Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[IlovethePies]

Putin fell into the NATO trap hook, line and sinker.

Fundamentally, like most here in this thread, Putin had no understanding of the nature of imperialism.

He believed that if he invaded Ukraine, he could force the imperialists to come to their senses, and do some deal which would ensure that Ukraine did not become a member of NATO, and did not become a platform for further subversion, provocation, and NATO military incursion, into Russia.

He thought that imperialism would allow his regime to peacefully "coexist" with it.

But he did not understand that imperialism will tolerate no barrier to global economic domination in its time of crisis, as we are living through now.

There followed a US/NATO propaganda barrage of which Goebbels himself would have been proud, portraying Putin as the latest reincarnation of Hitler who threatened the entire world, and therefore a NATO/US war threatening the nuclear incineration of mankind was justified to avert this threat.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine was barbaric, murderous, and reactionary. And it was exactly what imperialism wanted him to do.

However, the decision to invade was not a question of Putin's stupidity, but was due to the total bankruptcy of his own regime.

His regime is based on Russian nationalism, which he counterposes to Ukrainian nationalism. He is attempting to ward off imperialism on the basis of the military and economic/social resources of just one country, Russia, a country which has no position of strength in the global economic domination of finance capital.

 

[CD Xbow]

How can you claim it is a "text book" definition when you have no text book, nor any scientific compass whatsoever, for judging any political and economic phenomena?

What does that mean? More meaningless dribble. I have a strong scientific compass, if you care to look at the science board. I'm probably the biggest poster.

Russian Imperialism gets it's own page in Wikipedia and many of those actions described have been taken by the Soviets and Putin. You can look in a dictionary ( a textbook) and see the definition of imperialism

Dictionary definition (Note-ironically uses Russia as an example)

Imperialism noun

1. a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.
   "the struggle against imperialism"
   • historical
     rule by an emperor.
     "in Russia, imperialism had developed alongside a semi-feudal agrarian structure"
     

 

[IlovethePies]

What does that mean? More meaningless dribble. I have a strong scientific compass, if you care to look at the science board. I'm probably the biggest poster.

Russian Imperialism gets it's own page in Wikipedia and many of those actions described have been taken by the Soviets and Putin. You can look in a dictionary ( a textbook) and see the definition of imperialism

Dictionary definition (Note-ironically uses Russia as an example)

Imperialism noun

1. a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.
   "the struggle against imperialism"
   • historical
     rule by an emperor.
     "in Russia, imperialism had developed alongside a semi-feudal agrarian structure"

Unfortunately, and this is part of the crisis of mankind, scientific knowledge in the physical sciences (though under attack today due to the rise of the likes of Trump and RFK, etc) is far more established in human consciousness than it is in the social sciences.

This is because class interests are involved in any attempt to analyse society.

So, even if you post in the science section prolifically, this is no guarantee that you understand scientifically the nature of imperialism.

If you are forced to rely on a Wikipedia definition of imperialism to support your argument, this in itself is a measure of your lack of knowledge in this particular topic.

 

[CD Xbow]

Putin fell into the NATO trap hook, line and sinker.

Fundamentally, like most here in this thread, Putin had no understanding of the nature of imperialism.

He believed that if he invaded Ukraine, he could force the imperialists to come to their senses, and do some deal which would ensure that Ukraine did not become a member of NATO, and did not become a platform for further subversion, provocation, and NATO military incursion, into Russia.

He thought that imperialism would allow his regime to peacefully "coexist" with it.

But he did not understand that imperialism will tolerate no barrier to global economic domination in its time of crisis, as we are living through now.

There followed a US/NATO propaganda barrage of which Goebbels himself would have been proud, portraying Putin as the latest reincarnation of Hitler who threatened the entire world, and therefore a NATO/US war threatening the nuclear incineration of mankind was justified to avert this threat.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine was barbaric, murderous, and reactionary. And it was exactly what imperialism wanted him to do.

However, the decision to invade was not a question of Putin's stupidity, but was due to the total bankruptcy of his own regime.

His regime is based on Russian nationalism, which he counterposes to Ukrainian nationalism. He is attempting to ward off imperialism on the basis of the military and economic/social resources of just one country, Russia, a country which has no position of strength in the global economic domination of finance capital.

