List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 5

[Maurice Mitchell]

Powell Pepper for Graham please


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That wouldn’t be happening unless SPP suddenly wanted out, but while his career has been far from stellar, I’ve loved his finals performances.

Built for the big games.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

carltoon supporter

He is trying to bait me Groupie. I am the target. I'll see if I can find his posts from when he thought they had Graham 2 years ago.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

carltoon supporter

And there's more, but you get the drift.

 

[Thrasher97]

Sad if Graham goes, heart and soul type and true Richmond man, would rather keep him if at all possible.
But won't start melting until he's officially nominated to be traded.

 

[Mr Magic]

Sad if Graham goes, heart and soul type and true Richmond man, would rather keep him if at all possible.
But won't start melting until he's officially nominated to be traded.

I would not let Graham go for nothing like some like to do


Still if we ended up with Taranto, Bowes, O halloran, pick 7 and other bits and pieces along with what we have it would give us a real interesting combination with a lot of potential I think.

They all could not fit, but they could develop and our reserves team would be far more interesting with different exciting combinations

 

[WATiger86]

Now the grand final is over, when should we expect Luke Parker

26

Luke Parker

Age

32

Ht

183cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.2

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.8

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.8

5star

D

22.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

9.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

5.0

5star

CL

5.5

5star

D

21.2

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

8.0

5star

CL

5.2

5star

to nominate us

 

[Put a Lids on it]

what are we lookin at here fook me dead, we in it upto our eyeballs if this trade periods works out !!@

 

[Noidnadroj]

Don't get me wrong Noid, I agree with you on all this mate.

But it baffles me how people (media, supporters of Richmond and other clubs) will readily declare Berry as worth #12 and Starcevich #15, yet will blanch at the possibility that a double premiership (effectively triple really) player like Jack Graham - a PROVEN big match performer - is somehow not worthy of Top #10.

Starcevich is an excellent defender capable of shutting down Bolton, Papley etc…. he’s outstanding in his position. Berry is 192cm and 24yo mid that just played a final that included a 22-possession half. He’s got more ‘tricks’ than Graham. Although maybe 15-18 is more realistic for Berry.


And I’m not sure Graham is this proven performer in big games he’s painted as. The GF has sort of cemented a ‘big game’ reputation that probably is not well earned. Other than the 2017 GF there aren’t too many great finals games from Graham?

2017 QF win = 9 touches
2017 PF win = 14 touches
2017 GF win = 16 touches + 3 goals
2018 QF win = 7 touches
2018 PF loss = 8 touches.
2019 QF win = 14 touches
2019 PF win = 7 touches (injured)
*2020 QF loss = 16 touches
2020 SF win = 14 touches
2020 PF win = 14 touches
2020 GF win = 17 touches

*2020 shortened games.

He has had lots of tackles and pressure acts so
don’t get me wrong, he’s a valuable player. But he’s a hard-working vanilla mid/hybrid. No team would even consider a top-10 pick for someone who is not excellent in their position. I think we have to be realistic and anything around #20 is fair.

Albeit I’d prefer to keep him than swap him for pick #20 as he does play a very selfless role and his next 5-years are likely to be his best.


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[sregit]

Never rated him that highly myself, too soft in the contest and always looking for the Josh jenkins type goals.

Chol plays like a goal sneak. Does not crash packs as you’d expect of a KPF. He would not of got a game at Richmond this year.

 

[cairo tiger]

Worried about fridge leaving now. I reckon it’s on.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Starcevich is an excellent defender capable of shutting down Bolton, Papley etc…. he’s outstanding in his position. Berry is 192cm and 24yo mid that just played a final that included a 22-possession half. He’s got more ‘tricks’ than Graham. Although maybe 15-18 is more realistic for Berry.


And I’m not sure Graham is this proven performer in big games he’s painted as. The GF has sort of cemented a ‘big game’ reputation that probably is not well earned. Other than the 2017 GF there aren’t too many great finals games from Graham?

2017 QF win = 9 touches
2017 PF win = 14 touches
2017 GF win = 16 touches + 3 goals
2018 QF win = 7 touches
2018 PF loss = 8 touches.
2019 QF win = 14 touches
2019 PF win = 7 touches (injured)
*2020 QF loss = 16 touches
2020 SF win = 14 touches
2020 PF win = 14 touches
2020 GF win = 17 touches

*2020 shortened games.

