List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 6

[Muddiemoose]

Last one Ross played entirely inside was R23 last year against Bombers, had about 25d and a goal.

Only 3 contested possies and 1 clearance as well (zero centre clearances)

Played mid but not as an inside mid

Still says to me that his best position is as an outside player and not as that inside bull he was originally recruited as and that’s said with the upmost respect for him as well

But I think your original post was about players draft position being their best position when I just don’t think that is true either players best positions are just something that happens over time and can also depend on the coaches they have

Just off the top of my head and definitely not the only examples

Vlossy - Inside mid
Short - Small forward
Dan Rioli - Small forward
Jason Castagna - Small defender

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Only 3 contested possies and 1 clearance as well (zero centre clearances)

Played mid but not as an inside mid

Still says to me that his best position is as an outside player and not as that inside bull he was originally recruited as and that’s said with the upmost respect for him as well

But I think your original post was about players draft position being their best position when I just don’t think that is true either players best positions are just something that happens over time and can also depend on the coaches they have

Just off the top of my head and definitely not the only examples

Vlossy - Inside mid
Short - Small forward
Dan Rioli - Small forward
Jason Castagna - Small defender

The issue is he has had precious few opportunities as an inside mid to develop at senior level. He has had the odd game but rarely played there for a decent block. Too good for the VFL. He has been good enough to develop an outside game from necessity.

 

[Muddiemoose]

The issue is he has had precious few opportunities as an inside mid to develop at senior level. He has had the odd game but rarely played there for a decent block. Too good for the VFL. He has been good enough to develop an outside game from necessity.

Can make the argument that if he was good enough to play the role the coaches would of simply been playing him in the role in the first place

Can’t really say we lacked opportunities when last year we played players like Baker and Short as inside mids and for a lot of games because we didn’t have any other options

Coaches see these guys every day, not just gameday and during training drills where he would of had more than ample opportunity to make his claim for the role

Even this year when Hopper was injured for a block and Cotch could of easily been rested Ross could of been played as an inside mid
The opportunity was there we even gave Dow another crack at the role

He’s just turned out to not be that kind of player
Once again it’s not an attack or a negative it’s just the reality

 

[thegcat]

Always liked the look of Harrison Jones from ESS. Still needs to bulk up and is injury prone but has great potential and is a very agile tall forward who could one day put it all together

 

[Profop]

Miller is definitely a key back. I hope he gets a chance one day to spend a large consistent chunk of time in that possession to show how good he could be

I worry he may fall victim to his flexibility and become a Jack of all trades master of none

 

[Mr Magic]

Our Key Fwd situation concerns me as i fear they will go for Himmelberg to save jobs


Key Fwds for Flags last decade

2022 - Hawkins & Cameron
2021 - Fritsch, Ben Brown, Tom McDonald, Luke Jackson, Max Gawn
2020 - Riewoldt, Lynch & Dusty
2019 - Riewoldt, Lynch & Dusty
2018 - Darling & Kennedy
2017 - Jack & the Chaos Kings
2016 - Boyd, Stringer
2013-15 - Gunston, Roughead, Breust, Cyril (Franklin in 13)





You can have many variants and be successful, but what you almost always need a certain quality of name in your Big 2. There are a few interesting moments for sure looking at that list - the Dogs & Tigers in 2017 both won flags with forwardlines that, on paper, are clearly sub-par to the rest of that decade. It would be interesting to pinpoint what exactly changed in footy after the Hawks dynasty that led to GF's being won with very inexperienced forwardlines that functioned in a very untraditional format. Richmond effectively "righted" that ship when they got Lynch & since then marking forwards have been king again. By 2021 the amount of elite marking forward options Melbourne had to win a flag was about as "yang" to Richmonds 2017 "ying".

Himmelberg just doesn;t look like a name i'd expect to be in that list above.

Vlastuin was good up forward on the weekend

 

[Mr Magic]

HH would be invaluable if we had him now we’d have won 2-3 more games that would have us cusp of top 4. I wouldnt go near 7y we have our quote but 5y no problem

HH would carry zero value for us now.

Not against him it is just we are too deficient in other areas.

He is the sort of play maybe in 2017 bit not now, we need to go to the draft.

CFC will rise next year I think barring injuries amongst other teams

We need to invest in the draft big time.