More stupid sh*t. Poor Mr P. All NATO's fault, they made me do it. It's always someone's else's fault, never take responsibility for their own actions. In the 1990's I worked a lot getting foreign doctors up to Oz standard, including many Russians. I never worked with a group of doctors who were as autocratic, lying and always blamed other people for their failures. I think this must be some fundamental trait of Russian culture because these qualities have been seen, at great scale during Mr Putin's imperialist invasion of Ukraine.

 

[IlovethePies]

More stupid sh*t. Poor Mr P. All NATO's fault, they made me do it. It's always someone's else's fault, never take responsibility for their own actions. In the 1990's I worked a lot getting foreign doctors up to Oz standard, including many Russians. I never worked with a group of doctors who were as autocratic, lying and always blamed other people for their failures. I think this must be some fundamental trait of Russian culture because these qualities have been seen, at great scale during Mr Putin's imperialist invasion of Ukraine.

Mate, you are blinded by your own prejudices.

I said very clearly that Putin's decision was "barbaric, murderous and reactionary", and was the product of his own political bankruptcy.

If you see this as an exoneration of Putin, then it simply due to this ideological blindness.

Otherwise, it is due to problems in reading comprehension.

Your attempt to attribute political events to some supposed failure in the "Russian soul" is deeply reactionary and will be rejected by all people devoted to rational thought.

 

[Anzacpaul]

Which textbook are you using, gutter crawler?
Maybe you're consulting a chemistry book about how to create a superior slime to lubricate your gutter even more effectively. Then, you''ll be able to dredge up even more muck and even more efficiently.

You're not as intelligent as you think you are.

 

[IlovethePies]

You're not as intelligent as you think you are.

Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to make a note of it.

 

[CD Xbow]

Mate, you are blinded by your own prejudices.

I said very clearly that Putin's decision was "barbaric, murderous and reactionary", and was the product of his own political bankruptcy.

If you see this as an exoneration of Putin, then it simply due to this ideological blindness.

Otherwise, it is due to problems in reading comprehension.

Your attempt to attribute political events to some supposed failure in the "Russian soul" is deeply reactionary and will be rejected by all people devoted to rational thought.

I'm glad you have a skerrick of decency to acknowledge the barbaric nature of Putins invasion.
BUT.
No one made him do it. His choice. His decision. His responsibility.

WRT the Russian soul, I can only recount my own experience teaching Russian docs. I have looked after foreign graduates from Egypt, Kenyan, PNG, Poland, Romania, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Albania, Mali, Tonga, Indonesia, Chile and others, including a pair of lovely Kurdish doctors. Each has their own unique cultural challenges. The Russian docs were by and far the lost likely to lie and not take responsibly for there actions. You are calling my opinion reactionary, whatever crap that means, but it's an opinion that others who taught them also had. I remember a discussion I had with my colleagues who all had noticed the same thing. We wondered if it reflected growing up in the Soviet system where truth is not valued and if the masters say black is white, then black becomes white. Like I said, I see these traits, writ large in Putins words and actions.

 

[IlovethePies]

I'm glad you have a skerrick of decency to acknowledge the barbaric nature of Putins invasion.

I have always said this, from the very start. It is not something new for me to have said.

BUT.
No one made him do it. His choice. His decision. His responsibility.

Don't deny that. That is one of the reasons why I condemn Putin just as much as Zelensky and his US/NATO backers.
They are all complicit in the catastrophe that is now engulfing the Ukrainian AND Russian working class.

WRT the Russian soul, I can only recount my own experience teaching Russian docs. I have looked after foreign graduates from Egypt, Kenyan, PNG, Poland, Romania, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Albania, Mali, Tonga, Indonesia, Chile and others, including a pair of lovely Kurdish doctors. Each has their own unique cultural challenges. The Russian docs were by and far the lost likely to lie and not take responsibly for there actions. You are calling my opinion reactionary, whatever crap that means, but it's an opinion that others who taught them also had. I remember a discussion I had with my colleagues who all had noticed the same thing. We wondered if it reflected growing up in the Soviet system where truth is not valued and if the masters say black is white, then black becomes white. Like I said, I see these traits, writ large in Putins words and actions.

Reactionary means regressive, it applies to any concept, political position or action that in some way strengthens imperialism.

The concept that the actions of the Putin regime are somehow determined by a flawed Russian psyche is reactionary, because it blames all Russian people for the criminal actions of the Putin government.

I find this idea particularly disturbing, because how can one forget that it was the Russian working class that took the first step in overthrowing capitalism, and launching the fight for international socialism, in the October Revolution?