He has had lots of tackles and pressure acts so
don’t get me wrong, he’s a valuable player. But he’s a hard-working vanilla mid/hybrid. No team would even consider a top-10 pick for someone who is not excellent in their position. I think we have to be realistic and anything around #20 is fair.

Albeit I’d prefer to keep him than swap him for pick #20 as he does play a very selfless role and his next 5-years are likely to be his best.


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Watch the 2020 prelim again. He was awesome. He was great all that finals series.

We don't judge defensive players on their offensive numbers. He's been a defensive player for us. He's capable of getting more of a kick, which he probably will in a new role at Poort if he goes.

 

[sregit]

Definitely appears that way but it was also my understanding that he needed to be promoted back to the sr and not on the rookie list anymore, but I could be wrong

We can delist him then offer rookie spot if no other club drafts him.

 

[richoplzbreed]

Graham played 20 games this year, 2 fewer than in 2021 and despite carrying an injury for the second half of the season, basically averaged similar stats to last year, lets see where he ends up in the B&F, I'd suggest he'll be higher than a lot of people think.

He ended up pretty much where I had him (16th not a great finish this year and plenty way above him can actually play the injured card). Main thing is look who finished just behind him MRJ had half as much gametime (less games +sub several games), and at starvation corner hardly gonna get votes. Edwards was bloody ordinary to crap 90% of games and was basically carried to 300. Cumberland 8 games. I reckon Balta had a superior season to Graham also but only so many players can poll votes. The coaches know more than us and judge players on assigned roles. I was calling for Graham to be dropped for majority of the season, and reckon if he and Edwards were dropped way before the middle of the season that we would've definitely finished top 4.

As I previously stated last years Jack Dyer medal had those that managed to stay on the paddock majority of the season poll well especially midfielders thus his runner up finish. Graham never played especially well last year (I normally don't rate stats but just a quick comparison last year our midfield was decimated and Graham only averaged 19 disposals as the main man. Sonsie averaged 18 this year with cameos and no tank whatsoever) So honestly where did you have him finishing in this years BnF?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Should get more for Graham than we have to cough up for either Taranto or Hopper .
Graham and our first for Taranto & Hopper wouldn’t be a bad outcome .
Graham’s lack of agility and leg speed has always been a battle . Extremely good straight line , run all day player.
Reckon Ross has more upside tbh .

 

[Chunky09]

I half agree. But it's not $ per se. It's power, or scale, and a sense of aesthetics.

They want to cover all of Australia (bar Tassie, which has been forced on them) just so they have more reach. This costs money and probably will be a good thing in 40 years. But their way of 'growing' the game is just to pay for new teams in new places. Why not build up the game via grass roots and build teams more organically? So the AFL will just smash their way in, and it usually doesn't work.

On the aesthetics, they want AFLX. That was/is the goal. It's just that people won't watch it, and an AFLX style game loses in the AFL. So a sensible person would just accept that and move on. The AFL changes rules and screws teams over.

To me so much is about beliefs that are never reality checked. And if reality shows something different they spend mega $ and years in trying to change reality. With the media lap dogs cheering them on.

Over time I've come to belief that it is usually not a conspiracy, it's incompetence and narcissistic unwillingness to admit fault.

Fantastic post and well written

 

[bc27]

If we come out of the trade period with Taranto and hopper and still have a top 20 draft pick and only losing graham then I’m more then okay with that.

What I’m more wondering about is what has spurred the Jack graham

17

Jack Graham

Age

26

Ht

181cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.7

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.8

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

6.3

5star

CL

1.8

4star

D

11.8

3star

K

5.3

2star

HB

6.5

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

4.2

5star

CL

1.2

4star

D

14.0

4star

K

6.0

3star

HB

8.0

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

7.0

5star

CL

3.2

5star

move. Is it his own choice or has the club been told that 12,19 and a future first is not sufficient for hopper and Taranto

 

[bc27]

Tigers In: Hopper, Taranto, Port future 3rd
Out: 12,19,30, Graham

GWS in: 12,19,20
Out: Taranto, Hopper

Port in: Graham, pick 30 (tigers)
Out: pick 20 (Amon compo) future 3rd

 

[Barunga Bullet]

I would not let Graham go for nothing like some like to do


Still if we ended up with Taranto, Bowes, O halloran, pick 7 and other bits and pieces along with what we have it would give us a real interesting combination with a lot of potential I think.