I think it will be incredibly difficult to make finals in 2024, no matter who is the coach, and premiership impossible

Nothing against the players rather the list composition.

We need a heap of draft talent to come in and look 3-4 years ahead

We have some good youngsters but we need more and some high quality ones to that can only come from the draft

We are better off chasing the likes of Bontempelli in four years time. That is the strategy we need, or not even Bont, maybe we can get Harley Reid in four years time

Continually topping up is asking the players to defy gravity, they are human, we have to pick our battles and give our club and players realistic goals and help them win the most premierships we can where possible

 

[Mr Magic]

Agree, I'd honestly gamble on another preseason out of Ryan, Bauer, Gibcus and Bradtke and see what upside they all have as KPFs rather than give HH a 5 year deal at very good coin.

100 percent, I like how they are developing and we need other areas of our team to develop anyway so we are right to contend when we can contend again

 

[Growapair]

Vlossy - Inside mid Was drafted as a rebounding defender, had failed to be drafted after year 12, drafted as the 19 year old playing defence.
Short - Small forward "As a junior, I played wherever the coach put me, so I was down back a fair bit"
Jason Castagna - Small defender - George was an athlete not a footballer.

 

[juss]

100 percent, I like how they are developing and we need other areas of our team to develop anyway so we are right to contend when we can contend again

And I'm not against bringing in a KPF but they need to either be:

A) proven and established gun as a forward and young enough to warrant the deal and then spend the big money (e.g. Tom Lynch)

Or

B) Promising young player with big upside that also comes with a far reduced cost and risk

Himmelburg is neither of those options so it's a strong no from me

 

[chrstphrwnstn]

Only 3 contested possies and 1 clearance as well (zero centre clearances)

Played mid but not as an inside mid

Still says to me that his best position is as an outside player and not as that inside bull he was originally recruited as and that’s said with the upmost respect for him as well

But I think your original post was about players draft position being their best position when I just don’t think that is true either players best positions are just something that happens over time and can also depend on the coaches they have

Just off the top of my head and definitely not the only examples

Vlossy - Inside mid
Short - Small forward
Dan Rioli - Small forward
Jason Castagna - Small defender

Vlas was always recruited as a medium defender. Was named at RHB in the 2012 U18 All Australian Team.

 

[Mr Magic]

And I'm not against bringing in a KPF but they need to either be:

A) proven and established gun as a forward and young enough to warrant the deal and then spend the big money (e.g. Tom Lynch)

Or

B) Promising young player with big upside that also comes with a far reduced cost and risk

Himmelburg is neither of those options so it's a strong no from me

Bailey Smith might be a good target for us in 3-4 years time

There are a few teams in no mans land potentially where things could go pair shaped in the next few years.

We hit the draft, a lot of players will get on the market in 3-4 years after we hit the draft hard I think

Currently a lot of teams have expectations, especially those that have not won the big one for a while, they thing they can snatch it in the next two years.

Let them have their run and when they miss their players will want out most likely chasing the next wave

 

[Muddiemoose]

Vlas was always recruited as a medium defender. Was named at RHB in the 2012 U18 All Australian Team.

Vloss played both but the intention was always to have him as an inside mid it’s just he never made the transition

But once again just highlights again that projections at draft time and where they played as a jr isn’t always an indicator of what a player’s best position is

Not sure why I can’t reply to Growapair but I’ve included the tag because it’s a response to him as well

Nick Vlastuin pre-draft flashback

In the lead-up to the 2012 AFL national draft, the Herald Sun ran an article about one of the best young prospects, Northern Knights midfielder/half-back Nick Vlastuin.

www.richmondfc.com.au

We (Richmond) also drafted Castagna as a defender saying he’ was an athlete not a footballer is just a diversion and shows you don’t have any counter to the point I was making

Short being a “utility” also just doubles down on my initial point
Where a player players in the jr system dosent mean that will be their best position at afl level

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Vlastuin was drafted as an 18yo.

 

[Mr Magic]

And I'm not against bringing in a KPF but they need to either be:

A) proven and established gun as a forward and young enough to warrant the deal and then spend the big money (e.g. Tom Lynch)

Or

B) Promising young player with big upside that also comes with a far reduced cost and risk

Himmelburg is neither of those options so it's a strong no from me

Agree top quality forwards/key forwards are rare as hens teeth. If they are any good they do not come on the market unless they are Gunston who is near retirement.

