Autopsy Round 14, 2024 : Hawks skin Tigers

[cryptor]

It's all good.
We just see it differently.
If there was no high contact rule I just wouldn't watch the game, let alone care how one gladiator was avoiding being necked by another. To be fair, I can't watch a second of MMA for exactly that reason. I know others love it, to me it's entirely soul destroying watching human beings prepare and descend on eachother that way while being televised and egged on by millions more.

You and others see what Watto did as some enormously embarrassing act to the game, I thought it was nothing.
On the 1-100 scale of weak act to draw a free kick, it was a 3 for me. It's an imperfect game played by imperfect players, umpired imperfectly, judged by fans and onlookers imperfectly, but here we are.

Being as short as he is, you're going to hate watching his career. Those moments are unavoidable, and I guess so will be the consternation and teeth gnashing on here from many.

I don't see it as enormously embarrassing. I just think it's a bit of a cheap tactic that doesn't really follow the spirit of the game, but I can understand him using it as a crutch right now to get easier shots on goal given his wayward goal kicking in his AFL games to date.

I do expect he'll get plenty of legitimate head high frees over his AFL journey due to his height, that doesn't bother me one bit. I guarantee I'll be one of the people going off in here if they completely stop paying the legit ones to him. What I will hate watching over his career is him playing for frees at every opportunity instead of playing to his full potential creating goals from nothing like he has in junior footy and the handful of VFL games.

Just imagine how many great Buddy and Cyril highlights we'd have missed out on if they were playing for head high free kicks in every forward 50 contest instead of taking on the game and kicking miracle goals.

 

[Harper_Hawk]

Maybe we need a new thread 'Head high tackles - little peoples fault or not?"

Or just change this one to Hawks duck Tigers. Then we can have another 50 pages about short guys loving headlocks.


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[Mercy Seat]

He's a quick answer - when they duck or play for one it's their fault. When they don't, it isn't.

Simple.

I said this elsewhere today but it’s impossible for the umps to determine this in real time. So the only the way they can make the call is based on reputation of the player.

Smaller guys being tackled by someone bigger will almost always tend to go lower by default. It’s hard not to.

I said this about Selwood years ago and I’ll say it about our guys, as long as it’s not a blatant dive, I believe strongly that is should be up the tackler to be prepared for whichever way a player may try to shrug the tackle or draw a free and tackle accordingly.

 

[toomanysquibs]

Really? Didn't think there's anything in that Baker one at all

There's nothing in it, till the last second when he drives his leg into Watson to give him a shove with the bottom of his boot.

It's small, but it's there.

They're a piss weak bunch of campaigners now, I was honestly expecting a game full of cheap shots.

You can usually count on the dick toucher to whack a young player or two.

 

[Sixpence]

What do you think Watson would have done differently if there was no high contact rule to protect him? Reckon he'd have run the same line he did knowing that Vlastuin could legally clothesline him and drag him to ground by the neck to win a holding the ball call? I think he'd have tried his best to keep his distance while utilising his agility and speed to create a scoring opportunity another way.

He didn't run any line though. He didn't move from the spot he received the ball, Vlastuin ran up to him, not the other way round. All Wiz did was turn his body, which I think is reasonable.

 

[cryptor]

He didn't run any line though. He didn't move from the spot he received the ball, Vlastuin ran up to him, not the other way round. All Wiz did was turn his body, which I think is reasonable.

Ok “run” probably not the right word given it was one step, but he certainly made a move towards him (video on page 20) rather than trying to evade in any other direction.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

After watching the replay geez Tigers have some dirty players from Nank knee lining up Meek’s ribs at a centre bounce, Baker’s little horse kick into a defenceless Wiz while lying on the ground and loved the frustration and agro shown by Lynch at 3qtr time ……. knew he was doing diddly squat, beaten by talent so his dirtbag personality shone through. That crap may have worked against us in the past but not anymore!

How dare you criticise Lynch. It’s not like he left a struggling team to go to a contender, and is looking at doing the same thing again. The man’s a saint I tell you.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Playing for frees by ducking and raising the arm is not OK. Don't see Day and Duke doing it. Nor Bont or Heeney. In fact, I am of the opinion that players that do it consistently generally don't make it in the AFL. We had one a few years ago and it was embarrassing to watch. He didn't make it. I know. Just one example. Still, I think Selwood was an exception. I have no evidence but I can't think of a player in the AFL that is known to play like that. Consistently. We have a couple. Possibly. If it becomes a thing it is an issue for them and the club. You cannot possibly think that this is one of the tools in your toolbox playing high performance professional sport. Its actually amateur.

