List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 5

[RJK Tiger]

It's quite simple some clubs understand how to use the cap as a tool to be able to recruit top end talent when they want to and they don't get held to ransom by players who demand big money to stick around because they're scared they'll lose them for nothing.

Sides like Gold Coast and GWS dig a hole for themselves because they pay average players, elite player contracts just to remain at the club longer than their first contract. I know for a fact that a GWS player was paid well over what he was worth to sign an extension when he wanted to return to Melbourne. His manager rightly advised him to remain in Sydney and cash in because he wasn't going to get the same level of money to return to Meolbourne as he hadn't quite established himself. So he stayed and then when he had finished the stint he returned to Melbourne got paid a little less than GWS were paying but it didn't really matter as he was already set up for life with a house and investments.

GWS are paying the price now because they thought they were going to remain a contender so had all their big names signed up to big money deals and they either keep them and let younger talent go or they let a few of the older guys go along with a few younger guys not worth overpaying for and get their cap back under control. Gold Coast are screwed because they were given concessions to sign extra players to try and climb of the bottom and while they've done that, they've also paid well over the odds to keep that list together and now they find themselves on the brink of success but needing to hold a firesale to get their cap back under control. IMO they are going about it the right way, they are flogging off players who aren't seen as being part of their long term future, but still have some value at the trade table, albeit, they need to sell off good picks along the way, but what they'll end up with is a list that wants to be on the Gold Coast not because they're getting overpaid, but because they believe they are good enough to be contenders for the finals.

Meanwhile, clubs like us and Geelong have played the system well. We don't overpay for anyone we want to bring in/retain. It's well known that both Lynch and Martin left money on the table when they signed/re-signed with us as to have a number of other players, while those who weren't prepared to take a fair deal were allowed to move on to newer pastures with our blessing. It is this sort of balanced approach that sees us in the position we are now where we'll bring in 2 guns, while retaining everyone we want to retain. Sure we might lose a player or 2 the other way because of greater opportunity/contracts, but on the balance of things we will come out ahead this year and will be well placed for the future.

Thats all obvious but i dont think it explains how Geelongs cap has worked for the last 15 years.


If they have done it all legally, then well done to them .They are by far the best at it then, far better than us. Can't imagine them giving Hopper & Taranto 7 year deals just to get them on the dotted line. Actually sounds the opposite to what you just wrote They got Cameron at 5 years / $900k. That is a legit bargain compared to what we are offering Taranto & Hopper.

I would take Cameron over both those 2 combined.

 

[RJK Tiger]

BG battled well v Giannis in post season tbf

Blake Griffin is a busted arseh*le these days.

It says something when you say he did ok against Giannis while he still Avg 32 points and 13 rebounds for the series, won the series, won the finals and won the finals MVP.

Blake was a DNP this year in the finals sweep & his time in Detroit outside of his first season was a disaster. The dude can ball, but hid body was so clearly rooted that the move immediately looked terrible. & it was.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Blake Griffin is a busted arseh*le.

It says something when you say he did ok against Giannis while he still Avg 32 points and 13 rebounds a game, won the series, won the finals and won the finals MVP.

Blake was a DNP this year in the finals sweep & his time in Detroit outside of his first season was a disaster. The dude can ball, but hid body was so clearly rooted that the move immediately looked terrible. & it was.

Would have averaged 45 if Blake wasn't there.

Kawhi won that season iirc.

Agree that NBA style public contracts would be a better idea for footy

 

[RJK Tiger]

Would have averaged 45 if Blake wasn't there.

Kawhi won that season iirc

Nah im talking about 2021 when he was on the Nets V the Bucks.

You are talking about 2019. Giannis was still getting his groove. Griffins first year at Detroit was decent & was enough to scrape them into the 8 seed, but it was clear as day that his contract was awful & when they traded for it, everyone could see a mile out it would end in tears. And it did. They got 1 good year out of him before his body shit the bed & they had to trade out picks to salary dump him

 

[Marcel Proust]

Nah im talking about 2021 when he was on the Nets V the Bucks.