A Gibcus type is a better play through the draft. But we have plenty of areas to get better at. Best available

Have a look at Marshall versus Gawn and Grundy showing the overinvestment in certain roles when some clubs lose the plot

JUH might be available in 4 years, Bulldogs could fall over yet in another three years

Even Melbourne, heavily reliant on Oliver and Petracca. What happens when Gawn retires, do they drop off like us?? Will they trade their players away?? Gawn could get a injury, it happens

Even the Pies cannot go forever on the two Daicos, Pendles and co have to retire eventually and Geelong still are coming back no matter what they attempt. Geelong cannot screw GC forever

They are a lot of roundabout teams that in three years after we hit the draft will, have good players available

 

[Bojangles17]

HH would carry zero value for us now.

Not against him it is just we are too deficient in other areas.

He is the sort of play maybe in 2017 bit not now, we need to go to the draft.

CFC will rise next year I think barring injuries amongst other teams

We need to invest in the draft big time.

I think it will be incredibly difficult to make finals in 2024, no matter who is the coach, and premiership impossible

Nothing against the players rather the list composition.

We need a heap of draft talent to come in and look 3-4 years ahead

We have some good youngsters but we need more and some high quality ones to that can only come from the draft

We are better off chasing the likes of Bontempelli in four years time. That is the strategy we need, or not even Bont, maybe we can get Harley Reid in four years time

Continually topping up is asking the players to defy gravity, they are human, we have to pick our battles and give our club and players realistic goals and help them win the most premierships we can where possible

You can select a FA and still invest in the draft coz it doesn’t cost a draft exchange what are you missing

 

[Bojangles17]

Always liked the look of Harrison Jones from ESS. Still needs to bulk up and is injury prone but has great potential and is a very agile tall forward who could one day put it all together

campaigner of a kick tho

 

[Growapair]

Vloss played both but the intention was always to have him as an inside mid it’s just he never made the transition

But once again just highlights again that projections at draft time and where they played as a jr isn’t always an indicator of what a player’s best position is

Not sure why I can’t reply to Growapair but I’ve included the tag because it’s a response to him as well

Nick Vlastuin pre-draft flashback

In the lead-up to the 2012 AFL national draft, the Herald Sun ran an article about one of the best young prospects, Northern Knights midfielder/half-back Nick Vlastuin.

www.richmondfc.com.au

We (Richmond) also drafted Castagna as a defender saying he’ was an athlete not a footballer is just a diversion and shows you don’t have any counter to the point I was making

Short being a “utility” also just doubles down on my initial point
Where a player players in the jr system dosent mean that will be their best position at afl level

All the players that you stated had played juniors in the position they played their first 100 games (except George, but he made a career out of being a defensive forward - and he spent his juniors defending ...)

View attachment 1734370

Vlastuin was drafted as an 18yo.

View attachment 1734371

i am sure Vlastuin was no longer at school his final year, was working as a Lifeguard at the local pool if I remember correctly? Found it .....

Vlastuin completed high school at St Helena Secondary College in 2011. In addition to football commitments, he worked as a pool lifeguard during 2012.
Read his Wikipedia page

He was actually 18 years old when he captained Vic Metro because he was not 18 at the start of the year after he finished school so qualified.

When are you right but not right, right? lol

 

[Mr Magic]

You can select a FA and still invest in the draft coz it doesn’t cost a draft exchange what are you missing

That is not what I am talking about in terms of cost.

Cost is not just about dollars.

I would rather Zac Butters in 3-4 years time.

Zac Butters with Hopper and Taranto should work theoretically and Sonsie and co can be their to.

Ports list could thin out in 3-4 years. They have been up for a while, got lucky with JHF but Rozee and Butters cannot do it all in the years ahead. A few cracks might appear. Boak will be retired , how well will Wines be in 3-4 years, their forward line?? Just Marshall..