They all could not fit, but they could develop and our reserves team would be far more interesting with different exciting combinations

We are not getting Bowes, pick 7 and ohalloran ffs, we are getting Taranto and Hopper! Just bloody accept it and stop making up names. This isn't Mr Magics fantasy land, it's the real world.

 

[ROYCY HART A TRUE CHF]

Tigers In: Hopper, Taranto, Port future 3rd
Out: 12,19,30, Graham

GWS in: 12,19,20
Out: Taranto, Hopper

Port in: Graham, pick 30 (tigers)
Out: pick 20 (Amon compo) future 3rd

??????

 

[zakazano]

I half agree. But it's not $ per se. It's power, or scale, and a sense of aesthetics.

They want to cover all of Australia (bar Tassie, which has been forced on them) just so they have more reach. This costs money and probably will be a good thing in 40 years. But their way of 'growing' the game is just to pay for new teams in new places. Why not build up the game via grass roots and build teams more organically? So the AFL will just smash their way in, and it usually doesn't work.

On the aesthetics, they want AFLX. That was/is the goal. It's just that people won't watch it, and an AFLX style game loses in the AFL. So a sensible person would just accept that and move on. The AFL changes rules and screws teams over.

To me so much is about beliefs that are never reality checked. And if reality shows something different they spend mega $ and years in trying to change reality. With the media lap dogs cheering them on.

Over time I've come to belief that it is usually not a conspiracy, it's incompetence and narcissistic unwillingness to admit fault.

Grass roots development takes 10yrs, and those young players in NSW/Qld etc need to see local stars to aspire to be - not just blokes they occasionally see on TV, and probably hidden away on Fox. That decade is long enough for another code (ie NRL and Peter V'Landys leading with the bucket of cash) to smash their way in and steal the limelight. The market for junior sport is far more competitive now than a generation or two ago.

And just like politics, nobody has the patience to look forward 10yrs - it's all about the existing administration's time in office, quick results rather than setting up a legacy that won't be fully appreciated for 20yrs.

The trick is finding the right balance as both ends need the support, and the 'trickle down effect' never works in any form.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Batting well above his average. Bit like Dizzy making a double ton on the sub-continent

George isn't even close.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Yep … Lions are going to have to trade out someone of quality if they get Gunston. It’s simple maths:

Lions currently have 15, 33, 44 and 69.

If McStay goes but Gunston comes in it will water compo down to an end of 2nd round pick… absolute best case, but let’s assume that’s what it is, so pick #34. So 2022 draft they have 15, 33, 34, 44 and 69. #15 alone does not get Dunkley done. So it’s #15 and a future first for Dunkley.

Ashcroft will cost them 2,400 points. 33, 34, 44
and 69 are worth a total of : 1,516 points.

Fletcher will be bid on about #20, so 730 points.

So they are about 1,600 points in deficit. With their first pick of let’s say #15 gone for Dunkley next year, their remaining picks of 33, 51 and 69 are worth 870 points. So they remain 730 points in deficit using ALL their picks.

So if they get Dunkley, Fletcher and Gunston they’d have no picks next year (not allowed) and would STILL be 700 points in deficit.

In other words … a really big fish worth a first rounder needs to exit the Lions if they want Ashcroft, Fletcher and Gunston.

The only ones I’d see of that value they’d be willing to lose are: Rayner (between 6-10 value), J Berry (12-16), Starcevich (15-20) or Daniher (25-30 with his salary).

They are not letting Neale, McLuggage, Hipwood, Bailey or Cameron go.

*the wildcard is Harris Andrews. Would get a top-6 pick for him ……but don’t think they’d let him go.


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How can they trade a f1 if they're going into deficit?

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Don't get me wrong Noid, I agree with you on all this mate.

But it baffles me how people (media, supporters of Richmond and other clubs) will readily declare Berry as worth #12 and Starcevich #15, yet will blanch at the possibility that a double premiership (effectively triple really) player like Jack Graham - a PROVEN big match performer - is somehow not worthy of Top #10.

Simple mate.Oppos only go by Supercoach numbers.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Cumbo punching above his weight division

Thats his Mum.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

I hope we do the trade for Jack Graham to Port after the Taranto / Hopper trade.

GWS would try to ream us of picks we get for Jack Graham otherwise.

Our deal with gws has already been agreed too.