You are talking about 2019. Giannis was still getting his groove. Griffins first year at Detroit was decent & was enough to scrape them into the 8 seed, but it was clear as day that his contract was awful & when they traded for it, everyone could see a mile out it would end in tears. And it did. They got 1 good year out of him before his body s**t the bed & they had to trade out picks to salary dump him

Oh ok I didn't know we were jumping ahead a couple years.

How many year contract do you think geelong offered hopper?

 

[Calcium Man]

“Dumb suggestion” bit unwarranted, just my opinion.

It was dumb and I stand by it.

Not saying Narkle and Stocker will be competing with Hopper and Taranto but would they offer more than Martyn, Aarts, Castagna ( and RCD and Stack if they are moved on by the club) in the list for no trade consequences especially if we get reamed and don’t have any other pick than 84?

I’m not sure where I said or implied you said Narkle/Stocker are competing Hopper/Taranto? They’re obviously not, as you say.

But the others you have listed will all be delisted this year or next, depending on contracts. They’re occupying bottom of the list spots.

RCD might turn it around but it’s his last year and you want to put two more list cloggers in his road.

Look at how deep our list is, only 4 or 5 of Graham/Baker/Sonsie/Gibcus/Short/baker/MJ/Cumbers/Ross/Broad will be in our best 22.

If Stocker and Narkle are not coming in to challenge for our best 22 and don’t have much room for development what is the point of putting them on our list? I guess they could help out our VFL team.

As for delisted players going okay Peter Bell, Brett Kirk, Andrew Krakouer ......

naming players as far back as Peter Bell, wow you found 5 successes in about a 25 year time period. That’s one every 5 years, and how many guys been delisted in the same period?

Conversely we use the list spot on a rookie or someone from state leagues we have increased odds of finding some who’ll make our best 22 in the future.

Plus this player doesn’t get between Banks/Browne//Clarke and the first team, if they’re a rookie, but slots in behind them in development.

Man, don't count chickens before they hatch.

This you? Suggesting that pick 7 will be as good as Jacob hopper? At least mine has made an overage AA squad.

I mean, Jacob Hopper was once a pick 7. Would you rather get him as a rookie by taking on a big contract for just 2 years?

Hopper & Taranto could be duds with us - it happens. Some of our best pick ups have been blokes like Toby, Grigg, Houli - they were not meant to be the keys to a premiership.

I’m not sure what your point is here? What do delisted players have to do with players our list managers, you know the guys trying to get Hopper and Taranto, have specifically targeted.

And I’m 100% sure they were targeted by that list management team to be part of premiership team. It’s just that most of us (including me at end of 2016) didn’t think that’d be true.

As i've said before, there are quite a lot of GWS players that have struggled to maintain their form in the big smoke (melb)

If we remove the junk trades I.e anything carlton or hawthorn picked up from GWS, there are like 5 trades/moves from GWS to Victoria equivalent to the expectations of Taranto and Hopper.

Treloar - gun, maybe can’t kick but still was probably worth what collingwood paid until they collingwooded up their cap

Cameron - gun

Smith - was great for Essendon until injuries ruined him.

Shiel - meh, but I think he was meh when he left GWS

Williams - he was a HBF that Carlton dreamed was an inside mid. Most people thought they overpaid at the time. Really only in this list because how much money they’re paying him.

Look at Stengle vs Fantasia for example. Fantasia was the "big name" small forward recruit and he couldn't get on the park - Stengle was the flyer who is now a 50+ goal Premiership player with AA honours.

I can also provide a single isolated incident of signing a “big name” working out vs a delisted player. Take the case of Aaron mullet delisted by north picked up by Carlton vs Dangerfield. Muller played 13 games, Dangerfield is now a brownlow medalist, multiple AA player and () premiership player.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

get back bellis for peanuts

What about Mrakov?

Farkov

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

Listened to this rubbish for 10 minutes today and heard a recording of Lloyd saying Lachie Hunter would attract very little interest from other clubs; they then remind Silvagni that he reckoned Hunter was worth a first rounder.

“Well, at his best…..admittedly, I haven’t seen much of the Bulldogs this year…”

Quality broadcasting.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

It keeps coming.

