List Mgmt. 2014 Draft Trade FA Megathread

[Barrels]

12
Nick
Riewoldt
Captain
Height
193 cm
DOB
17-10-1982
Weight
96 kg
Debut
2001

The website is categorically wrong. The naked eye alone would tell you that.

Tell me Brodie Murdoch is 78kgs...

That's Nick with his 195cm-listed cousin...

And Nick running with the 195cm-listed Brian Lake...

 

[saintsrfreak]

For the record, Murdoch's measurements must have gotten mixed up with Jimmy Webster's

 

[aussierulesrules]

"Our stated aim", "We want", at the end of the day, as badly as we want it, we will not be able to contend with the Suns and Giants in net 4-5 years. Their spine will be

May
Thompson
Swallow
Dixon
Lynch
O'Meara

There is no way we will defeat that in 2019 or so, with our currently developing youth still gaining confidence in their game. I'll back our recruiters in to find guns in the draft, and to complete smart trades, but they're expectations are clearly in place to make fans think there are only 2 (this year and next) years of absolute misery, before a gradual rise. In reality it'll be 1-2 years extra.

Many probably said the same about us, about 11 years ago (say 2003), when we had the likes of Riewoldt (pick 1), Koschitzke (pick 2), Ball (pick 2), Hayes (pick 11), X Clarke (pick 5), Dal Santo (pick 13), Goddard (pick 1), Montagna, McGuire (playing ruck and CHB at 19yo), Milne (coming off a 50 goal season in 2002, at 22yo), Baker, Blake, Penny (orig. pick 14) and Brooks (cost us picks 6 and 31, originally drafted at pick 15) coming through (all 23yo or under in 2003, with 9 of them taken in the top 15 of their draft), to join the likes of Harvey, Gehrig, Hamill, Aussie Jones, Hudghton, Thompson, Peckett, Heath Black, Voss, Powell and Lawrence (**** me we had a good list ).

Everyone was understandably raving about our "youth" and when we started 2004 with 10 straight wins, by an average of 10 goals (after having comfortably won the preseason comp), with such a young team, most were probably expecting us to win a flag or three in the near future (or at least thought we had a list capable of doing so, if they thought our culture would get in the way) and yet history tells us we of course didn't win a single flag and didn't even make a GF with that original group (and certainly weren't an "unbeatable powerhouse" or anything like that, that other clubs needed to fear) and for all we know neither Gold Coast or GWS will be either, because the strength of your list is far from the only thing that determines how much success or otherwise you will have. Plenty of other things come into it, such as game plans, injury, coaching, club culture, salary caps, etc, etc.

So I don't agree that we need to go on a 9 year rebuild, by which time any semblance of the winning culture we fought so hard to build, through not only the 2000's, but also the 1990's (when we went from a "rabble" of a club that hadn't played finals for almost a couple of decades, to almost winning a premiership and starting to really believe again that we could win big games of footy) will be long gone.

As I've said a few times recently, the teams that we see at the pointy end of the ladder and in genuine contention are generally the teams that have been thereabouts for years and years (eg. Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, Collingwood) and had very few high draft picks and the teams we see at the bottom of the ladder are also a bunch of the teams that have been around that mark for years and years (eg. Melbourne, Carlton, Richmond, Brisbane- who between them have a truckload of top 3 picks and "first rounders"- Carlton and Melbourne have something like 31 between them!). So surely that tells us something about the importance of a winning culture and how thinking that getting an armful of high draft picks, through having been around the bottom of the ladder and losing week after week, for years on end guarantees you success, is folly.

I expect Pelchen and co. to be very aggressive and creative and to find a way to get us back up there around the marks they have set and for some on our current list to really step up more than most expect them to, like say Milne, Fisher, Montagna, Gwilt and Steven (all taken pick 37 to rookie/supp list) did, in spite of the fact they weren't taken with really high draft picks.

 

[Sheeza69]

My feel is that O'Rourke is worth around a mid 10 pick, i.e. 12-15. He was rated as a 7-9 pick talent not including minidraft, so that pushes him a bit further back. Remember, GWS recruited for needs, rather than talent that year, hence Plowman was taken high as well

Yeah your right champ, they did in their second year..

 

[Sheeza69]

Many probably said the same about us, about 11 years ago (say 2003), when we had the likes of Riewoldt (pick 1), Koschitzke (pick 2), Ball (pick 2), Hayes (pick 11), X Clarke (pick 5), Dal Santo (pick 13), Goddard (pick 1), Montagna, McGuire (playing ruck and CHB at 19yo), Milne (coming off a 50 goal season in 2002, at 22yo), Baker, Blake, Penny (orig. pick 14) and Brooks (cost us picks 6 and 31, originally drafted at pick 15) coming through (all 23yo or under in 2003, with 9 of them taken in the top 15 of their draft), to join the likes of Harvey, Gehrig, Hamill, Aussie Jones, Hudghton, Thompson, Peckett, Heath Black, Voss, Powell and Lawrence (**** me we had a good list ).