We have a fair list now and we are not far from the cellar dwellers as well as the eight. It is not about our players, it is about demographics, we just need a bit of time to give us the opportunity to get real talent in and foster more list upside because teams like Port, Brisbane and Pies are simply in their sweet spot now and probably for the next couple of years. They get out of their sweet spot by playing off in GF's like us, it is called equalisation

 

[Muddiemoose]

All the players that you stated had played juniors in the position they played their first 100 games (except George, but he made a career out of being a defensive forward - and he spent his juniors defending ...)




i am sure Vlastuin was no longer at school his final year, was working as a Lifeguard at the local pool if I remember correctly? Found it .....

Vlastuin completed high school at St Helena Secondary College in 2011. In addition to football commitments, he worked as a pool lifeguard during 2012.
Read his Wikipedia page

He was actually 18 years old when he captained Vic Metro because he was not 18 at the start of the year after he finished school so qualified.

When are you right but not right, right? lol

But we aren’t talking about the first 100 games you initially responded to me with

Yeah, nah

Miller was drafted as a ruckman, looks best as a ruckman

Ross was drafted as an inside midfielder, looks best as in inside midfielder

Recently both have put in some complete games playing elsewhere but it's taken years and they still look best in their old role.

In regards to Bauer and Gibcus both look comfortable at both ends so it will depend a bit on other personnel.

In response to me saying that just because a player is drafted as a certain position doesn’t mean it’s their best position

My argument hasn’t changed, you have now shifted the goal posts to the first 100 games

But funnily enough if we use your 100 game example that you have just shifted to on the player the whole initial exchange was about (Jack Ross)

He has now played 56 games… and zero as an inside mid so at this point it seems you are just debating for the sake of it and completely forgotten what the initial discussion was in response to

 

[Bojangles17]

That is not what I am talking about in terms of cost.

Cost is not just about dollars.

I would rather Zac Butters in 3-4 years time.

Zac Butters with Hopper and Taranto should work theoretically and Sonsie and co can be their to.

Ports list could thin out in 3-4 years. They have been up for a while, got lucky with JHF but Rozee and Butters cannot do it all in the years ahead. A few cracks might appear. Boak will be retired , how well will Wines be in 3-4 years, their forward line?? Just Marshall..

We have a fair list now and we are not far from the cellar dwellers as well as the eight. It is not about our players, it is about demographics, we just need a bit of time to give us the opportunity to get real talent in and foster more list upside because teams like Port, Brisbane and Pies are simply in their sweet spot now and probably for the next couple of years. They get out of their sweet spot by playing off in GF's like us, it is called equalisation

List management is about building bridges , HH and Lynch would be focal points for next 3y while anyone we choose to draft hones their craft at VFL in that time . With the demographic of our list we need a functioning forward line ,
defence
midfieid
forward line , we haven’t got one

 

[captain cotch 9]

At work. At my office it opens into a factory with an automatic metal door that opens up when you come close and closes when you leave. I need to use it as its the way to the loading bay and If I have to take anything to a client, I load the car up from there. Door opened fine but when I went under it, it decided to slam down on my head. Happened in February and only now do I feel I am starting to get some real traction in getting over it finally.

Tom Browne rigged it didn’t he?

 

[Mr Magic]

List management is about building bridges , HH and Lynch would be focal points for next 3y while anyone we choose to draft hones their craft at VFL in that time . With the demographic of our list we need a functioning forward line ,
defence
midfieid
forward line , we haven’t got one

List management has nothing to do with bridges.

List management to win premierships is about winning a Melbourne Cup, it is all about timing and the journey.

Melbourne just had a thousand cracks at the draft including stuff ups, no bridges there before they won in 2021. How is the bridge going between Gawn and Grundy??

HH and Lynch is a bridge I would not cross

 

[Bojangles17]

List management has nothing to do with bridges.

List management to win premierships is about winning a Melbourne Cup, it is all about timing and the journey.

Melbourne just had a thousand cracks at the draft including stuff ups, no bridges there before they won in 2021. How is the bridge going between Gawn and Grundy??

HH and Lynch is a bridge I would not cross

May , lever and hibberd were bridges or where they a bowl of goldfish

 

[Mr Magic]

May , lever and hibberd were bridges or where they a bowl of goldfish

May and lever were trades as was Hibberd. Nothing to do with bridges.

I think we might get Bontempelli as a forward in 3-4 years. He may well lose his midfield prowess as he ages and Bulldogs will not anticipate it and it will be another cluster fck we will have to save a player from