 

[RJK Tiger]

It was dumb and I stand by it.



I’m not sure where I said or implied you said Narkle/Stocker are competing Hopper/Taranto? They’re obviously not, as you say.

But the others you have listed will all be delisted this year or next, depending on contracts. They’re occupying bottom of the list spots.

RCD might turn it around but it’s his last year and you want to put two more list cloggers in his road.

Look at how deep our list is, only 4 or 5 of Graham/Baker/Sonsie/Gibcus/Short/baker/MJ/Cumbers/Ross/Broad will be in our best 22.

If Stocker and Narkle are not coming in to challenge for our best 22 and don’t have much room for development what is the point of putting them on our list? I guess they could help out our VFL team.



naming players as far back as Peter Bell, wow you found 5 successes in about a 25 year time period. That’s one every 5 years, and how many guys been delisted in the same period?

Conversely we use the list spot on a rookie or someone from state leagues we have increased odds of finding some who’ll make our best 22 in the future.

Plus this player doesn’t get between Banks/Browne//Clarke and the first team, if they’re a rookie, but slots in behind them in development.



This you? Suggesting that pick 7 will be as good as Jacob hopper? At least mine has made an overage AA squad.





I’m not sure what your point is here? What do delisted players have to do with players our list managers, you know the guys trying to get Hopper and Taranto, have specifically targeted.

And I’m 100% sure they were targeted by that list management team to be part of premiership team. It’s just that most of us (including me at end of 2016) didn’t think that’d be true.



If we remove the junk trades I.e anything carlton or hawthorn picked up from GWS, there are like 5 trades/moves from GWS to Victoria equivalent to the expectations of Taranto and Hopper.

Treloar - gun, maybe can’t kick but still was probably worth what collingwood paid until they collingwooded up their cap

Cameron - gun

Smith - was great for Essendon until injuries ruined him.

Shiel - meh, but I think he was meh when he left GWS

Williams - he was a HBF that Carlton dreamed was an inside mid. Most people thought they overpaid at the time. Really only in this list because how much money they’re paying him.



I can also provide a single isolated incident of signing a “big name” working out vs a delisted player. Take the case of Aaron mullet delisted by north picked up by Carlton vs Dangerfield. Muller played 13 games, Dangerfield is now a brownlow medalist, multiple AA player and () premiership player.

When you sign Pick 7, you are taking a 2 year risk on them with low financial cost.

When, you are paying 2 players 5 million over 7 years each, the risk is undoubtedly a lot higher. One serious injury in their first 2 years and you are stuck with a extremely expensive potato on your list for 5 years. Look at Grundy & Treloar - they looked well and truely worth the risk of their contracts at the time, but both will be moved on for pennies on the dollar.

in the NBA, 7 year contracts are illegal because so many clubs destroyed themselves with longer ones. They can only offer 4-5 year, at most. Even at 5 years, those contracts often end up being the ones the team has to bundle with first rounders like GC are doing right not to move on

Sure there is a risk that at pick 7 you end up a dud, but it & the few picks after it have also been one of the most successful picks in draft history with the likes of Selwood, J.Lewis, Naughton, Bailey Smith - loads of talent im around that pick in history.

People need to remember also, we are not married to having to take both GWS guys - we could take the cheaper or more required of the 2, then take Bowes and use the money we were spending on the 2nd GWS kid on Bowes + pick 7

So then we trade maybe Pick 12 + Soldo, get Taranto. Then the money we were going to spend on Hopper we pay to Bowes, who contract is a 150k a season more than what we are offering, but also get pick 7

So essentially we get Taranto, Bowes & upgrade pick 12 to 7, and only lose Soldo.

If we think Hopper is actually the more required player here despite his trade cost likely to be a bit less, we might even up getting him, Bowes & heading into this years draft with pick 7 & 12, while trading out 19 + Soldo

The money we were using on Taranto & Soldo more than covers Bowes contract, which in 2 years time becomes a massive $850k space in our cap to chase the top Free Agent with

Also, a lot of people think us offering these guys 7 years is overpaying too. Its a insanely long contract. To give 2 of them at the same time is pretty wild

 

[Marcel Proust]

When you sign Pick 7, you are taking a 2 year risk on them with low financial cost.

