winning finals, and premierships. Something we haven't done since 1954.
"they don't really believe that the strategy will be effective." LOL. Yes, let's us, a playing group who has achieved NOTHING, question a coach who was a huge factor in putting together a dynasty.

 

[Chris Grant]

Is the gameplan overly complex or is it just Howard?

I heard a story about Howard. It was in Rocket's last year when Howard was playing for Williamstown. Mich Hahn and German basically had to hand feed him, tell him where to run to, what to do. By the end of the day they were yelling at him because he still didn't get it. The next week they didn't yell at him, but pretty much the same thing happened. He's a slow learner and has very little understanding.

Macrae and Stringer have been here for two minutes. They at least look like they have an idea of what McCartney's gameplan is because they have an understanding of the game. Howard has no idea, I'm not surprised he's struggled.

The other thing is, Rocket had an out dated gameplan. Footy had evolved so much. Rocket and the coaching staff we're well behind the times so it's not surprising to hear the game plan has changed so much.

 

[Some Idiot]

Is the gameplan overly complex or is it just Howard?

I heard a story about Howard. It was in Rocket's last year when Howard was playing for Williamstown. Mich Hahn and German basically had to hand feed him, tell him where to run to, what to do. By the end of the day they were yelling at him because he still didn't get it. The next week they didn't yell at him, but pretty much the same thing happened. He's a slow learner and has very little understanding.

Macrae and Stringer have been here for two minutes. They at least look like they have an idea of what McCartney's gameplan is because they have an understanding of the game. Howard has no idea, I'm not surprised he's struggled.

The other thing is, Rocket had an out dated gameplan. Footy had evolved so much. Rocket and the coaching staff we're well behind the times so it's not surprising to hear the game plan has changed so much.

This would make a lot of sense. Would explain why Howard, who is a very professional trainer and endurance athlete and good kick when his confidence is high is just taking a little longer to come on than the club perhaps hoped.

 

[_Mike_]

Heed this warning all.. Any continuation of baiting/trolling in this thread will see you banned from contributing to it. Continue and you'll be taking a short vacation to consider your behaviour.

 

[_Mike_]

Interesting. Did he give you any indication of why it is so challenging to adapt to?

What does that make you question more, the players abilities or the coaches approach?

IMO game plans really shouldn't be so complex or difficult that professional sports people struggle to follow it. The more complicated the strategy, the more likely it is to break down in the heat of a pressure game. Another potential reason that players might be struggling to adapt is that they don't really believe that the strategy will be effective.

I would have to take a look at the coaches approach to a particular player's strengths and weaknesses. Some players may just not be suited to McCartney's grand scheme and they may end up falling by the wayside.

As for whether or not the players believe that the McCartney plan will work or not, maybe they question their own plans for their football future and whether or not that fits in with how McCartney wants them to play.

 

[staphy]

I posted a number of times here earlier in the year when things were really bad with injuries and uncompetitive performances. I actually suggested that if you got your best team on the park you should be looking at 6-7 wins and if things go right maybe up to 9. At the time that seemed fantasy but the last 3 performances show you're not that bad a side. Beating StKilda and Port with players missing shouldn't be underestimated. Then on the weekend you pushed Collingwood reasonably close with very little impact from senior players bar Griffen. You've got 11 games left, 3 of which you'll go in to as favourites (Melb x2 and GWS). Then you've got a bunch of other games as underdogs where you'd have to be considered an outside chance (Rich, WC, Ess and Adel at home and Carl and Bris away). Really only Hawthorn and Sydney are almost impossible to see a win.

So from here I think a realistic expectation would be 7 games won. Then being competitive in a bunch of others and really you've had a pretty reasonable year. That far exceeds expectations at the start of the year but also far exceeds what most supporters thought early on. It would be a pretty major turn around and shows McCartney's on the right track.



While I'm here I couldn't let this one go through to the keeper. Here's every player who played a prelim from 2008-2010 for you blokes and whether they're still playing or not:

Still Playing at the Bulldogs:
Boyd*
Giansiracusa*
Murphy
Griffen
Cooney*
Minson
Morris*
Addison
Cross*
Higgins*
Williams*
Grant*
Picken

* Either not playing or playing at much reduced output due to age or injury.
Not on the Bulldogs' list:
Gilbee
Callan
Lake
Eagleton
Hargraeve
Johnson
Harbrow
Akermanis
Tiller
Hahn
Hudson
Hill
Welsh
Ward
Hall

So 28 players were played across the 3 prelims. 15 of them are gone, 3 of them are giving significantly less output due to age (Giansiracusa, Cross and Boyd), 4 of them have had horror injuries and are significantly reduced output (Higgins, Williams, Cooney and Morris) and 1 has seriously falen away in form (Grant).