How can one forget that it was the Russian working class that was able to defeat the Nazi war of annihilation, at the cost of 28 million, because they believed that the principles of socialism were worth defending?

You should look for the reasons as to why the Russian doctors seemed less likely to assume responsiblity in terms of class, rather than nationality.

The Stalinist regime that existed in the ex Soviet Union was not a socialist regime, it was a dictatorship aimed at defending the interests of a parasitic bureaucracy at the top.

When the Soviet Union was liquidated in the early 1990's, the Stalinists used their political power to transform themselves into capitalist entrepreneurs. In other words, they plundered the nationalised property of the ex Soviet Union to ensure their self-enrichment at the expense of the vast majority.

So to analyse the character of the Russian doctors you trained, you should not be considering their nationality, but rather their class background.

 

[Rob R]

I am partisan for the working class. I have said that many times.

Yet you constantly excuse the two nations on earth that don't even pretend to give workers any rights?

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

Yet you constantly excuse the two nations on earth that don't even pretend to give workers any rights?

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

I don't excuse any national government, mate.

 

[Zidane98]

I don't excuse any national government, mate.

It's all you ever do in this thread. Excuse Russia, amplify Russian lies about their invading of a peaceful neighbour.

Medvedev has just started publicly Ukraine are either with Russia or doesn't exist at all.

Russia is the last nation that resorts to imperialism, expansion of an empire. It's absolutely a fact and shame on anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Jamolad]

...How can one forget that it was the Russian working class that was able to defeat the Nazi war of annihilation, at the cost of 28 million, because they believed that the principles of socialism were worth defending?

Hang on, you've told us countless times your Socialism has never existed, never been tried.

You've told us countless times that period was Stalinsim, not socialism...so correcting yourself with your own words, what you actually mean is:

How can one forget that it was the Russian working class that was able to defeat the Nazi war of annihilation, at the cost of 28 million, because they believed that the principles of Stalinsm were worth defending?

When you put it that way, not something I'd use if trying to solicit respect for them.

Do you think the Russian working class might rise up in revolution and try to reinstate Stalinism again? They were willing to shed so much blood in the past to defend their beloved Stalinism.

 

[Zidane98]

Ukraine stops all Russian gas transit as of Jan 1



Another $10 billion in the hole for Russia's economy.

 

[Zidane98]

Hang on, you've told us countless times your Socialism has never existed, never been tried.

You've told us countless times that period was Stalinsim, not socialism...so correcting yourself with your own words, what you actually mean is:


When you put it that way, not something I'd use if trying to solicit respect for them.

Do you think the Russian working class might rise up in revolution and try to reinstate Stalinism again? They were willing to shed so much blood in the past to defend their beloved Stalinism.

Also ignores it was US lend lease that kept them going and Ukranian soldiers were the ones who defeated Nazis in Kursk

How ironic it is that Ukranian soldiers in 2024 are fighting Nazis once again in Kursk and also supplied by the US.

 

[Chief]

How can one forget that it was the Russian working class that was able to defeat the Nazi war of annihilation, at the cost of 28 million, because they believed that the principles of socialism were worth defending?

The bit where they would be shot if they refused to fight seems to be missing from this post.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Putin fell into the NATO trap hook, line and sinker.

Fundamentally, like most here in this thread, Putin had no understanding of the nature of imperialism.

He believed that if he invaded Ukraine, he could force the imperialists to come to their senses, and do some deal which would ensure that Ukraine did not become a member of NATO, and did not become a platform for further subversion, provocation, and NATO military incursion, into Russia.

He thought that imperialism would allow his regime to peacefully "coexist" with it.

But he did not understand that imperialism will tolerate no barrier to global economic domination in its time of crisis, as we are living through now.

There followed a US/NATO propaganda barrage of which Goebbels himself would have been proud, portraying Putin as the latest reincarnation of Hitler who threatened the entire world, and therefore a NATO/US war threatening the nuclear incineration of mankind was justified to avert this threat.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine was barbaric, murderous, and reactionary. And it was exactly what imperialism wanted him to do.

However, the decision to invade was not a question of Putin's stupidity, but was due to the total bankruptcy of his own regime.

His regime is based on Russian nationalism, which he counterposes to Ukrainian nationalism. He is attempting to ward off imperialism on the basis of the military and economic/social resources of just one country, Russia, a country which has no position of strength in the global economic domination of finance capital.