When, you are paying 2 players 5 million over 7 years each, the risk is undoubtedly a lot higher. One serious injury in their first 2 years and you are stuck with a extremely expensive potato on your list for 5 years. Look at Grundy & Treloar - they looked well and truely worth the risk of their contracts at the time, but both will be moved on for pennies on the dollar.

in the NBA, 7 year contracts are illegal because so many clubs destroyed themselves with longer ones. They can only offer 4-5 year, at most. Even at 5 years, those contracts often end up being the ones the team has to bundle with first rounders like GC are doing right not to move on

Sure there is a risk that at pick 7 you end up a dud, but it & the few picks after it have also been one of the most successful picks in draft history with the likes of Selwood, J.Lewis, Naughton, Bailey Smith - loads of talent im around that pick in history.

People need to remember also, we are not married to having to take both GWS guys - we could take the cheaper or more required of the 2, then take Bowes and use the money we were spending on the 2nd GWS kid on Bowes + pick 7

So then we trade maybe Pick 12 + Soldo, get Taranto. Then the money we were going to spend on Hopper we pay to Bowes, who contract is a 150k a season more than what we are offering, but also get pick 7

So essentially we get Taranto, Bowes & upgrade pick 12 to 7, and only lose Soldo.

If we think Hopper is actually the more required player here despite his trade cost likely to be a bit less, we might even up getting him, Bowes & heading into this years draft with pick 7 & 12, while trading out 19 + Soldo

The money we were using on Taranto & Soldo more than covers Bowes contract, which in 2 years time becomes a massive $850k space in our cap to chase the top Free Agent with

You can trade out future draft picks forever, unlike afl.

So it's not that dissimilar

 

[RJK Tiger]

You can trade out future draft picks forever, unlike afl.

So it's not that dissimilar

Trading out future picks vs 7 year contracts are not the same thing.,

NBA teams onlly trade multiple Future 1st round picks to generally get a elite player. Kevin Durant, Kawaii Paul George, Anthony Davis - they are players that are all top 10-15 players in the league. All of them will be first ballot Hall of Famers. And as Basketball plays with only 5 players on the court for each time at a time - that 1 player represents 20% of the players on the court at all time.

Hopper & Taranto are not that level & with a team of 18 on the field their ability to directly change your fortunes is far less.

As getting Taranto & Hopper is not like us adding Anthony Davis with Lebron James, or Paul George & Kawaii. Its closer to how the Hawks added Dejounte Murray to the Hawks, or Gobert to the Timberwolves. Yeah it makes them better, but they are highly unlikely to go from 7th to 1st because of it & if it goes wrong they are completely screwed

Plus the trading of first rounders is not a "froever: thing -their are lots of restrictions around how many you can trade, following you trading them in previous years etc, Its complicated as ****, but it is clearly defined - unlike the AFLs confusing rules that usually end with a "trust us, its right" response

To put it into context, the contracts we are offering these 2 guys could potentially be like a Amare Stoudamire or Alan Houston situation. They are one serious injury or a form slump away from being impossible to move and completely limiting your cap flexibility & clubs success for half a decade.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Trading out future picks vs 7 year contracts are not the same thing.,

NBA teams onlly trade multiple Future 1st round picks to generally get a elite player. Kevin Durant, Kawaii Paul George, Anthony Davis - they are players that are all top 10-15 players in the league. All of them will be first ballot Hall of Famers. And as Basketball plays with only 5 players on the court for each time at a time - that 1 player represents 20% of the players on the court at all time.

Hopper & Taranto are not that level & with a team of 18 on the field their ability to directly change your fortunes is far less.