Everyone was understandably raving about our "youth" and when we started 2004 with 10 straight wins, by an average of 10 goals (after having comfortably won the preseason comp), with such a young team, most were probably expecting us to win a flag or three in the near future (or at least thought we had a list capable of doing so, if they thought our culture would get in the way) and yet history tells us we of course didn't win a single flag and didn't even make a GF with that original group (and certainly weren't an "unbeatable powerhouse" or anything like that, that other clubs needed to fear) and for all we know neither Gold Coast or GWS will be either, because the strength of your list is far from the only thing that determines how much success or otherwise you will have. Plenty of other things come into it, such as game plans, injury, coaching, club culture, salary caps, etc, etc.

So I don't agree that we need to go on a 9 year rebuild, by which time any semblance of the winning culture we fought so hard to build, through not only the 2000's, but also the 1990's (when we went from a "rabble" of a club that hadn't played finals for almost a couple of decades, to almost winning a premiership and starting to really believe again that we could win big games of footy) will be long gone.

As I've said a few times recently, the teams that we see at the pointy end of the ladder and in genuine contention are generally the teams that have been thereabouts for years and years (eg. Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, Collingwood) and the teams we see at the bottom of the ladder are also a bunch of the teams that have been around that mark for years and years (eg. Melbourne, Carlton, Richmond, Brisbane- who between them have a truckload of top 3 picks and "first rounders"- Carlton and Melbourne have something like 31 between them!). So surely that tells us something about the importance of a winning culture and how thinking that getting an armful of high draft picks, through having been around the bottom of the ladder and losing week after week for years on end, guarantees you success, is folly.

Excellent post..!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm not that fussed about trading yet. Continue to go for the best draft picks we can get.
No point drafting a heap of former first rounder's who haven't met expectations yet, that will simply propel us into mediocrity.
Keep the cap low ( saves money ) , build our new list, be ruthless.
Then when we start to look likely, identify what our greatest needs are and get the best we can.
Who knows? We might need a massive forward. We might need an athletic forward. We might need a key back. We might need a great outside mid.

Carlton thought they needed Chris Judd, but by the time they looked likely to challenge there were other , greater needs.
You don't need to trade in advance.
Get trades when you need them.
Look at the Hawks.
Burgoyne has been great.
Lake might be shot but he got them a premiership.

 

[God Save Max King]

9 year rebuild? In 2011 we played a final. In 2012 we were a game outside the 8. In 2013 we admitted we were rebuilding. I estimate we will begin our push up the ladder in 2017, meaning we've been rebuilding for 2013, 14, 15 and 16. 4 years. As for the comment on our list, while that is accurate, GWS have had better draft picks more often, while Gold Coast have Ablett (arguably the Greatest Of All Time), O'Meara (a freak midfielder who will terrorize teams for the next decade) and Jack Martin, who is supposed to be better than Jaeger!

Montagna wasn't very good until 2006, Kosi, X's and Ball were crippled by injuries that couldn't have been predicted, while Maguire, Blake and Baker were picked outside the top 20. Richmond have not had a "truckload" of top 3 picks, Brisbane are down the bottom because of their incompetence off field more-so than on it.

 

[Murraj1966]

If you can make the Grand Final, you're always a chance at winning it*

Gold Coast and GWS may have all the picks but it's creating a list imbalance that will be fixed with walkouts and trades. Mav Weller was a no hoper at Gold Coast who had a ego to boot. He comes to the Saints with a straight head on and bam, he's cementing himself in the team as we speak. If O'Rourke comes to St Kilda again for the cheap who knows, we'll either get a failed punt with a low pick trade, or we get a former pick 3 living up to his potential, so the opportunities that arise from picking gold bars out of the platinum are abundant.

If we make the right calls and draft the right people instead of bemoaning our lack of number 1 picks, we will be fine and if we make a Grand Final you can be damn sure they won't just roll over because they drafted a couple of number 1 picks.

*Port Adelaide 2007 the exception

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You need to pick your drafts as well.
A first round pick isn't always worth a heap.
2003, Cooney, Walker, Sylvia and Ray. Hardly players that can launch you into a premiership.
then 2004 was only around 6 players deep.