Who was said player?

 

[Sixpence]

Ok “run” probably not the right word given it was one step, but he certainly made a move towards him (video on page 20) rather than trying to evade in any other direction.

If he only has time to take one step, he's not getting very far regardless of the direction he moves. He was also hemmed up against the boundary, so had neither time nor space to do much else. I think you underestimate the speed in which Vlastuin closed the gap.

Not everyone can use Jedi mind tricks to get away from their opponents, like Day!

 

[BobHawk]

Who was said player?

I can't remember his name. Small forward. His first game was full of ducking and arm raising. It was terrible.

 

[kazzooka]

I can't remember his name. Small forward. His first game was full of ducking and arm raising. It was terrible.

Josh Morris?

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Josh Morris?

Morris was a mini-Hardwick, small defender who was good in the air defensively.

Maybe the guy that looked like Chad Wingard? He was a small forward

 

[Yardie]

I don't see it as enormously embarrassing. I just think it's a bit of a cheap tactic that doesn't really follow the spirit of the game, but I can understand him using it as a crutch right now to get easier shots on goal given his wayward goal kicking in his AFL games to date.

I do expect he'll get plenty of legitimate head high frees over his AFL journey due to his height, that doesn't bother me one bit. I guarantee I'll be one of the people going off in here if they completely stop paying the legit ones to him. What I will hate watching over his career is him playing for frees at every opportunity instead of playing to his full potential creating goals from nothing like he has in junior footy and the handful of VFL games.

Just imagine how many great Buddy and Cyril highlights we'd have missed out on if they were playing for head high free kicks in every forward 50 contest instead of taking on the game and kicking miracle goals.

Are you English?

 

[BobHawk]

Josh Morris?

I don't think it was Josh Morris. Seemed to happen quickly. He came and left. Played one or two games in the seniors.

 

[KermitJagger]

If he only has time to take one step, he's not getting very far regardless of the direction he moves. He was also hemmed up against the boundary, so had neither time nor space to do much else. I think you underestimate the speed in which Vlastuin closed the gap.

Not everyone can use Jedi mind tricks to get away from their opponents, like Day!

Pretty much every contested situation means a player has to make some sort of decision in a fraction of a second, midfielders do it 30 times a game. Compared to that Watson really has plenty of time, he doesn't just start to think about his next move when he collects the ball because he ball is in dispute between Watson and Vlastuin for a while before he collects it, draws the free and goes to ground.

Based on that I don't agree that he had no time to do anything else. You can look at Breust a few seconds before Watson's high free where he has less time, both Vlastuin and Balta are closer yet Breust wrongfoots Vlastuin enough to get himself free and get a handball over the top. With how much Vlastuin and Balta had their arms out Breust probably could have even tried to draw a free himself.

View attachment 2024-06-21_13-26-24.mp4

Being a short fella this should be an advantage of Watson. It's much easier to accelerate and find space at 167cm than it is at 191cm like Day is, he's agile, he's talented, he should find it easier to navigate congestion than Day. This line of thinking that he didn't have the time or the space to do anything is a bit insulting to the kid's talent honestly, his ability in these situations was half the reason he was rated so highly.

 

[Sixpence]

Pretty much every contested situation means a player has to make some sort of decision in a fraction of a second, midfielders do it 30 times a game. Compared to that Watson really has plenty of time, he doesn't just start to think about his next move when he collects the ball because he ball is in dispute between Watson and Vlastuin for a while before he collects it, draws the free and goes to ground.

Based on that I don't agree that he had no time to do anything else. You can look at Breust a few seconds before Watson's high free where he has less time, both Vlastuin and Balta are closer yet Breust wrongfoots Vlastuin enough to get himself free and get a handball over the top. With how much Vlastuin and Balta had their arms out Breust probably could have even tried to draw a free himself.

View attachment 2025453

Being a short fella this should be an advantage of Watson. It's much easier to accelerate and find space at 167cm than it is at 191cm like Day is, he's agile, he's talented, he should find it easier to navigate congestion than Day. This line of thinking that he didn't have the time or the space to do anything is a bit insulting to the kid's talent honestly, his ability in these situations was half the reason he was rated so highly.