As getting Taranto & Hopper is not like us adding Anthony Davis with Lebron James, or Paul George & Kawaii. Its closer to how the Hawks added Dejounte Murray to the Hawks, or Gobert to the Timberwolves. Yeah it makes them better, but they are highly unlikely to go from 7th to 1st because of it & if it goes wrong they are completely screwed

Plus the trading of first rounders is not a "froever: thing -their are lots of restrictions around how many you can trade, following you trading them in previous years etc, Its complicated as *, but it is clearly defined - unlike the AFLs confusing rules that usually end with a "trust us, its right" response

To put it into context, the contracts we are offering these 2 guys could potentially be like a Michael Porter jnr of Alan Houston situation. They are one serious injury away from being impossible to move and completely limit your cap flexibility for half a decade.

More like a couple of jrue holidays.

Teams are not as protected as you make out cause they can trade out 6/7/8 years of picks (and pick swaps)

Mpj back was cooked prior to getting drafted so not a good example

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Thats all obvious but i dont think it explains how Geelongs cap has worked for the last 15 years.


If they have done it all legally, then well done to them .They are by far the best at it then, far better than us. Can't imagine them giving Hopper & Taranto 7 year deals just to get them on the dotted line. Actually sounds the opposite to what you just wrote They got Cameron at 5 years / $900k. That is a legit bargain compared to what we are offering Taranto & Hopper.

I would take Cameron over both those 2 combined.

Cameron was just beaten in a Grand Final by Robbie Fox, in a match set up so far in Cameron’s favour it is not funny. He had a decent year overall Cameron, but on $900k you would want to have one of those in you every now and then.

Cameron in 15 finals: 36 goals + goal assists, 13 disposal average, 5 contested possessions per match.

His contemporary Tom Lynch in 7 finals: 20 goals + goal assists, 13 disposal average, 7.4 contested possessions per match.

They are both the same age and their deals end at the same time and are for similar salaries. So Cameron is not an example to use if trying to show Geelong manage their cap better than Richmond, nor is he an example to use to decry 7 year deals for 25 year olds.

 

[RJK Tiger]

More like a couple of jrue holidays.

Teams are not as protected as you make out cause they can trade out 6/7/8 years of picks (and pick swaps)

Mpj back was cooked prior to getting drafted so not a good example

Mate - we are not adding these 2 to peak level Giannis with peak level middleton - we are adding them to an old man Dusty & cotchin. It would be like adding Jrue Holiday to the nets Pierce & Garnett team & expecting them to take out Lebrons big 3 in Miami. Completely different age frames here. And again, ur comparing 5 a team vs 18. U would basically need to add 2 hoppers & 2 tarantos to equate % wise what jrue alone added to the bucks.

Plus

 

[Marcel Proust]

Mate - we are not adding these 2 to peak level Giannis with peak level middleton - we are adding them to an old man Dusty & cotchin. It would be like adding Jrue Holiday to the nets Pierce & Garnett team & expecting them to take out Lebrons big 3 in Miami. Completely different age frames here. And again, ur comparing 5 a team vs 18. U would basically need to add 2 hoppers & 2 tarantos to equate % wise what jrue alone added to the bucks.

Plus

Your the one doing the basketball comparisons man.

We are also adding TT and hops to lynch. Vlastuin. Bolton etc.

Not Giannis but Richmond are closer to the warriors than Atlanta.

Curry / Klay / green = cotchin dusty grimes

Kd = lynch.

Hops and TT = Wiggins

Sonsie/ gibcus = kuminga. Moody.

Don't @ at me

 

[RJK Tiger]

Cameron was just beaten in a Grand Final by Robbie Fox, in a match set up so far in Cameron’s favour it is not funny. He had a decent year overall Cameron, but on $900k you would want to have one of those in you every now and then.

Cameron in 15 finals: 36 goals + goal assists, 13 disposal average, 5 contested possessions per match.

His contemporary Tom Lynch in 7 finals: 20 goals + goal assists, 7.4 contested possessions per match.

They are both the same age and their deals end at the same time and are for similar salaries. So Cameron is not an example to use if trying to show Geelong manage their cap better than Richmond, nor is he an example to use to decry 7 year deals for 25 year olds.