Those would have been good years to trade, and some did. Scott Thompson for pick 13 ( Mathew Bate). Ottens to Geelong for 12 and 16 ( Meyer and Pattison ). The picks North gave up for Nathan Thompson came to nothing.
Brent Moloney was a good pickup for 12. Was Lynden Dunn worth losing Darren Jolly?

Saints have not been good at knowing who to draft, and have often traded when they should have drafted and visa versa.

 

[HayesTheChamp]

You need to pick your drafts as well.
A first round pick isn't always worth a heap.
2003, Cooney, Walker, Sylvia and Ray. Hardly players that can launch you into a premiership.
then 2004 was only around 6 players deep.

Those would have been good years to trade, and some did. Scott Thompson for pick 13 ( Mathew Bate). Ottens to Geelong for 12 and 16 ( Meyer and Pattison ). The picks North gave up for Nathan Thompson came to nothing.
Brent Moloney was a good pickup for 12. Was Lynden Dunn worth losing Darren Jolly?

Saints have not been good at knowing who to draft, and have often traded when they should have drafted and visa versa.

To be fair, Cooney was an absolute gun in 08, but his knees destroyed him for like 4-5 years.

And I think we have the right team in place now, to be more accurate at identifying the best talent at each pick. Bains, Trout and co already have some solid runs on the board, although Spencer White seems like a 'hype' based decision. Everyone else we've picked up, looks solid at minimum thus far

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

Terry Wallett had Peter Wright at Pick 5 in his rolling top 10 on TAC future stars yesterday.

So lock in Peter Wright to be an absolute gem and hopefully we take him.. Terry Wallace knows all about key forwards taken at Pick 5 for example.. Pick 4. R.Tambling - Pick 5. L.Franklin.

We also now have Pick 3 currently and i don't see that changing any differently unless we slide down to 17th or 18th. With the amount of injuries we have i cannot see us winning another game would be good if we can though but doubt it, tough second half of 2014.

 

[bird_man]

Gold Coast play very tall with Day (196), Lynch (199), Dixon (200) and Smith (205) in the same team.

Two of those guys pre-listed zone selections...And add May as another tall they got outside of the national draft....And Hickey....

GWS and Suns will have great sides no doubt, but the thing that is going to even it up is the salary cap. Do you honestly think they are going to keep that whole list, paying them all average pay to keep them together? Wont happen. The scary thing is though, when they trade players they will be getting high draft picks. So I'm not expecting them to dominate like others are, but I am expecting them to be a bloody good side for a long time.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

What was Wallets top 10 Stanley?

 

[VDS66]

GWS and Suns will have great sides no doubt, but the thing that is going to even it up is the salary cap. Do you honestly think they are going to keep that whole list, paying them all average pay to keep them together? Wont happen. The scary thing is though, when they trade players they will be getting high draft picks. So I'm not expecting them to dominate like others are, but I am expecting them to be a bloody good side for a long time.

Totally agree. You cannot keep 35 stars on your list and pay them all peanuts. some might stay if they are regular seniors and the team is enjoying success... but other will realise they only have a small window to make some decent coin, and be tempted by offers elsewhere. Buddy and ablett are 2 recent examples of this.

Something will have to give.

Also, you cannot keep 10 stars as depth players. Good players will want to play seniors and if they cannot, they will look elsewhere.

Cannot see a player who would be a walk up at 17 other clubs hang around in the 2's hoping to one day get a game.

Then you have free agency.

when you look at Geelong... they have been up and about since 2004 like we were, and have built a dynasty. Yes, father / sons etc, but even now when they should be bottoming, they are still contending. So yeah, you don't have to have the best list... strategic recruiting AND a great development program (VFL) team and they have players ready to step up as the seniors retire.

 

[Barrels]

Broken record, I know, but really keen on Murray's Joshua Schache in 2015 if we get a high pick and Weidman is gone. 197cm and 93kgs already, kicked a lazy 4 in the Bushrangers' 2-point win over Sandy Dragons on the weekend.

MMS' write-up...

Joshua Schache (Seymour/Murray Bushrangers)

Height: 196cm Weight: 89kg

Son of the late Laurance Schache a past Brisbane Bears player, Joshua is key forward with good hands and a booming kick that is also fairly agile at 196cm. An AIS/AFL Academy member, Schache has already impressed in the TAC Cup making his debut in 2013 for the Murray Bushrangers been named in the best and kicking 4 goals. Schache already with respect of his older teammates should play a key role for the Murray side this year.

 

[adambrown]

Anyone got possible names of a couple of cheap KPD depth targets from opposition clubs? It's probably more likely we'd go to the state leagues and find one.