If Putin was smart he could get out of this situation he's in with Ukraine and withdraw all his forces back to Russia and then declare his aims have been achieved, and save face, but he won't and will continue to send 100's of 1000's of Russians to their deaths all for his ego.

 

[Visions]

they used a civilian object to conceal the device, so feigning non combatant status would meet the definition.

Lets see what the Hague say.

After all they are the ones who prosecute war crimes like you suggest this is.

Until then, you’re wrong like so many of your other posts.

 

[IlovethePies]

The bit where they would be shot if they refused to fight seems to be missing from this post.

....assad's soldiers fought under that same threat, with a completely different result.

 

[Visions]

Hasn't North Korea sent troops to Ukraine to aid Russian troops?

No surprise the socialist didn’t touch upon this post.

NATO bad. Russia strong. Can bring in whoever it wants to fight off NATO expansion.

 

[Visions]

The bit where they would be shot if they refused to fight seems to be missing from this post.

Can be transposed to the current situation for Russia except this time they are the genocidal regime.

 

[rank and file]

Ukraine stops all Russian gas transit as of Jan 1



Another $10 billion in the hole for Russia's economy.

Looks like Russia is still making billions via their dodgy shadow fleet of oil tankers even though they lost a few last week.

Home — Mystery Ships — Whale Hunting | Project Brazen

Russia’s Coral Energy Operation SCROLL DOWN Nine days before Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, a man from Belize established Nord Axis, a new shipping company, in Hong Kong. Coincidental timing? Maybe. Soon after, Nord Axis became a major player in the Russian...

mysteryships.projectbrazen.com

 

[IlovethePies]

Can be transposed to the current situation for Russia except this time they are the genocidal regime.

Genocide is a word that shouldn't get thrown around loosely. It took an entire case prepared by South Africa and then weeks of deliberation for the ICJ to finally rule that there was strong evidence of a genocide in Gaza, and that the matter needed to be investigated further. Even after the total tidal wave of proof that was presented by the South African legal team, the ICJ still couldn't bring itself to declare that it was definitely genocide.

You are now throwing the word "genocide" around in relation to the Russian invasion of Ukraine without any evidence whatsoever.

You are using the word "genocide" as an epithet to express your uncontrolled hatred of the side you want to lose.

You are also using it to intimidate anyone who opposes your views on the conflict.

What is your evidence that Russia is carrying out genocide in Ukraine, as genocide is strictly defined in international law?

I know that the usual band of idiots will come here and accuse me of being a "genocide-enabler" or "pro-genocide" etc.

If you have definitive proof that Putin is carrying out genocide, you should post it here, and I will be among the first to acknowledge it.

Because you see, I am beholden to no one, neither to Putin, nor to Zelensky.

 

[IlovethePies]

Hang on, you've told us countless times your Socialism has never existed, never been tried.

You've told us countless times that period was Stalinsim, not socialism...so correcting yourself with your own words, what you actually mean is:
How can one forget that it was the Russian working class that was able to defeat the Nazi war of annihilation, at the cost of 28 million, because they believed that the principles of Stalinsm were worth defending?

Do you think the Russian working class might rise up in revolution and try to reinstate Stalinism again? They were willing to shed so much blood in the past to defend their beloved Stalinism.

When the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany began in mid 1941, the Russian Revolution had occurred only 24 years earlier. The socialist principles that animated it were still very much alive in the memory and consciousness of the Soviet working class, despite the depredations of Stalinism.

They did not fight Nazism for Stalinism, they fought for a socialist ideal, which they continued to connect with the social advances that did occur within the Soviet Union after the October Revolution, and with the struggle against oppression which was embodied within the October revolution.

Reality is much more complex than the mechanical interpretation you are seeking to apply here.

 

[Aussie in exile]

When the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany began in mid 1941, the Russian Revolution had occurred only 24 years earlier. The socialist principles that animated it were still very much alive in the memory and consciousness of the Soviet working class, despite the depredations of Stalinism.

They did not fight Nazism for Stalinism, they fought for a socialist ideal, which they continued to connect with the social advances that did occur within the Soviet Union after the October Revolution, and with the struggle against oppression which was embodied within the October revolution.

Reality is much more complex than the mechanical interpretation you are seeking to apply here.

Do you want to tell us about Russia's illegal invasion with Germany of Poland at the start of the nd world war.