Cameron was just the leading goal kicker for his team in his 2nd year & won the GF. He didnt need to do much considering they won by 81 points

My, my - the jokes about RFC owning space in cats fans heads has turned dramatically.Cameron was a brilliant move for tge cats . He made Hawkins a total stud again. They won the flag. These are facts while ur hopes of Hopper & Taranto are pure fantasy atm.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Cameron was just the leading goal kicker for his team in his 2nd year & won the GF. He didnt need to do much considering they won by 81 points

My, my - the jokes about RFC owning space in cats fans heads has turned dramatically.Cameron was a brilliant move for tge cats . He made Hawkins a total stud again. They won the flag. These are facts while ur hopes of Hopper & Taranto are pure fantasy atm.

Cameron is a very good player. I thought the negative comments about his signing were misguided.

Everyone knows the cats won and TT/hops are not Richmond players yet.

Your posts have been somewhat spasmodic recently. I hope you are doing alright.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Cameron was just the leading goal kicker for his team in his 2nd year & won the GF. He didnt need to do much considering they won by 81 points

My, my - the jokes about RFC owning space in cats fans heads has turned dramatically.Cameron was a brilliant move for tge cats . He made Hawkins a total stud again. They won the flag. These are facts while ur hopes of Hopper & Taranto are pure fantasy atm.

Lynch was the leading goal kicker in his first year for Richmond and his team won the GF by 89 points. He has outperformed Cameron as a recruit by any fair measure but especially in finals. They are key forwards the same age on the same money, contracted to the same age and Lynch has 2 flags in the bank to Cameron 1.

If you think Cameron was a brilliant move for the Cats fair enough, but Lynch was a better one for the Tigers, especially coming at the cost of zero draft capital v Cameron for the equivalent value of about pick 2. So how you are using Cameron as evidence of the Cats recruiting or managing their cap better than Richmond is weird.

You would not have a clue what my thoughts are about the acquisition of Hopper and Taranto. But they are far more comparable to Geelong acquiring someone like Dangerfield. We need some mature big bodied mids, they are available, which is a good start. They are both decent players. They are not being contracted past 32 years of age and both contracts seem like fair value. The bonus is, like Lynch-Prestia-Caddy before them, they are familiar with each other. So I don’t see anything wrong with those deals at all. If the players go wrong for some reason like injury or other issues, it doesn’t make the recruiting strategy bad. No matter which way you spend your draft picks and cap space, there is a risk or things going wrong. These guys look pretty solid to me, including good injury histories. Unlike someone like Zac Williams, who had played about 2 fullish seasons ever before the Blues recruited him.

 

[Calcium Man]

When you sign Pick 7, you are taking a 2 year risk on them with low financial cost.

When, you are paying 2 players 5 million over 7 years each, the risk is undoubtedly a lot higher. One serious injury in their first 2 years and you are stuck with a extremely expensive potato on your list for 5 years. Look at Grundy & Treloar - they looked well and truely worth the risk of their contracts at the time, but both will be moved on for pennies on the dollar.

Grundy and Treloar trades are because Collingwood ruined their cap after years of bringing in players on overpriced contracts all the way back to Levi Greenwood in 2014 and kept pushing the problem down the road by back ending deals until it all blew up. So not comparable to our situation where we’ve brought in 2 big contracts in 6 years and just moved a lot of money off our list.

in the NBA, 7 year contracts are illegal because so many clubs destroyed themselves with longer ones. They can only offer 4-5 year, at most.

This is a broad nothing statement! How can I even consider that to be true without examples that I can research?

Everything around those 7 year contracts needs be assessed not that they were given out and it sucked. Situations matter when assessing a bad contract.

Was it an injury prone player?
Was it someone who was always boom or bust? Huge gamble on high lottery pick who hadn’t put it all together?

If somebody offered Le Bron a 7 year contract at 10% below his max they’d have looked like genius. There always seems to be a potential opposite example to your broad statements that you never seem to consider when you make these argument.

What are they paid compared to
similar players in their position. Bowes for example on 825k for next two years well and truly overpay compared to similar players. 750k on the other hand is about going rate for A grade midfielders, Cerra, Adam’s, Mitchell, JOM, Shiel, Z Williams, Sloane, Prestia and so on. Of fact a lot of those are not even a graders.