So that leaves 5 of 28 who are playing at a similar level to what they were. Of those Addison and Picken are no more than honest. So really McCartney's got 3 better than average players left (who are still playing at that level) from the prelim sides in Minson, Griffen and Murphy.

If that turnover isn't enough to be a cause of the drop in team performance what type of turnover would be?

You also said that it was McCartney making those changes but if you look through the list how many could still be playing good footy at the dogs who aren't? Lake for sure. Did Hill get moved on by McCartney or was that just before he came in? What about Hudson (although surely Minson's outperforming what Hudson would've done)? Apart from that I don't see who else there is since people like Hargraeve and Gilbee were aleady struggling and would be almost 32 now.

Do you really not see that the list has turned over massively and most of that has been due to players getting older rather than McCartney deciding to get rid of good players?

Shouldn't you be red carded for coming over to our board and making this much sense

 

[nashhh]

I believe macca has helped Griffen with his contested side of his game this is why we are seeing consistency in his game hard to tag someone who gets his own ball! Also you can see the improvement of our young bloke like jj how goods his year been

 

[ErnieSigley]

Shouldn't you be red carded for coming over to our board and making this much sense

What sense? We weren't reasonably close to Collingwood. We were never in that game.

 

[Igloo]

What sense? We weren't reasonably close to Collingwood. We were never in that game.

This is why no one respects your opinion. Instead of identifying the whole point of the post and talking about that, you get on one tiny sentence you disagree with, and keep at it until the discussion passes.

 

[ErnieSigley]

It's not a struggle to follow it, it's the process of adapting to EXECUTE it... because of the cattle... a point which you completely ignored again. LOL.


Oh, you mean how when Rocket's high scoring gameplan failed us in prelims where we struggled to kick 8-10 goals?
Haha. Macca's gameplan is BASED on winning finals, and premierships. Something we haven't done since 1954.
"they don't really believe that the strategy will be effective." LOL. Yes, let's us, a playing group who has achieved NOTHING, question a coach who was a huge factor in putting together a dynasty.

How can we win finals if when never get there under this coach and his game plan.
Btw we have won finals since 1954.

 

[ErnieSigley]

This is why no one respects your opinion. Instead of identifying the whole point of the post and talking about that, you get on one tiny sentence you disagree with, and keep at it until the discussion passes.

Yes its so important for me to get your respect.
It's you that wants me to automatically respect other opinions.
Why should I finish reading let only respect such a long winded post when the poster is a pretend doggies fan then adds tripe like reasonably close in.

 

[Igloo]

Yes its so important for me to get your respect.
It's you that wants me to automatically respect other opinions.
Why should I finish reading let only respect such a long winded post when the poster is a pretend doggies fan then adds tripe like reasonably close in.

So you didn't even read the whole post?
This is a board for discussion. You respect everyones opinion, whether you agree with it or not.
The things that you post, like not even reading the whole post (which sucks for you, because it was well researched, and proved a good point) and disregarding anything you don't agree with is why you piss so many people off.

 

[ErnieSigley]

So you didn't even read the whole post?
This is a board for discussion. You respect everyones opinion, whether you agree with it or not.
The things that you post, like not even reading the whole post (which sucks for you, because it was well researched, and proved a good point) and disregarding anything you don't agree with is why you piss so many people off.

No didnt read it all for the 3rd time.
I'm suppose to go through it all even though its by Geelong fan that by stating we were reasonably close obviously knows little of our matches? Poorly researched, not well researched.
Not my fault many here like to be in the dream world where everything is rosy when it actually isn't. I'll be upset to if I was blind to it.
Sorry the respect word I used was bad choice, give it any time was better.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Yes its so important for me to get your respect.
It's you that wants me to automatically respect other opinions.
Why should I finish reading let only respect such a long winded post when the poster is a pretend doggies fan then adds tripe like reasonably close in.

Don't worry I'm not a doggies fan pretend or otherwise. Ok maybe just for tonight. Everyone likes seeing the tiger bandwagon come crashing to a halt...again. If you don't want McCartney I'm happy for us to take him back. Maybe you could send Stringer and Macrae with him?