I mentioned Cameron Delaney (Lukes younger brother) but he is highly rated at North it seems and contracted so they wouldn't let him go.

From the state leagues a couple of guys caught my eye at the Coburg v Footscray game on saturday were Michael Hartley 21yo, 198cm, 102kg's (coburg) a CHB played really well on Grant, smashed packs and had reasonable disposal , Lech Featherstone 25yo, 194cm, 97kgs (coburg) CHF presented well made the most of his opportunities, good contested mark and a nice set shot.
Heard a couple of whispers about Wallis while i was down there from a couple of the parents of players. I don't think it would be to hard to pry him away from Whitten Oval if he was a player we were interested in.

 

[drawza]

Who would we be targeting, if anyone, from other clubs. Who will we off load, delist or who will retire. Are we going to go after a tall forward and a tall back.

I think our midfield is set for the next few years, with a few obvious exceptions, I think we need to work on our backline and our fowardline. Who would you want us to go after? Who would we trade for them?

Who are we looking at picking up in the draft, no matter what picks we have, who would you like to see us pick up?

What do we have to do to get back into contention for the flag?

 

[bird_man]

Who would we be targeting, if anyone, from other clubs. Who will we off load, delist or who will retire. Are we going to go after a tall forward and a tall back.

I think our midfield is set for the next few years, with a few obvious exceptions, I think we need to work on our backline and our fowardline. Who would you want us to go after? Who would we trade for them?

Who are we looking at picking up in the draft, no matter what picks we have, who would you like to see us pick up?

What do we have to do to get back into contention for the flag?

I'd be happy if we just went into the draft with all out pick, but preferably we get another late first round or high second round pick to go with them. Might have to trade a player and a later pick to get that.

 

[HayesTheChamp]

If Wright isn't available, I'd be tempted to go with Durdin - very highly rated, we have a significant number of SA boys now, so that shouldn't be an issue, similarly he's probably undervalued at the moment due to his thumb injury and the fact that hes from SA, and he can play everywhere, shown his best nick down back (but this is simply because hes played the majority down back and through the ruck thus far) Hopefully SA chuck him up forward and we see how he goes.

 

[joop]

What was Wallets top 10 Stanley?

Can't remember the whole list, but I'm pretty sure the top 6 was:
1: mcCartin
2: Durdin
3: Brayshaw
4: ?? Heeney?
5: Wright
6: Lamb

Goddard was 8 I think. But I was very hungover so I could be wrong

 

[Baldur]

Totally agree. You cannot keep 35 stars on your list and pay them all peanuts. some might stay if they are regular seniors and the team is enjoying success... but other will realise they only have a small window to make some decent coin, and be tempted by offers elsewhere. Buddy and ablett are 2 recent examples of this.

Something will have to give.

Also, you cannot keep 10 stars as depth players. Good players will want to play seniors and if they cannot, they will look elsewhere.

Cannot see a player who would be a walk up at 17 other clubs hang around in the 2's hoping to one day get a game.

Then you have free agency.

when you look at Geelong... they have been up and about since 2004 like we were, and have built a dynasty. Yes, father / sons etc, but even now when they should be bottoming, they are still contending. So yeah, you don't have to have the best list... strategic recruiting AND a great development program (VFL) team and they have players ready to step up as the seniors retire.

Yep

If you are playing finals then you can keep 22 stars on a list, maybe a little more as some will be injuried at any one time. But players who believe they can play AFL are not going to stick around playing the local league so they can be depth.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

What was Wallets top 10 Stanley?

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

From the state leagues a couple of guys caught my eye at the Coburg v Footscray game on saturday were Michael Hartley 21yo, 198cm, 102kg's (coburg) a CHB played really well on Grant, smashed packs and had reasonable disposal , Lech Featherstone 25yo, 194cm, 97kgs (coburg) CHF presented well made the most of his opportunities, good contested mark and a nice set shot.
Heard a couple of whispers about Wallis while i was down there from a couple of the parents of players. I don't think it would be to hard to pry him away from Whitten Oval if he was a player we were interested in.

Hartley was on Pies rookie list for 3 years and had injury after injury with his shoulder i think.

 

[God Save Max King]

Ah, Josh Schache, we both share a cult following now Unc! Get aboard, the kid's huge and has been killing it.

 

[adambrown]

Hartley was on Pies rookie list for 3 years and had injury after injury with his shoulder i think.

Yep thats the bloke, played every game this season so far i think so hopefully for his sake he's over the injuries. Beat Grant convincingly and did well on Ayce Cordy, Redpath and Cambell all Doggies listed players when he was on them at different stages of the game. His attack on the ball and contest was great considering the injuries he's had