Players get caught all the time, it's hardly insulting to his talent. I think it's more insulting to suggest he's doing something dodgy and expecting him to pull someone out of his ass. Literally all he has done is turned his body slightly, which he has the right to do. He was already leaning forward. Vlastuin simply needed to go even lower than he did.

Also, Day dances around opponents unlike anyone I've seen. His height is irrelevant.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Morris was a mini-Hardwick, small defender who was good in the air defensively.

Maybe the guy that looked like Chad Wingard? He was a small forward

Kade Stewart

 

[KermitJagger]

Players get caught all the time, it's hardly insulting to his talent. I think it's more insulting to suggest he's doing something dodgy and expecting him to pull someone out of his ass. Literally all he has done is turned his body slightly, which he has the right to do. He was already leaning forward. Vlastuin simply needed to go even lower than he did.

Also, Day dances around opponents unlike anyone I've seen. His height is irrelevant.

How is it insulting to expect him to do something better? I'm saying he's a great talent and a very smart footballer. I think he knows what he's doing, he knows how to draw a free and he knows that it's a better percentage shot if he does draw one. Nash seemed to be in agreement with that after the free in the first.



Feels like a much bigger underrating of his talent to suggest he just didn't have the time or the space.

 

[Sixpence]

How is it insulting to expect him to do something better? I'm saying he's a great talent and a very smart footballer. I think he knows what he's doing, he knows how to draw a free and he knows that it's a better percentage shot if he does draw one. Nash seemed to be in agreement with that after the free in the first.

View attachment 2025503

Feels like a much bigger underrating of his talent to suggest he just didn't have the time or the space.

Vlastuin hit him in the head before he lifted his arm. That had no bearing on the legitimacy on the free.

You are not simply arguing that he could have done more in that situation, you are suggesting that he has done something he shouldn't have. If it's just the arm lift you don't like, that's fine to argue, but again, he was hit before he did that.

He may have talent, but he is still only 7 games in. Maybe temper expectations a bit, taking better options comes with experience.

 

[jenniferHAWKinS]

I hate players trying to milk high free kicks but that doesn’t give the tackler the right to try and take their head off! A couple of those attempted tackles by Richmond players on the weekend were excessive and crude and should be free kicks.

 

[KermitJagger]

Vlastuin hit him in the head before he lifted his arm. That had no bearing on the legitimacy on the free.

You are not simply arguing that he could have done more in that situation, you are suggesting that he has done something he shouldn't have. If it's just the arm lift you don't like, that's fine to argue, but again, he was hit before he did that.

He may have talent, but he is still only 7 games in. Maybe temper expectations a bit, taking better options comes with experience.

You're getting fixated on the lifting of the arm, not me. It's just how Nash decided to demonstrate the drawing of the free kick. Lowering the body was always what I was referring to. Here are the frames overlayed, I used a white marking on the field and the boundary to account for camera movement.



I'm not saying that he took a bad option either, he arguably took the best. He took the option that got him a free kick and shot on goal. I'm just saying what Cryptor said, I think he took the cheaper option and it's one that I personally don't like and that the footy world at large seems to think is cheap. Then we go back to my point that if he keeps doing it, he'll get a reputation for it and then not get awarded any frees including the ones that are legitimately there.

I'd prefer to see him try something better because it'd be great as a viewer and Vlastuin's tackle was poor enough that he may have gotten taken high anyway.

 

[Turly]

Can someone please direct me to the Hawks v Tiges autopsy thread?

Can’t find the damn thing anywhere.

 

[KermitJagger]

Can someone please direct me to the Hawks v Tiges autopsy thread?

Can’t find the damn thing anywhere.

You're in the right place, we're autopsying something that happened in the Hawks v Tigers match! Lucky you asked or you might have gone somewhere else!

 

[Turly]

You're in the right place, we're autopsying something that happened in the Hawks v Tigers match! Lucky you asked or you might have gone somewhere else!

Arguing 1 incident that has gone on for pages. We won the game FFS, are absolutely flying and this is all that’s been talked about.

Surely time to move on.

 

[BobHawk]

View attachment 2025484
Kade Stewart

View attachment 2025483

Bingo.