But back to basketball l, it is hard to compare, a max contract is 33% of the cap for a guy who occupies 20% of your roster and your probably hoping a more then 20% of your offence. Meanwhile TT and Hopper are 10% of the cap and given they have a lesser impact on a game due to it being spread across 22 vs 5 players, it doesn’t “destroy” your club.

Plus this doesn’t take into account salary cap increases. Andrew Wiggins somehow overpaid max player at the wolves now looks under paid at the Warriors as the second best player on a championship team.

Even at 5 years, those contracts often end up being the ones the team has to bundle with first rounders like GC are doing right not to move on

So because the suns continue to overpay their players we therefore will?. Stop conflating two separate things like what Richmond do with what Gold Coast do. Otherwise I can say Richmond gave out a 7 year contract to Dustin Martin and it resulted in 3 flags.

Sure there is a risk that at pick 7 you end up a dud, but it & the few picks after it have also been one of the most successful picks in draft history with the likes of Selwood, J.Lewis, Naughton, Bailey Smith - loads of talent im around that pick in history.

I agree pick 7 has a fantastic history. But pick 7 isn’t winning us a premiership next year.

And that’s really it. You don’t believe we can win it next year. The club and I do. Strikes me as cowardly to not go all out to win a premiership, that’s the entire point. Bet the lakers dont regret it and I beat the heat don’t regret it either despite not winning they gave it everything this year and in the bubble. Couldn’t have more respect for a team despite despising them.

People need to remember also, we are not married to having to take both GWS guys - we could take the cheaper or more required of the 2, then take Bowes and use the money we were spending on the 2nd GWS kid on Bowes + pick 7

We are married to it. We have publicly committed to bringing both guys in. We may have a qualifiers depending on if GWS ask too much but they’ll be the two players we do all we can to bring in. It would hurt our reputation with players and other clubs if we were to pivot.

The club just doesn’t operate in this manner under Ben Gale.

So then we trade maybe Pick 12 + Soldo, get Taranto. Then the money we were going to spend on Hopper we pay to Bowes, who contract is a 150k a season more than what we are offering, but also get pick 7

So essentially we get Taranto, Bowes & upgrade pick 12 to 7, and only lose Soldo.

If we think Hopper is actually the more required player here despite his trade cost likely to be a bit less, we might even up getting him, Bowes & heading into this years draft with pick 7 & 12, while trading out 19 + Soldo

The money we were using on Taranto & Soldo more than covers Bowes contract, which in 2 years time becomes a massive $850k space in our cap to chase the top Free Agent with

That’s just cutting corners. Didn’t seem to work for OKC or First edition Le bron cavs.

Also, a lot of people think us offering these guys 7 years is overpaying too. Its a insanely long contract. To give 2 of them at the same time is pretty wild

I wouldn’t say insanely long, but I’d have preferred 6 years max and Hopper preferably 5. But it obviously took a bit more risk.

To get 2 of them at the same time is incredibly wild. But wild in a few reds turns into an orgy kind of way. What both can do at AFL is proven to be of the highest quality and at a consistent level, if you’re not gonna take a risk on these types of credentialed players well your probably never gonna take a risk in your life.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Grundy and Treloar trades are because Collingwood ruined their cap after years of bringing in players on overpriced contracts all the way back to Levi Greenwood in 2014 and kept pushing the problem down the road by back ending deals until it all blew up. So not comparable to our situation where we’ve brought in 2 big contracts in 6 years and just moved a lot of money off our list.



This is a broad nothing statement! How can I even consider that to be true without examples that I can research?

Everything around those 7 year contracts needs be assessed not that they were given out and it sucked. Situations matter when assessing a bad contract.

Was it an injury prone player?
Was it someone who was always boom or bust? Huge gamble on high lottery pick who hadn’t put it all together?

If somebody offered Le Bron a 7 year contract at 10% below his max they’d have looked like genius. There always seems to be a potential opposite example to your broad statements that you never seem to consider when you make these argument.

What are they paid compared to
similar players in their position. Bowes for example on 825k for next two years well and truly overpay compared to similar players. 750k on the other hand is about going rate for A grade midfielders, Cerra, Adam’s, Mitchell, JOM, Shiel, Z Williams, Sloane, Prestia and so on. Of fact a lot of those are not even a graders.

But back to basketball l, it is hard to compare, a max contract is 33% of the cap for a guy who occupies 20% of your roster and your probably hoping a more then 20% of your offence. Meanwhile TT and Hopper are 10% of the cap and given they have a lesser impact on a game due to it being spread across 22 vs 5 players, it doesn’t “destroy” your club.

Plus this doesn’t take into account salary cap increases. Andrew Wiggins somehow overpaid max player at the wolves now looks under paid at the Warriors as the second best player on a championship team.



So because the suns continue to overpay their players we therefore will?. Stop conflating two separate things like what Richmond do with what Gold Coast do. Otherwise I can say Richmond gave out a 7 year contract to Dustin Martin and it resulted in 3 flags.



I agree pick 7 has a fantastic history. But pick 7 isn’t winning us a premiership next year.

And that’s really it. You don’t believe we can win it next year. The club and I do. Strikes me as cowardly to not go all out to win a premiership, that’s the entire point. Bet the lakers dont regret it and I beat the heat don’t regret it either despite not winning they gave it everything this year and in the bubble. Couldn’t have more respect for a team despite despising them.



We are married to it. We have publicly committed to bringing both guys in. We may have a qualifiers depending on if GWS ask too much but they’ll be the two players we do all we can to bring in. It would hurt our reputation with players and other clubs if we were to pivot.

The club just doesn’t operate in this manner under Ben Gale.




That’s just cutting corners. Didn’t seem to work for OKC or First edition Le bron cavs.




I wouldn’t say insanely long, but I’d have preferred 6 years max and Hopper preferably 5. But it obviously took a bit more risk.

To get 2 of them at the same time is incredibly wild. But wild in a few reds turns into an orgy kind of way. What both can do at AFL is proven to be of the highest quality and at a consistent level, if you’re not gonna take a risk on these types of credentialed players well your probably never gonna take a risk in your life.

Richmond = warriors.

TT and hops = Wiggins.

 

[LuKe2428]

People are actually stupid if they think it will be Bowes + pick 7 for someone like Aarts/RCD.
Will almost definitely be Bowes + pick 7 for pick 12 or something like that if we were to trade for him.
You’re not getting a top 10 pick to take on 2 years of salary. Especially when they kid isn’t all that bad of a player.

 

[Marcel Proust]

People are actually stupid if they think it will be Bowes + pick 7 for someone like Aarts/RCD.
Will almost definitely be Bowes + pick 7 for pick 12 or something like that if we were to trade for him.
You’re not getting a top 10 pick to take on 2 years of salary. Especially when they kid isn’t all that bad of a player.

Well that'd make it more palatable if he goes to cats.

It's hard to know from the outside given the expansion sides salary caps

 

[Muddiemoose]

With us having a good relationship with Gold Coast I would be taking that pick 7 and salary dump of Bowes right now I would be on the phone now doing the trade getting in first before the scum cats do the afl should stop them from doing it after winning the flag

Really don’t see how it’s a good trade for us
Eats up cap space that we have just gained to secure players that play a position we need

All to gain another half back player when it’s our most covered position from both the perspective (Rioli, Short, Baker, Vloss) of best 22 players and vfl depth (Ralphsmith, Browne, Banks)

So it will ultimately cost us Taranto or Hopper, the spot on the list for a player we don’t need, cap space, and our first round pick that we are going to trade anyway as a part of another deal that is already in the works (Taranto/Hopper)

 

[THECHIEFTON]

Really don’t see how it’s a good trade for us
Eats up cap space that we have just gained to secure players that play a position we need

All to gain another half back player when it’s our most covered position from both the perspective (Rioli, Short, Baker, Vloss) of best 22 players and vfl depth (Ralphsmith, Browne, Banks)

So it will ultimately cost us Taranto or Hopper, the spot on the list for a player we don’t need, cap space, and our first round pick that we are going to trade anyway as a part of another deal that is already in the works (Taranto/Hopper)

Also we probably already committed to Hopper and Taranto before this deal with Bowes+pick 7 popped up.